Vuc Trade Thread

[Dez]

If they hit on a lottery pick this year they would be adding them to a veteran team vs a team of youth. That's undeniable.

It would be much better to add Flagg to this current roster than a roster of nincompoops.

Now I am actually on board with your argument that it's better to trade at the very least Vuc because he won't be here long enough for the rebuild anyway and his absence likely assures our lottery pick.

Both arguments exist. And there is a continuum across their poles.

How do Vuc and Zach specifically, other than adding short term wins, help Flagg develop?

You can easily replace them with veteran mentor type players. Do you think Vuc and Zach are specifically elite at taking a guy under their wing and helping them reach their potential? I don't know that I would think that of either guy.

I'm not sure either guy is the "coach on the floor" type. Lonzo Ball would probably teach him more about basketball than these guys.

Players develop more quickly playing with better players and in meaningful games. That's the argument. AND the team as a whole is better more quickly.

Jesus Christ you cannot believe any of the things you post.

We've made the playoffs once in the AKME era and got pushed aside with ease, they haven't played a meaningful game with this group.

They need to go and start again, your delusional attempts to argue this don't change that.

[Guru]

How do Vuc and Zach specifically, other than adding short term wins, help Flagg develop?

You can easily replace them with veteran mentor type players. Do you think Vuc and Zach are specifically elite at taking a guy under their wing and helping them reach their potential? I don't know that I would think that of either guy.

I'm not sure either guy is the "coach on the floor" type. Lonzo Ball would probably teach him more about basketball than these guys.

Players develop more quickly playing with better players and in meaningful games. That's the argument. AND the team as a whole is better more quickly.

Jesus Christ you cannot believe any of the things you post.

We've made the playoffs once in the AKME era and got pushed aside with ease, they haven't played a meaningful game with this group.

They need to go and start again, your delusional attempts to argue this don't change that.

Because this team hasn't been to the playoffs or played a meaningful game you have to get rid of all the players and start with all new players.......That's an illogical gobbledygook.

[Dan Z]

If I made a list of players on the Bulls and ranked them based on the priority to trade them...Vucevic would be #1 right?

He's 34 years old and having a career yer, which might not last.

I think even if the assets you get back aren't ideal that you still trade him. Going into next season with Vucevic doesn't make sense.

[2weekswithpay]

If they hit on a lottery pick this year they would be adding them to a veteran team vs a team of youth. That's undeniable.

It would be much better to add Flagg to this current roster than a roster of nincompoops.

Now I am actually on board with your argument that it's better to trade at the very least Vuc because he won't be here long enough for the rebuild anyway and his absence likely assures our lottery pick.

Both arguments exist. And there is a continuum across their poles.

How do Vuc and Zach specifically, other than adding short term wins, help Flagg develop?

You can easily replace them with veteran mentor type players. Do you think Vuc and Zach are specifically elite at taking a guy under their wing and helping them reach their potential? I don't know that I would think that of either guy.

I'm not sure either guy is the "coach on the floor" type. Lonzo Ball would probably teach him more about basketball than these guys.

Players develop more quickly playing with better players and in meaningful games. That's the argument. AND the team as a whole is better more quickly.

Any proof of this?

[SirKaiser]

How do Vuc and Zach specifically, other than adding short term wins, help Flagg develop?

You can easily replace them with veteran mentor type players. Do you think Vuc and Zach are specifically elite at taking a guy under their wing and helping them reach their potential? I don't know that I would think that of either guy.

I'm not sure either guy is the "coach on the floor" type. Lonzo Ball would probably teach him more about basketball than these guys.

Players develop more quickly playing with better players and in meaningful games. That's the argument. AND the team as a whole is better more quickly.

Any proof of this?

You're asking for proof of a younger talent benefitting from a mentor? Some of you are so frantic about burning it all down and starting anew (which you're kidding yourselves if you think they'll do this) that you're losing sight of common sense.

How about Rajon Rondo? He made an immediate impact thanks to Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, and in return he helped elevate their game as they got older. Tyrese Maxey is a more recent example.

[League Circles]

If I made a list of players on the Bulls and ranked them based on the priority to trade them...Vucevic would be #1 right?

He's 34 years old and having a career yer, which might not last.

I think even if the assets you get back aren't ideal that you still trade him. Going into next season with Vucevic doesn't make sense.

I think a relatively strong argument can now be made that Patrick Williams is the most important to trade, but vouch would probably be second.

[Dan Z]

If I made a list of players on the Bulls and ranked them based on the priority to trade them...Vucevic would be #1 right?

He's 34 years old and having a career yer, which might not last.

