Trade Derrick Rose

[DuckIII]

What if we traded to get BG back on the bulls.

Hmmm. It might just be crazy enough to work!

Problems:

Impossibility.

Unless Noah is coming to Detroit, its not happening...

There are maaaaaaaaany reasons why its not happening.

[wardevil]

Rose needs a tough love coach, someone who is not afraid to push him (aka Chauncey Billups) and don't care about his stature as the franchise or hurting his feelings... and right now noone in the Bulls organization is that.

I think it happens normally to young people... in their performance no matter what they do... basketball, jobs, studies... they need to be pushed until they learn how to push themselves. Right now, Rose needs to be pushed.

I think he'll be fine. Rose is the least of your problems right now. You need not only the right talent to surround him, but the right people as well... the people who care about the young players and are willing to take them under their wings and teach (push) them the right way.

Rose does not have the talent to build a team around, he can be a major contributor,but if Rose is your first option your team will suck!

[boogydown]

There are just as good options out there to replace Ben Gordon.

- Rudy Fernedez
- Anthony Morrow
- Kevin Martin

All which maybe available.

[Beryl 96]

None of those options are as good...they are pretty legit replacements, but not as good, I guess some people could make a case for Kevin Martin. Right now, it really seems like it would be nice to have a certain strong willed, hard working, cold blooded midget SG to among other things set a bit of an example for Rose...

Trading Rose though, I mean sure if the right package comes along...but its nothing we should look heavily into, and I'd likely want another servicable player to come along with the elite player, likely from a third team. That said, this more than likely won't be happening, so lets look into more realistic and likely more useful options, like turning Hinrich, Deng, Tyrus, Salmons, Miller into some combination of Amare, J Rich, Gortat, Courtney Lee, and other players I don't feel like thinking of at the moment because I just got bored and it'll remind of how badly constructed this stupid roster is. And to think some were optimistic about all the balance and whatnot that plagues this roster now.

[rose2tyrus]

getting CP3 for rose would be the only option...

then go for lebron in 2010...

then WOW, CP3+Bron=SCARY

[Vicino]

Some posters say "that won't happen...he's the franchises' star pony...."

Its not IF they're going to trade Rose (which its obvious they won't), its that they SHOULD.

Ship Rose and a big contract (preferably Deng) for a real Solid young player and a top 3 pick.

Rose and Deng to Memphis for Mayo + Randolph & 2010 unprotected 1st rounder.
Rose to Sacramento for Evans & 2010 unprotected 1st rounder.

Bottom line is Rose still has unbelievably high value around the league. However I would think most Bulls fans that watch him every game are souring on him as the games pass.

No matter what tools this guy has...he doesn't have the balls to be the man on any team let alone a major market like Chicago.

Say what you want about Iverson, but maybe he would've taught Rose how to play with passion, grit, and a little selfishness.

Ugh.

Ugh Killa...great feedback

[alucryts]

Some posters say "that won't happen...he's the franchises' star pony...."

Its not IF they're going to trade Rose (which its obvious they won't), its that they SHOULD.

Ship Rose and a big contract (preferably Deng) for a real Solid young player and a top 3 pick.

Rose and Deng to Memphis for Mayo + Randolph & 2010 unprotected 1st rounder.
Rose to Sacramento for Evans & 2010 unprotected 1st rounder.

Bottom line is Rose still has unbelievably high value around the league. However I would think most Bulls fans that watch him every game are souring on him as the games pass.

No matter what tools this guy has...he doesn't have the balls to be the man on any team let alone a major market like Chicago.

Say what you want about Iverson, but maybe he would've taught Rose how to play with passion, grit, and a little selfishness.

[Wizard Sleeve]

Some posters say "that won't happen...he's the franchises' star pony...."

Its not IF they're going to trade Rose (which its obvious they won't), its that they SHOULD.

Ship Rose and a big contract (preferably Deng) for a real Solid young player and a top 3 pick.

Rose and Deng to Memphis for Mayo + Randolph & 2010 unprotected 1st rounder.
Rose to Sacramento for Evans & 2010 unprotected 1st rounder.

Bottom line is Rose still has unbelievably high value around the league. However I would think most Bulls fans that watch him every game are souring on him as the games pass.

No matter what tools this guy has...he doesn't have the balls to be the man on any team let alone a major market like Chicago.

Say what you want about Iverson, but maybe he would've taught Rose how to play with passion, grit, and a little selfishness.

Ugh.

Seconded on the ugh.

[fisher]

Rose needs a tough love coach, someone who is not afraid to push him (aka Chauncey Billups) and don't care about his stature as the franchise or hurting his feelings... and right now noone in the Bulls organization is that.

