NBA Trade Thread #11

[Infinity2152]

Vucevic re-signed. So did Zach. They very easily could have been on other teams. Derozan signed as a free agent. Ball got a $20 mill AAV contract, split hairs all you want, he's a valued free agent. The argument was stars don't want to play here. Regardless of results, Zach, Demar and Vucevic could all easily have not been here and decided of their own free will to stay here. They all hit free agency and choose the Bulls. You might not like the stars we have, but those stars chose us too. Vets come here. Pat Beverly, Andre Drummond. Caruso came from California.

The greatest players of our generation, from Tim Duncan to Kobe Bryant even Lebron James have been involved in "To the Bulls" discussions. Those moves never stopped because the player didn't want to come to Chicago. They would have been shut down from the jump. They just got more of what they wanted elsewhere, usually at home.

Of course Vuc and Zach resigned, Chicago offered them more money than any other team, he'll, Zach tried to leave to Sacramento when he signed that offer sheet.

DeRozan 'signed' in Chicago because they offered by far the most money, by all accounts he was going to sign in Los Angeles if the Bulls didn't throw money bags at him.

Not sure what your point is for Lonzo and his contract he 'signed', buy I'm not splitting hairs, Lonzo is not and has never been a star.

Tim Duncan was never in conversations to join the Bulls, it was Orlando or San Antonio for him, the Bulls just had the money to try and sign him. The Bulls couldn't even get Eddie Jones to come to Chicago, he chose Miami. Kobe and LeBron just used the Bulls as pawns to get what they wanted, LeBron was never coming to Chicago. What's the point in naming player who 'may' have come to Chicago? They didn't. Which is exactly my point.

Teams resigning with the team that can give them the most money isn't the same as a team clearing capspace and signing a star or trading for a star that wants to come to that city.

I'm feeling generous so I'll give you DeMar DeRozan, but the list is super bleak after that.

Gotta mostly agree here. We had money and were gunning for T-Mac, Duncan, Jones , etc. We ended up with Ron Mercer. Hell, even Glen Rice backed out of an agreement that summer!
We wanted LeBron/Wade, or LeBron/Bosh, or Wade/Bosh, we got Carlos Boozer.
We went all in for Melo, got snubbed.
Prime Dwight Howard wanted out of Orlando, but did not want to come here despite us having a good team.

The best FA signing was Gasol. He gave us 2 very good seasons for half the price that we had previously paid Boozer. A washed up Wade came because we gave him a "Thank you for your services" contract... For services that he provided for a rival team

Lonzo probably would have been a very good one, but due to injuries we'll never know for sure.

Combine all that with the fact that nowerdays, prime superstars like 2010 almost never even hit free agency anymore. 2019 was the last time there were really notable star free agents that were jumping ships. Getting prime , superstar free agents just isn't a realistic plan these days. Most just re-sign then later get traded.

Wouldn't surprise me though if AD were to "come home" in a very Wade style signing.

As for Zion, it's a lateral move at best if we're trading Coby and Buzelis for him. Won't be any better than what the pelicans have been the last 6 years.

Let's go back to the original point. Do you think those players didn't come here because they don't want to play in Chicago? Because a player chooses New York or Miami or California they don't want to play here? Or they just prefer the prime NBA locations, no state tax, going to the state they grew up in? Not like we tried to get a superstar and they ended up in Detroit or Charlotte.

We've acquired multiple "stars", people can criticize Mercer, Boozer, Derozan, etc but they were pretty clearly stars. We've missed on the top superstars in the game who could probably go damn near anywhere. Like you said, superstars rarely hit FA and they always want to team up. Some locations will always have advantages, doesn't mean guys don't want to come here. Like I said, when they do come here, they usually don't want to leave.

Bulls are one of the top markets in the NBA. Y'all can stop bad mouthing Chicago, a lot of us are still here too. Most of us could have moved away.

[sco]

Of course Vuc and Zach resigned, Chicago offered them more money than any other team, he'll, Zach tried to leave to Sacramento when he signed that offer sheet.

DeRozan 'signed' in Chicago because they offered by far the most money, by all accounts he was going to sign in Los Angeles if the Bulls didn't throw money bags at him.

Not sure what your point is for Lonzo and his contract he 'signed', buy I'm not splitting hairs, Lonzo is not and has never been a star.

