Cowley: Bulls Zoned in on Demin at 12

[jnrjr79]

genuinely appreciate the replies to that

i guess i can conceive of an outcome where the shot develops, and maybe that plus the passing unlocks room for him to operate inside the arc (but even if not you can get something out of a big connector who’s a shooting threat). and then on the other end it’s not hard to imagine the size + effort producing a solid-to-plus defender

this will greatly help my coping in the event we do end up taking him

Bear in mind, I absolutely understand why people don’t want to draft Demin. As Doug said earlier in the thread, it’s hard to imagine a player who “fits” needs less than Demin. And I more or less agree with that.

I think you'd agree with this, but your use of "needs" here is in the context of what would complement the current roster. But in my view, the fit of the current roster is effectively meaningless, because what the Bulls need is high-level talent. So, fit be damned. Just make the best upside pick you can. I suppose I would have some degree of trepidation of picking someone you thought for some reason could absolutely not play with Matas, but that's about it IMO.

[DuckIII]

Let’s not forget Lonzo is still here too. Him Giddey and Denim ? the ball movement with those 3 would be sick

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

Strongly disagree. None of these guys are ball dominant. They are all quick decision makers with the ball. It could be wild. I don’t think any team would have ever had 3 guys like that all at once.

Might not work, but I don’t think the reason will be based on having too many guys with the ball.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Let’s not forget Lonzo is still here too. Him Giddey and Denim ? the ball movement with those 3 would be sick

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

The ball doesnt stick in their hands. They’re high IQ players. Ever play with a lot of guys that can really pass the Rock? it’s a beautiful thing. Growing up I played with 5 brothers that were like that. They’d run the court all night.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Let’s not forget Lonzo is still here too. Him Giddey and Denim ? the ball movement with those 3 would be sick

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

Strongly disagree. None of these guys are ball dominant. They are all quick decision makers with the ball. It could be wild. I don’t think any team would have ever had 3 guys like that all at once.

Might not work, but I don’t think the reason will be based on having too many guys with the ball.

I remember some of those Spurs teams where it would be Parker Ginobli Diaw and Duncan - that ball movement was so beautiful.

[League Circles]

Let’s not forget Lonzo is still here too. Him Giddey and Denim ? the ball movement with those 3 would be sick

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

Strongly disagree. None of these guys are ball dominant. They are all quick decision makers with the ball. It could be wild. I don’t think any team would have ever had 3 guys like that all at once.

Might not work, but I don’t think the reason will be based on having too many guys with the ball.

I didn't phrase my concern that well. An exaggerated vision of what I'm imagining is too many guys inclined to make too many (admittedly good) passes, not enough guys providing crucial spacing and finishing of scores.

Tbh IMO Ball has a lot to prove offensively and of course durability wise. I don't see him as the spacing threat that some may, and of course Giddey doesn't create space. Demin doesn't project as a good shooter from what little I know. He could perhaps be most talented player available at 12, but IMO it would be too unlikely that he reaches his potential on our roster or help us enough. I'm a big believer that context and opportunity creates the perception of player caliber, so I definitely don't believe in just randomly taking BPA and figuring it out later. Cause to me, that means either letting Giddey walk or watching him or Demin degrade in value pretty quickly.

[DuckIII]

Let’s not forget Lonzo is still here too. Him Giddey and Denim ? the ball movement with those 3 would be sick

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

The ball doesnt stick in their hands. They’re high IQ players. Ever play with a lot of guys that can really pass the Rock? it’s a beautiful thing. Growing up I played with 5 brothers that were like that. They’d run the court all night.

I’m imagining something like the early 2000s Kings but in a run and gun form. Pinball movement.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

Strongly disagree. None of these guys are ball dominant. They are all quick decision makers with the ball. It could be wild. I don’t think any team would have ever had 3 guys like that all at once.

Might not work, but I don’t think the reason will be based on having too many guys with the ball.

I didn't phrase my concern that well. An exaggerated vision of what I'm imagining is too many guys inclined to make too many (admittedly good) passes, not enough guys providing crucial spacing and finishing of scores.

Tbh IMO Ball has a lot to prove offensively and of course durability wise. I don't see him as the spacing threat that some may, and of course Giddey doesn't create space. Demin doesn't project as a good shooter from what little I know. He could perhaps be most talented player available at 12, but IMO it would be too unlikely that he reaches his potential on our roster or help us enough. I'm a big believer that context and opportunity creates the perception of player caliber, so I definitely don't believe in just randomly taking BPA and figuring it out later. Cause to me, that means either letting Giddey walk or watching him or Demin degrade in value pretty quickly.