I think it happens normally to young people... in their performance no matter what they do... basketball, jobs, studies... they need to be pushed until they learn how to push themselves. Right now, Rose needs to be pushed.

I think he'll be fine. Rose is the least of your problems right now. You need not only the right talent to surround him, but the right people as well... the people who care about the young players and are willing to take them under their wings and teach (push) them the right way.

Rose does not have the talent to build a team around, he can be a major contributor,but if Rose is your first option your team will suck!

How can anyone know this?

[alucryts]

Some posters say "that won't happen...he's the franchises' star pony...."

Its not IF they're going to trade Rose (which its obvious they won't), its that they SHOULD.

Ship Rose and a big contract (preferably Deng) for a real Solid young player and a top 3 pick.

Rose and Deng to Memphis for Mayo + Randolph & 2010 unprotected 1st rounder.
Rose to Sacramento for Evans & 2010 unprotected 1st rounder.

Bottom line is Rose still has unbelievably high value around the league. However I would think most Bulls fans that watch him every game are souring on him as the games pass.

No matter what tools this guy has...he doesn't have the balls to be the man on any team let alone a major market like Chicago.

Say what you want about Iverson, but maybe he would've taught Rose how to play with passion, grit, and a little selfishness.

Ugh.

Seconded on the ugh.

thirded!!!

[alucryts]

Rose needs a tough love coach, someone who is not afraid to push him (aka Chauncey Billups) and don't care about his stature as the franchise or hurting his feelings... and right now noone in the Bulls organization is that.

I think it happens normally to young people... in their performance no matter what they do... basketball, jobs, studies... they need to be pushed until they learn how to push themselves. Right now, Rose needs to be pushed.

I think he'll be fine. Rose is the least of your problems right now. You need not only the right talent to surround him, but the right people as well... the people who care about the young players and are willing to take them under their wings and teach (push) them the right way.

Rose does not have the talent to build a team around, he can be a major contributor,but if Rose is your first option your team will suck!

How can anyone know this?

i generally ignore posts like these because they are so irrational is it even worth it?

[Rerisen]

How can anyone know this?

We can't. But I think right now, he's looking behind schedule as far as being the top 10 or 15 superstar we once thought.

Young superstars generally start busting out their second season. Even those as young as Derrick (see below). Rose’s expectations are not merely to match his rookie season, but he is struggling to even do that.

It’s to score about 19-20 PPG, have improved efficiency, either via shooting some threes or getting to the line way more (neither of which he’s doing). And also being a better playmaker for his teammates (more assists, also not happening). Overall finishing with a PER somewhere between 17 to 19 would put him on course.

Age and PER

LeBron James 19 (PER 18.3) 20 (PER 25.7)
Kevin Garnett 19 (PER 15.8) 20 (PER 18.2)
Kobe Bryant 18 (PER 14.4) 19 (PER 18.5)
Chris Paul 20 (PER 22.1) 21 (PER 22)
Tracy McGrady 18 (PER 17.4) 19 (PER 20.6)
Dwight Howard 19 (PER 17.2) 20 (PER 19.3)
Derrick Rose 20 (PER 16.) 21 (PER 14.4)

However we want to measure Rose’s progress, clearly offensively he is not Dwyane Wade like some dreamed about him being once Gordon was ‘out of the way’. If Derrick was going to rise up and be a dominant scorer, this is the perfect type of team for him to do it on, where we have little other playmaking talent and have the 4th worst offense in the league. So far he’s not doing it. His scoring numbers aren’t even up from last year.

[DJhitek]

I wouldn't trade Rose at this point, why? Because he is reluctant to be a more aggressive scorer in his second season?

[fisher]

Rose does not have the talent to build a team around, he can be a major contributor,but if Rose is your first option your team will suck!

How can anyone know this?

i generally ignore posts like these because they are so irrational is it even worth it?

True, but I'm genuinely curious. What reasoning is being used to come to those conclusions?

[fisher]

How can anyone know this?

We can't. But I think right now, he's looking behind schedule as far as being the top 10 or 15 superstar we once thought.

Behind schedule? As if every player progresses at the same rate or starts out with the same baseline stats? What would you have thought about Dwayne Wade, who had similar stats to Rose in his rookie season at age 22?

[Rerisen]

How can anyone know this?

We can't. But I think right now, he's looking behind schedule as far as being the top 10 or 15 superstar we once thought.

Behind schedule? As if every player progresses at the same rate or starts out with the same baseline stats? What would you have thought about Dwayne Wade, who had similar stats to Rose in his rookie season at age 22?

I would not have made too many judgments because it was his rookie season. And like most superstars, Wade ramped up his production considerably his 2nd season, heralding a star.