I think even if the assets you get back aren't ideal that you still trade him. Going into next season with Vucevic doesn't make sense.

I think a relatively strong argument can now be made that Patrick Williams is the most important to trade, but vouch would probably be second.

Is that because of PW's poor performance and his contract? You don't think he might improve a bit as the season goes on?

I'm all for them trading PW too.

[drosestruts]

I think it's pretty common knowledge that young players benefit from having good, knowledgeable veterans around. Especially those that can still positively contribute on the court.

Some recent examples include:

CP3 and Barnes in San Amntonio

FVV and Brooks in Houston

Harris and Beasley in Detroit

Conley and ,even for all the hate he gets, Gobert in Minnesota

Kyrie in Dallas



You might not think much of our young players, it's all pretty subjective. But I bet they'd be worse if we didn't have guys like DeRoxan here the past three years.

As Bulls fans I feel like we went through this with too young of a roster (and a bad coach) when we had Dunn, Coby, Lauri, Zach and Wendell Carter. That era would have greatly benefited from a CP3, FVV, Conley, or Kyrie. Instead we had Satorasnky as our veteran point guard.

[dougthonus]

You're asking for proof of a younger talent benefitting from a mentor? Some of you are so frantic about burning it all down and starting anew (which you're kidding yourselves if you think they'll do this) that you're losing sight of common sense.

How about Rajon Rondo? He made an immediate impact thanks to Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, and in return he helped elevate their game as they got older. Tyrese Maxey is a more recent example.

Do you think someone is a mentor because they score a lot of points at good efficiency? I don't think that makes someone a mentor.

You can find great mentors at any price level, and in a world where every player has an agent that provides full financial services advice, a personal trainer that manages their personal workouts, the team provides a corporate chef, and a coaching/training staff that has a greater than 1:1 ratio of coaches:players, I'm not sure that "player mentor" is really the thing that moves the needle in a meaningful way.

To the extent it does move the needle in a meaningful way, I'm not sure the type of mentorship that does move the needle necessarily comes from a guy whom happens to be individually great vs the guy that really helps someone navigate whatever they had to navigate. DeMar DeRozan was known as an amazing mentor and took a particular interest in Pat Williams from what we can tell, and he still stinks.

Are any of your players today saying thank god for Zach/Vuc, we'd be nothing without those guys? And even if they were, would you believe that what they do on a mentorship level is really that unique?

Why do you credit Rondo/Maxey's success to other players vs themselves, other coaches, other supporters? How did Michael Jordan and LeBron James ever make it without great mentorship in this case?

There is a difference between a player developing better due to the existence of another player on the roster, and a team being better because of the existence of a player on the roster. I find it hard to believe that Zach/Vuc on the roster make even a 1% difference in the development of future players vs replacement players we will bring in given all the other support staff around and the general view that 95% of how a player develops is already on the player and not the environment anyway.

[Guru]

It's not just mentoring. It's being a model of professionalism on and off the court. When it's just a bunch of young ragamuffins they don't have anyone to see how to be a pro.

Additionally, you are put in better places to succeed on the court. If the other 4 players are in the right spot you are more likely to realize that you are not...etc. et al....Its getting a pass in your hands correctly on the post, or when shooting or on the lob. It's playing in meaningful games more quickly.

Now don't get me wrong, I think the path of tearing it all down is an option. I just don't think it's the wisest nor the one I would be advocating for. I think you go Lavine-Buz-Lotto Pick-Find a bouncy Center and whatever is left over and start building from there.

[League Circles]

If I made a list of players on the Bulls and ranked them based on the priority to trade them...Vucevic would be #1 right?

He's 34 years old and having a career yer, which might not last.

I think even if the assets you get back aren't ideal that you still trade him. Going into next season with Vucevic doesn't make sense.

I think a relatively strong argument can now be made that Patrick Williams is the most important to trade, but vouch would probably be second.

Is that because of PW's poor performance and his contract? You don't think he might improve a bit as the season goes on?

I'm all for them trading PW too.

Yeah it's mostly the length of his contract. I do think it's likely he'll improve, so I don't think it's ultra critical that we dump him, but I think the risks outweigh the potential reward with him now. I was a pretty big supporter of his previously but even I didn't like his contract when it was signed, let alone now.

[League Circles]

You're asking for proof of a younger talent benefitting from a mentor? Some of you are so frantic about burning it all down and starting anew (which you're kidding yourselves if you think they'll do this) that you're losing sight of common sense.

How about Rajon Rondo? He made an immediate impact thanks to Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, and in return he helped elevate their game as they got older. Tyrese Maxey is a more recent example.