Tim Duncan was never in conversations to join the Bulls, it was Orlando or San Antonio for him, the Bulls just had the money to try and sign him. The Bulls couldn't even get Eddie Jones to come to Chicago, he chose Miami. Kobe and LeBron just used the Bulls as pawns to get what they wanted, LeBron was never coming to Chicago. What's the point in naming player who 'may' have come to Chicago? They didn't. Which is exactly my point.

Teams resigning with the team that can give them the most money isn't the same as a team clearing capspace and signing a star or trading for a star that wants to come to that city.

I'm feeling generous so I'll give you DeMar DeRozan, but the list is super bleak after that.

Gotta mostly agree here. We had money and were gunning for T-Mac, Duncan, Jones , etc. We ended up with Ron Mercer. Hell, even Glen Rice backed out of an agreement that summer!
We wanted LeBron/Wade, or LeBron/Bosh, or Wade/Bosh, we got Carlos Boozer.
We went all in for Melo, got snubbed.
Prime Dwight Howard wanted out of Orlando, but did not want to come here despite us having a good team.

The best FA signing was Gasol. He gave us 2 very good seasons for half the price that we had previously paid Boozer. A washed up Wade came because we gave him a "Thank you for your services" contract... For services that he provided for a rival team

Lonzo probably would have been a very good one, but due to injuries we'll never know for sure.

Combine all that with the fact that nowerdays, prime superstars like 2010 almost never even hit free agency anymore. 2019 was the last time there were really notable star free agents that were jumping ships. Getting prime , superstar free agents just isn't a realistic plan these days. Most just re-sign then later get traded.

Wouldn't surprise me though if AD were to "come home" in a very Wade style signing.

As for Zion, it's a lateral move at best if we're trading Coby and Buzelis for him. Won't be any better than what the pelicans have been the last 6 years.

Let's go back to the original point. Do you think those players didn't come here because they don't want to play in Chicago? Because a player chooses New York or Miami or California they don't want to play here? Or they just prefer the prime NBA locations, no state tax, going to the state they grew up in? Not like we tried to get a superstar and they ended up in Detroit or Charlotte.

We've acquired multiple "stars", people can criticize Mercer, Boozer, Derozan, etc but they were pretty clearly stars. We've missed on the top superstars in the game who could probably go damn near anywhere. Like you said, superstars rarely hit FA and they always want to team up. Some locations will always have advantages, doesn't mean guys don't want to come here. Like I said, when they do come here, they usually don't want to leave.

Bulls are one of the top markets in the NBA. Y'all can stop bad mouthing Chicago, a lot of us are still here too. Most of us could have moved away.

I don't hate the Zion concept, but the price might be too much. I have no problem with our 1st, the POR 1st (which looks like it will pay out), expirings, the question is whether we'd include our '27 1st.

[sco]

I will say that I am more comfortable with us only trying to shed Vuc and Carter in the offseason.

I have been trying to make the point that this team needs a #1 option to make the leap into contention. I haven't changed my mind on that, but before I went "all in" on somebody, I am willing to give Giddey, White and Buzelis next season to see if any of those 3 can make another step toward that role. I feel like all of them have benefitted by the removal of our prior #1 option and I worry that adding another #1 option guy will cause them to take a step back.

I really want to see a line-up of Ball, White, Giddey, Matas, Collins to see what it can do. Add in Jones, Huerter, Ayo, Smith and our #1 and we might have something pretty good.

[Infinity2152]

I will say that I am more comfortable with us only trying to shed Vuc and Carter in the offseason.

I have been trying to make the point that this team needs a #1 option to make the leap into contention. I haven't changed my mind on that, but before I went "all in" on somebody, I am willing to give Giddey, White and Buzelis next season to see if any of those 3 can make another step toward that role. I feel like all of them have benefitted by the removal of our prior #1 option and I worry that adding another #1 option guy will cause them to take a step back.

I really want to see a line-up of Ball, White, Giddey, Matas, Collins to see what it can do. Add in Jones, Huerter, Ayo, Smith and our #1 and we might have something pretty good.

Understandable. My thought is Zion is 23 and as much as I like Giddey, Matas, and White, Zion is clearly better. I'd view it as them growing together as a young core, rather than him limiting them. Wouldn't want any vet over 27-28 right now, but Zion fits kind of perfectly. We probably lose one in the trade, but we have to pay Coby and Giddey to keep them anyway. If it comes to Zion at $40 mill, or Coby at $25-30 mill or Giddey at $30 mill, I know which one I'm choosing.