Ball movement like that leads to easy look and jump shots. Weakside action - backdoor cuts - baseline creeper action like Ronnie Brewer used to do so well - give and go layups. Playing like that guys don’t stand around and everyone’s shots get easier.

And on the break it’ll be insane

[JohnnyKILLroy]

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

The ball doesnt stick in their hands. They’re high IQ players. Ever play with a lot of guys that can really pass the Rock? it’s a beautiful thing. Growing up I played with 5 brothers that were like that. They’d run the court all night.

I’m imagining something like the early 2000s Kings but in a run and gun form. Pinball movement.

Great call on the Kings. Wasn’t that Adelman’s version of the Princeton offense?
Correction Adelman even had Pete Carill on that staff

[League Circles]

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

The ball doesnt stick in their hands. They’re high IQ players. Ever play with a lot of guys that can really pass the Rock? it’s a beautiful thing. Growing up I played with 5 brothers that were like that. They’d run the court all night.

I’m imagining something like the early 2000s Kings but in a run and gun form. Pinball movement.

Interesting example. They did indeed have several great passers, but most of them were also good scorers to capitalize on those passes, and/or better defenders than Giddey and Demin project to be. Also, I hated those teams lol. But I respect them and your vision.

[Andi Obst]

Demin is the only guy in our range that I would absolutely hate for the Bulls, so of course they want him. We have a much better version of Demin at home. I don't get it.

[Almost Retired]

The BPA argument only goes so far with regard to the #12 pick. There are a dozen guys that are going to be available to us. All of them have strengths and weaknesses. I could make a case for a lot of them, but there isn't a definite "can't miss" prospect. So I think we should draft with the idea of filling our two most glaring weaknesses...a legit "4" or a rim running, rim protecting center with length and a motor. So we have to consider Sorber, Newell, Beringer, Fleming, Wolf...or if we can trade down or add an extra late 1st from Brooklyn then Kalkenbrenner, Zikarsky, or Raynaud. PWill was a total bust, a mistake that was compounded by giving him an extension. Matas can play the "3" and create mismatches from there. We need some size that can defend and rebound.

[Jvaughn]

Demin is the only guy in our range that I would absolutely hate for the Bulls, so of course they want him. We have a much better version of Demin at home. I don't get it.

The ball creativity at that size is very alluring. He has his faults (shooting and defense) but we've seen similar archetypes be successful at the next level. I saw someone give a comp of Luka without the jumpshot. I definitely don't agree with that, but I see the vision they saw.

I'd say he's more like a less athletic Deni Avidja. He came in with his shooting issues, but nothing mechanically was broken. Last 2 seasons, he's been solid from deep. If you believe Demin's shot is fixable, the. He suddenly becomes an elite talent.

[pipfan]

The BPA argument only goes so far with regard to the #12 pick. There are a dozen guys that are going to be available to us. All of them have strengths and weaknesses. I could make a case for a lot of them, but there isn't a definite "can't miss" prospect. So I think we should draft with the idea of filling our two most glaring weaknesses...a legit "4" or a rim running, rim protecting center with length and a motor. So we have to consider Sorber, Newell, Beringer, Fleming, Wolf...or if we can trade down or add an extra late 1st from Brooklyn then Kalkenbrenner, Zikarsky, or Raynaud. PWill was a total bust, a mistake that was compounded by giving him an extension. Matas can play the "3" and create mismatches from there. We need some size that can defend and rebound.

If we stay at 12, I really like Newell. We should play bigger, and Matas/Newell could be an awesome pair of forwards for a decade. PWill and others fine for the bench for now

[Andi Obst]

Demin is the only guy in our range that I would absolutely hate for the Bulls, so of course they want him. We have a much better version of Demin at home. I don't get it.

The ball creativity at that size is very alluring. He has his faults (shooting and defense) but we've seen similar archetypes be successful at the next level. I saw someone give a comp of Luka without the jumpshot. I definitely don't agree with that, but I see the vision they saw.

I'd say he's more like a less athletic Deni Avidja. He came in with his shooting issues, but nothing mechanically was broken. Last 2 seasons, he's been solid from deep. If you believe Demin's shot is fixable, the. He suddenly becomes an elite talent.

No because he still isn't fast enough and/or still doesn't have a good enough handle to blow by his defenders. His passing just won't be functional if he can't put pressure on defenses. The biggest diference between Demin and Luka is not shooting, it's Luka's elite craftiness and handle. Right now, Demin can't shoot, he can't dribble, he isn't fast or strong...he's the ultimate "leave him wide open because there's nothing he can do about it" kind of guy. People just love the idea of tall lead "guards". The idea of Demin is so much better than the actual player, though. And even if you believe that Demin can ultimately become a really good player, putting him next to Giddey is just awful roster construction. You're going to hurt the development of both players by putting two young guys with such similar strengths and weaknesses next to each other.