Do you think someone is a mentor because they score a lot of points at good efficiency? I don't think that makes someone a mentor.

You can find great mentors at any price level, and in a world where every player has an agent that provides full financial services advice, a personal trainer that manages their personal workouts, the team provides a corporate chef, and a coaching/training staff that has a greater than 1:1 ratio of coaches:players, I'm not sure that "player mentor" is really the thing that moves the needle in a meaningful way.

To the extent it does move the needle in a meaningful way, I'm not sure the type of mentorship that does move the needle necessarily comes from a guy whom happens to be individually great vs the guy that really helps someone navigate whatever they had to navigate. DeMar DeRozan was known as an amazing mentor and took a particular interest in Pat Williams from what we can tell, and he still stinks.

Are any of your players today saying thank god for Zach/Vuc, we'd be nothing without those guys? And even if they were, would you believe that what they do on a mentorship level is really that unique?

Why do you credit Rondo/Maxey's success to other players vs themselves, other coaches, other supporters? How did Michael Jordan and LeBron James ever make it without great mentorship in this case?

There is a difference between a player developing better due to the existence of another player on the roster, and a team being better because of the existence of a player on the roster. I find it hard to believe that Zach/Vuc on the roster make even a 1% difference in the development of future players vs replacement players we will bring in given all the other support staff around and the general view that 95% of how a player develops is already on the player and not the environment anyway.

IMO it's not so much "mentoring" but rather just being on a squad that has something approaching a sane structure/hierarchy and is trying to win games in a way that often works. Being part of a functioning nba roster is better for player development than the free for all talent show type atmosphere that you usually see with super bad (tanking) teams. We saw that in the early 2000s. Who knows if guys like Curry, JayWill, Crawford, Fizer, Chandler etc might have become something different and better for us if they weren't playing on a terrible team with an excessive number of very young players all trying to make a name for themselves.

[Dan Z]

You're asking for proof of a younger talent benefitting from a mentor? Some of you are so frantic about burning it all down and starting anew (which you're kidding yourselves if you think they'll do this) that you're losing sight of common sense.

How about Rajon Rondo? He made an immediate impact thanks to Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, and in return he helped elevate their game as they got older. Tyrese Maxey is a more recent example.

Do you think someone is a mentor because they score a lot of points at good efficiency? I don't think that makes someone a mentor.

You can find great mentors at any price level, and in a world where every player has an agent that provides full financial services advice, a personal trainer that manages their personal workouts, the team provides a corporate chef, and a coaching/training staff that has a greater than 1:1 ratio of coaches:players, I'm not sure that "player mentor" is really the thing that moves the needle in a meaningful way.

To the extent it does move the needle in a meaningful way, I'm not sure the type of mentorship that does move the needle necessarily comes from a guy whom happens to be individually great vs the guy that really helps someone navigate whatever they had to navigate. DeMar DeRozan was known as an amazing mentor and took a particular interest in Pat Williams from what we can tell, and he still stinks.

Are any of your players today saying thank god for Zach/Vuc, we'd be nothing without those guys? And even if they were, would you believe that what they do on a mentorship level is really that unique?

Why do you credit Rondo/Maxey's success to other players vs themselves, other coaches, other supporters? How did Michael Jordan and LeBron James ever make it without great mentorship in this case?

There is a difference between a player developing better due to the existence of another player on the roster, and a team being better because of the existence of a player on the roster. I find it hard to believe that Zach/Vuc on the roster make even a 1% difference in the development of future players vs replacement players we will bring in given all the other support staff around and the general view that 95% of how a player develops is already on the player and not the environment anyway.

What would Michael Jordan's career look like if not for Quintin Daily's mentorship?

[dougthonus]

IMO it's not so much "mentoring" but rather just being on a squad that has something approaching a sane structure/hierarchy and is trying to win games in a way that often works. Being part of a functioning nba roster is better for player development than the free for all talent show type atmosphere that you usually see with super bad (tanking) teams. We saw that in the early 2000s. Who knows if guys like Curry, JayWill, Crawford, Fizer, Chandler etc might have become something different and better for us if they weren't playing on a terrible team with an excessive number of very young players all trying to make a name for themselves.

Yeah, just not really sure I believe any of that. All of those players you mentioned have a lot of history afterwards that would suggest what happened at the beginning didn't meaningfully alter the end, unless you think that if they just didn't learn at 20 that they'd never have another chance.

I also don't think this roster becomes non functional without Zach/Vuc vs the replacement guys they bring in.