I get what you're saying though. They'd certainly get less shot attempts with Zion here, but like I said one of the three probably has to go in the trade anyway. If it's Coby, Giddey and Matas won't miss much in terms of FGA's, Coby takes a lot of attempts already. With Ball and Giddey moving the ball, I think everybody could eat. I do think that current lineup you posted could be very good, and that's not even what we get back in a Vucevic trade. Or Patrick Williams, who could still turn it around, at least enough to be a dependable 3 and D guy you're not expecting to score a lot. But still no 10-15 talent on the team.

[Infinity2152]

Just had a thought. What if Thibs was the coach the last 2-3 years?

My prediction, we make the playoffs every year. He beats, berates, screams Patrick Williams into compliance. Every year one or two of Zach, Debo and Vuc are injured by the playoffs and we wash out first/second round. They're all averaging 36-38 mins/gm. Caruso plays 30 minutes a game half the season and ABSOLUTELY never gets traded and we give him the 4yrs/$81 mill. So we don't have Giddey. We don't have Matas because we were the 5th seed every year and we got a lower pick. Lonzo gets 25-30 minutes as soon as he gets back and he's down for the season.

And you think he's going to be losing games and playing young guys now, lmao! We get nothing back in Zach and Vuc trades because they're fully broken by now.

[WesPeace]

This ancient history what IFs are soo pointless.. what IF Lonzo would never get injured etc.. meaningless and pointless, it is what it is, lets move on!

[sco]

When I think of trades, I'm struggling to find guys who we could insert into our roster that are obvious fits. I'd like to give next season to see if Coby can stay at a #1 scoring option, Giddey can keep his aggressiveness on both ends, and Matas can evolve into a reliable 3rd option scorer, see how competent C play out of Collins/Smith work without Vuc, and if Ball/Jones can give us the defensive power we need. If we added another high-level scorer, I think it may bring us back to the Zach days.

It may not work out well next season, but I feel like this crew earned its shot. It is also an ideal scenario for bringing this year's draft pick to have to earn minutes.

[Infinity2152]

When I think of trades, I'm struggling to find guys who we could insert into our roster that are obvious fits. I'd like to give next season to see if Coby can stay at a #1 scoring option, Giddey can keep his aggressiveness on both ends, and Matas can evolve into a reliable 3rd option scorer, see how competent C play out of Collins/Smith work without Vuc, and if Ball/Jones can give us the defensive power we need. If we added another high-level scorer, I think it may bring us back to the Zach days.

It may not work out well next season, but I feel like this crew earned its shot. It is also an ideal scenario for bringing this year's draft pick to have to earn minutes.

I really like our guys too. But let me ask you this. In your honest opinion, is Zion a more valuable player than Coby and Matas or not? Is he clearly on the next tier? We're not talking about moving the whole team to get Zion, we're talking about Vuc and one of the young guys plus picks. I believe Coby is an above average Starting SG. I believe Giddey could be All Star level. Zion's one of the forces of the NBA. He's high tier All-Star.

He's actually younger than Coby. He's the guy you trade Coby and our pick if it's number 3 to move up to #1 and grab. Doubtful Cooper Flagg will be better than Zion. As far as fits the roster, who are we talking about? Giddey and Matas? Maybe Ball? The rest of the team is up for grabs. I'm one of the people who say offer Coby the extension, if he doesn't accept, still don't trade him and re-sign in FA. But the chances to get a 23 yr old at Zion's level almost never happen. Much easier to replace Coby, as much as I like him, especially since Coby has to be re-signed and probably won't be a value contract after this season.

I'm with you for the most part about running this team out there, but Zion's an exception to the rule, imo. Extremely rare opportunity.

[Infinity2152]

This ancient history what IFs are soo pointless.. what IF Lonzo would never get injured etc.. meaningless and pointless, it is what it is, lets move on!

This comment was soooo pointless. Condescending and useless, provided no information. Could have just skipped past the post, but had to insert some negativity. The way to move on is post something related to the Bull, then people will respond. Just because you don't want to talk about something doesn't mean no one else does. This is not your personal forum. Being rude and insulting while preaching forum etiquette is just hypocritical.