Not every player is the same, but there are trends and if you don't accept them as at least something to keep in mind, or to use as one way of measuring progression then you are just stumbling around in the dark.

A player's draft position is no guarantee of their success once in the league.

As the Bulls should have certainly learned after drafting Eddy, Tyson, and Tyrus Thomas. That doesn't mean you go and trade a Derrick Rose, I certainly wouldn't. But you do start taking into account their skills, strengths and weaknesses, in figuring out how to plan your team going forward. If Rose is not showing the underlying abilities to be a high volume scorer, then it might be wise to not just assume that is going to happen with regards to roster moves.

I said this last year as well when fans just blithely repeated that "we have our superstar". I know you have thrown Derrick's potential at me in the other thread in terms of him being a legitimate second option. Which is usually a player capable of 20 PPG on high efficiency. What do you base this happening on? More to the point the top post talked about him not being a legitimate *first* option. And I would agree, he won't be until he either gets a three point shot or can get to the line considerably more often than he has shown.

[alucryts]

How can anyone know this?

We can't. But I think right now, he's looking behind schedule as far as being the top 10 or 15 superstar we once thought.

Young superstars generally start busting out their second season. Even those as young as Derrick (see below). Rose’s expectations are not merely to match his rookie season, but he is struggling to even do that.

It’s to score about 19-20 PPG, have improved efficiency, either via shooting some threes or getting to the line way more (neither of which he’s doing). And also being a better playmaker for his teammates (more assists, also not happening). Overall finishing with a PER somewhere between 17 to 19 would put him on course.

Age and PER and games played

LeBron James 19 (PER 18.3) 20 (PER 25.7) full season
Kevin Garnett 19 (PER 15.8) 20 (PER 18.2) full season
Kobe Bryant 18 (PER 14.4) 19 (PER 18.5) full season
Chris Paul 20 (PER 22.1) 21 (PER 22) full season
Tracy McGrady 18 (PER 17.4) 19 (PER 20.6) full season
Dwight Howard 19 (PER 17.2) 20 (PER 19.3) full season
Derrick Rose 20 (PER 16.) 21 (PER 14.4) 18 games

However we want to measure Rose’s progress, clearly offensively he is not Dwyane Wade like some dreamed about him being once Gordon was ‘out of the way’. If Derrick was going to rise up and be a dominant scorer, this is the perfect type of team for him to do it on, where we have little other playmaking talent and have the 4th worst offense in the league. So far he’s not doing it. His scoring numbers aren’t even up from last year.

also, I made another thread about it, but derrick has been producing points in line with his usage % over the last 7 ish games. his 24.1% usage % = 20 ppg.

[fisher]

Behind schedule? As if every player progresses at the same rate or starts out with the same baseline stats? What would you have thought about Dwayne Wade, who had similar stats to Rose in his rookie season at age 22?

I would not have made too many judgments because it was his rookie season. And like most superstars, Wade ramped up his production considerably his 2nd season, heralding a star.

He also had Shaq on the roster. If we had Shaq in the condition he was in back then we'd be a lot better now and Rose would be playing better because he had somebody to lighten the load.

Not every player is the same, but there are trends and if you don't accept them as at least something to keep in mind, or to use as one way of measuring progression then you are just stumbling around in the dark.

You're stumbling around in the dark any way you look at it because you're basing second season PERs of others after a full season while using Rose's 18 games this season. Wait until after the season is around 70 games long or so and then you'll be comparing apples to apples.

However you still can't draw anything tangible from it. It's all a guess. Maybe Rose is a late bloomer than some others. Who knows?

A player's draft position is no guarantee of their success once in the league.

Obviously. But it's too early to tell at this point. Especially considering he had a serious ankle injury and missed the training camp.

[Rerisen]

Full Season

The season is 22% over. Rose would have to put up something like a 20 PER the rest of the way for it to end up in the area I suggested. And the area *pretty much every single person on this forum predicted or expected him to be at*.

You really think that is going to happen? If so, why do you believe he hasn't progressed all these first 18 games? Do you put that all on his ankle?

I think Rose started looking himself in the 2nd half of the Lakers game. It's been 7 games since then. His last 5 he is putting up just 15.8 and 5.4 assists. Lower numbers than last year. If his ankle is *still* bothering him at this point, we may have bigger issues, as it may be like Deng's nagging injuries that hobbled him all year. Personally don't think that's it.

[ozbull]

You know what would be interesting?
If the Bulls kept losing, got a few more injuries, and started looking at lottery picks..

Pick 5-10
Rose
a rejuvinated Deng
Noah
cap space

Looks pretty enticing to me as a Free Agent.