Maybe I look ridiculous for this in a couple of years, but I don't get how Demin's draft stock is trending UP and not down. Makes no sense to me.

[kodo]

Demin is the only guy in our range that I would absolutely hate for the Bulls, so of course they want him. We have a much better version of Demin at home. I don't get it.

The ball creativity at that size is very alluring. He has his faults (shooting and defense) but we've seen similar archetypes be successful at the next level. I saw someone give a comp of Luka without the jumpshot. I definitely don't agree with that, but I see the vision they saw.

I'd say he's more like a less athletic Deni Avidja. He came in with his shooting issues, but nothing mechanically was broken. Last 2 seasons, he's been solid from deep. If you believe Demin's shot is fixable, the. He suddenly becomes an elite talent.

Saw in an interview he studies Deni. Deni is a mix of off-ball movement, cutting, wide open 3 shooting, and passing. He's not a Harden or Luka that you give the ball with a standing dribble at the top of the key and his 4 teammates just clear out for him.

That being said the fit with Chicago is still awful, BPA will be pushed the limit if he's still there at 12.

KC hasn't confirmed we've even talked to Demin.

[Chi town]

Demin is the only guy in our range that I would absolutely hate for the Bulls, so of course they want him. We have a much better version of Demin at home. I don't get it.

The ball creativity at that size is very alluring. He has his faults (shooting and defense) but we've seen similar archetypes be successful at the next level. I saw someone give a comp of Luka without the jumpshot. I definitely don't agree with that, but I see the vision they saw.

I'd say he's more like a less athletic Deni Avidja. He came in with his shooting issues, but nothing mechanically was broken. Last 2 seasons, he's been solid from deep. If you believe Demin's shot is fixable, the. He suddenly becomes an elite talent.

No because he still isn't fast enough and/or still doesn't have a good enough handle to blow by his defenders. His passing just won't be functional if he can't put pressure on defenses. The biggest diference between Demin and Luka is not shooting, it's Luka's elite craftiness and handle. Right now, Demin can't shoot, he can't dribble, he isn't fast or strong...he's the ultimate "leave him wide open because there's nothing he can do about it" kind of guy. People just love the idea of tall lead "guards". The idea of Demin is so much better than the actual player, though. And even if you believe that Demin can ultimately become a really good player, putting him next to Giddey is just awful roster construction. You're going to hurt the development of both players by putting two young guys with such similar strengths and weaknesses next to each other.

Maybe I look ridiculous for this in a couple of years, but I don't get how Demin's draft stock is trending UP and not down. Makes no sense to me.

This is where I’m at. If he can’t shoot he doesn’t have the juice to get his own shot or make something happen with a PNR. We do play fast so he would still add value passing with pace.

I do believe in his shot and think he will be a plus movement shooter similar to Huerter. Think he becomes a taller Huerter with less D.

Deni blew up end of last season. He plays bully ball and plays downhill. Demin doesn’t have the muscle or the edge to play that way.

My biggest issue with Demin is his motor and edge. He has none. So similar to Pat. Passive.

I’ll take someone that’s a better fit with an edge and motor with a tad bit less talent everytime.

[Hangtime84]

The ball doesnt stick in their hands. They’re high IQ players. Ever play with a lot of guys that can really pass the Rock? it’s a beautiful thing. Growing up I played with 5 brothers that were like that. They’d run the court all night.

I’m imagining something like the early 2000s Kings but in a run and gun form. Pinball movement.

Interesting example. They did indeed have several great passers, but most of them were also good scorers to capitalize on those passes, and/or better defenders than Giddey and Demin project to be. Also, I hated those teams lol. But I respect them and your vision.

Chicago will have positional size at almost every position on the floor minus center assuming the worst if Vuc is still here.

[Chi town]

I’m imagining something like the early 2000s Kings but in a run and gun form. Pinball movement.

Interesting example. They did indeed have several great passers, but most of them were also good scorers to capitalize on those passes, and/or better defenders than Giddey and Demin project to be. Also, I hated those teams lol. But I respect them and your vision.

Chicago will have positional size at almost every position on the floor minus center assuming the worst if Vuc is still here.

Bilkybdiesnt many it though. He always prefers to go small.

[ThisGuyFawkes]

What if we trade Coby and Port pick for Deni. Draft Egor. Trot out Huerter/Avidja/Giddey/Demin/Matas ? The whitest starting lineup since the 1940's.

[Almost Retired]

What if we trade Coby and Port pick for Deni. Draft Egor. Trot out Huerter/Avidja/Giddey/Demin/Matas ? The whitest starting lineup since the 1940's.

Adolph Rupp approves.