[sco]

When I think of trades, I'm struggling to find guys who we could insert into our roster that are obvious fits. I'd like to give next season to see if Coby can stay at a #1 scoring option, Giddey can keep his aggressiveness on both ends, and Matas can evolve into a reliable 3rd option scorer, see how competent C play out of Collins/Smith work without Vuc, and if Ball/Jones can give us the defensive power we need. If we added another high-level scorer, I think it may bring us back to the Zach days.

It may not work out well next season, but I feel like this crew earned its shot. It is also an ideal scenario for bringing this year's draft pick to have to earn minutes.

I really like our guys too. But let me ask you this. In your honest opinion, is Zion a more valuable player than Coby and Matas or not? Is he clearly on the next tier? We're not talking about moving the whole team to get Zion, we're talking about Vuc and one of the young guys plus picks. I believe Coby is an above average Starting SG. I believe Giddey could be All Star level. Zion's one of the forces of the NBA. He's high tier All-Star.

He's actually younger than Coby. He's the guy you trade Coby and our pick if it's number 3 to move up to #1 and grab. Doubtful Cooper Flagg will be better than Zion. As far as fits the roster, who are we talking about? Giddey and Matas? Maybe Ball? The rest of the team is up for grabs. I'm one of the people who say offer Coby the extension, if he doesn't accept, still don't trade him and re-sign in FA. But the chances to get a 23 yr old at Zion's level almost never happen. Much easier to replace Coby, as much as I like him, especially since Coby has to be re-signed and probably won't be a value contract after this season.

I think the Zion risk would be "worth it" if we don't need to give up more than our pick and por 1st plus anyone not named Coby, Matas or Josh. That said, I don't think "that deal" gets it done. Also, I worry that Zion comes with risks beyond the obvious injury one. His game in some ways reminds me of Demar and the negative impact that it has on other guys. He is a better defender and he seems less reluctant to pass the ball. But like I said, probably worth it for the right price.

The guy who would probably be a better complementary piece is Turner, but I don't see how we could nab him in FA.

[Infinity2152]

When I think of trades, I'm struggling to find guys who we could insert into our roster that are obvious fits. I'd like to give next season to see if Coby can stay at a #1 scoring option, Giddey can keep his aggressiveness on both ends, and Matas can evolve into a reliable 3rd option scorer, see how competent C play out of Collins/Smith work without Vuc, and if Ball/Jones can give us the defensive power we need. If we added another high-level scorer, I think it may bring us back to the Zach days.

It may not work out well next season, but I feel like this crew earned its shot. It is also an ideal scenario for bringing this year's draft pick to have to earn minutes.

I really like our guys too. But let me ask you this. In your honest opinion, is Zion a more valuable player than Coby and Matas or not? Is he clearly on the next tier? We're not talking about moving the whole team to get Zion, we're talking about Vuc and one of the young guys plus picks. I believe Coby is an above average Starting SG. I believe Giddey could be All Star level. Zion's one of the forces of the NBA. He's high tier All-Star.

He's actually younger than Coby. He's the guy you trade Coby and our pick if it's number 3 to move up to #1 and grab. Doubtful Cooper Flagg will be better than Zion. As far as fits the roster, who are we talking about? Giddey and Matas? Maybe Ball? The rest of the team is up for grabs. I'm one of the people who say offer Coby the extension, if he doesn't accept, still don't trade him and re-sign in FA. But the chances to get a 23 yr old at Zion's level almost never happen. Much easier to replace Coby, as much as I like him, especially since Coby has to be re-signed and probably won't be a value contract after this season.

I think the Zion risk would be "worth it" if we don't need to give up more than our pick and por 1st plus anyone not named Coby, Matas or Josh. That said, I don't think "that deal" gets it done. Also, I worry that Zion comes with risks beyond the obvious injury one. His game in some ways reminds me of Demar and the negative impact that it has on other guys. He is a better defender and he seems less reluctant to pass the ball. But like I said, probably worth it for the right price.

The guy who would probably be a better complementary piece is Turner, but I don't see how we could nab him in FA.