[SirKaiser]

You're asking for proof of a younger talent benefitting from a mentor? Some of you are so frantic about burning it all down and starting anew (which you're kidding yourselves if you think they'll do this) that you're losing sight of common sense.

How about Rajon Rondo? He made an immediate impact thanks to Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, and in return he helped elevate their game as they got older. Tyrese Maxey is a more recent example.

Do you think someone is a mentor because they score a lot of points at good efficiency? I don't think that makes someone a mentor.

You can find great mentors at any price level, and in a world where every player has an agent that provides full financial services advice, a personal trainer that manages their personal workouts, the team provides a corporate chef, and a coaching/training staff that has a greater than 1:1 ratio of coaches:players, I'm not sure that "player mentor" is really the thing that moves the needle in a meaningful way.

To the extent it does move the needle in a meaningful way, I'm not sure the type of mentorship that does move the needle necessarily comes from a guy whom happens to be individually great vs the guy that really helps someone navigate whatever they had to navigate. DeMar DeRozan was known as an amazing mentor and took a particular interest in Pat Williams from what we can tell, and he still stinks.

Are any of your players today saying thank god for Zach/Vuc, we'd be nothing without those guys? And even if they were, would you believe that what they do on a mentorship level is really that unique?

Why do you credit Rondo/Maxey's success to other players vs themselves, other coaches, other supporters? How did Michael Jordan and LeBron James ever make it without great mentorship in this case?

There is a difference between a player developing better due to the existence of another player on the roster, and a team being better because of the existence of a player on the roster. I find it hard to believe that Zach/Vuc on the roster make even a 1% difference in the development of future players vs replacement players we will bring in given all the other support staff around and the general view that 95% of how a player develops is already on the player and not the environment anyway.

I'm just arguing against the alternative of letting a rookie/soph roster of 20 year old guys run wild is a better vision. I won't argue, however, that this matters on an individual level. Guys like Allen and Pierce are legends, and they were part of a successful organization as a whole. At the very least it needs to be someone who adds toward a better team culture going forward. This team and organization has been garbage but Demar stood out as a good mentor and locker room guy, but unfortunately his skill set on the court contrasted with the style we wanted. It actually makes me wonder if his absence can be a reason for PWill'd horrible season. It would be silly of course, but he has personally credited Demar as being a good mentor.

For me, it comes down to Lavine and Ball (depending on whether he will sign some kind of team-friendly deal). Lavine is debatable, but his talen is unquestionable. When not injured, he has been the best sports star in the city for a while now. And whatever the reason is, he's been a good sport amidst trade talks, unlike Jimmy. If only his value wasn't lower than it should be.

[Dez]

Players develop more quickly playing with better players and in meaningful games. That's the argument. AND the team as a whole is better more quickly.

Jesus Christ you cannot believe any of the things you post.

We've made the playoffs once in the AKME era and got pushed aside with ease, they haven't played a meaningful game with this group.

They need to go and start again, your delusional attempts to argue this don't change that.

Because this team hasn't been to the playoffs or played a meaningful game you have to get rid of all the players and start with all new players.......That's an illogical gobbledygook.

F*** me.

Yes it does because those players aren't good enough and their contracts prohibit the team from doing anything to make the team better.

You are literally the only person who is being illogical.

[SirKaiser]

Also, God forbid we have someone other than Matas who is fun to watch

[Guru]

Jesus Christ you cannot believe any of the things you post.

We've made the playoffs once in the AKME era and got pushed aside with ease, they haven't played a meaningful game with this group.

They need to go and start again, your delusional attempts to argue this don't change that.

Because this team hasn't been to the playoffs or played a meaningful game you have to get rid of all the players and start with all new players.......That's an illogical gobbledygook.

F*** me.

Yes it does because those players aren't good enough and their contracts prohibit the team from doing anything to make the team better.

You are literally the only person who is being illogical.

You think I'm the only one who is advocating to keep Lavine?

[Andi Obst]

There's no way people are talking themselves into building a team around Vuc and Zach again.

I don't know if that's hilarious or really sad or both.

Yeah, pretty sure no one has suggested that. Keeping a player does not equal "building around".

Who are you building around then? Where are the players you build around coming from?

Your picks aren't going to be good enough and free agency won't be an option either.

[Dez]

Because this team hasn't been to the playoffs or played a meaningful game you have to get rid of all the players and start with all new players.......That's an illogical gobbledygook.

F*** me.

Yes it does because those players aren't good enough and their contracts prohibit the team from doing anything to make the team better.

You are literally the only person who is being illogical.

You think I'm the only one who is advocating to keep Lavine?

You're in the minority but you're the only one making nonsensical "arguments".