Yeah, I don't think Zion's this perfect guy that's just going to lead a team to a championship. I also don't like letting our good draftees go, if we drafted them and they're good, we should keep them. We haven't had a truly high-end player in a very long time. Some very good-great players, but the last player I feel was elite while playing here is Derrick Rose. You're right, his limitations would come into focus far more once he gets here and we see it. But here's the scariest thing. He's not even close to his prime. Personally, I rate Giddey over Coby in terms of value, as in difficult to replace. But if Zion's doing this at 20-21, whats he going to be doing at 25? I don't think Coby reaches Zach's peak, Zion's already past that.

Turner could be doable. He's actually the first free agent I suggested months ago. Sign and trade for Vuc (or Pat plus filler) plus assets. Lot depends on the Pacers. Collins and Smith look good enough I'd forgo that this year and stand pat, like you said. Again, I agree with you there. Zion's talent and age just make him a huge exception to the rule. Next summer, we'll have so much money and Collins expires, then we can get our center.

[jnrjr79]

I really like our guys too. But let me ask you this. In your honest opinion, is Zion a more valuable player than Coby and Matas or not? Is he clearly on the next tier? We're not talking about moving the whole team to get Zion, we're talking about Vuc and one of the young guys plus picks. I believe Coby is an above average Starting SG. I believe Giddey could be All Star level. Zion's one of the forces of the NBA. He's high tier All-Star.

He's actually younger than Coby. He's the guy you trade Coby and our pick if it's number 3 to move up to #1 and grab. Doubtful Cooper Flagg will be better than Zion. As far as fits the roster, who are we talking about? Giddey and Matas? Maybe Ball? The rest of the team is up for grabs. I'm one of the people who say offer Coby the extension, if he doesn't accept, still don't trade him and re-sign in FA. But the chances to get a 23 yr old at Zion's level almost never happen. Much easier to replace Coby, as much as I like him, especially since Coby has to be re-signed and probably won't be a value contract after this season.

I think the Zion risk would be "worth it" if we don't need to give up more than our pick and por 1st plus anyone not named Coby, Matas or Josh. That said, I don't think "that deal" gets it done. Also, I worry that Zion comes with risks beyond the obvious injury one. His game in some ways reminds me of Demar and the negative impact that it has on other guys. He is a better defender and he seems less reluctant to pass the ball. But like I said, probably worth it for the right price.

The guy who would probably be a better complementary piece is Turner, but I don't see how we could nab him in FA.

Yeah, I don't think Zion's this perfect guy that's just going to lead a team to a championship. I also don't like letting our good draftees go, if we drafted them and they're good, we should keep them. We haven't had a truly high-end player in a very long time. Some very good-great players, but the last player I feel was elite while playing here is Derrick Rose. You're right, his limitations would come into focus far more once he gets here and we see it. But here's the scariest thing. He's not even close to his prime. Personally, I rate Giddey over Coby in terms of value, as in difficult to replace. But if Zion's doing this at 20-21, whats he going to be doing at 25? I don't think Coby reaches Zach's peak, Zion's already past that.

I'm with you here. I'd understand expiring + picks if you're going to gamble on Zion's upside, but I wouldn't trade any potential young future core players on the roster for him.

I have no idea what Zion's value is. He's great when he's healthy, he's rarely healthy, and there may be some real character issues with him. But is contract is basically voidable annually if he misses a lot of time, so you can get out of it easily enough.

[Infinity2152]

And that's the conundrum. His health. However, with good health, Zion isn't even available so the whole conversation would be moot. Or he would cost a hell of a lot more than what he will cost now. His injury history is baked into the price. Again, he played 70 games last year, he's lost a ton of weight and he's older and more mature.

His body looks amazing now. There's certainly some risk. But how much is a healthy Zion worth? Far, far more than what we're proposing. I doubt they would even accept that offer now. But his value vs Coby, Vuc and some picks is pretty easy to judge when you take out the injury history. So either you completely eliminate him as a player because of it, or you adjust down from healthy Zion's value to current Zion's value. Ya'll know good and damn well no package not including Coby or Matas is going to be accepted, lmao! Who else are we adding for an even somewhat reasonable proposal? Ayo? Pat?

Pro: 24 years old
Elite athlete, player absolutely dominating, top 5 offensive threat
Locked up for years on a very reasonable contract. Said contract has severe weight and injury clauses, unlike most contracts.

Cons: Had major injury seasons 2 and 4 years ago. Played 70 and 61 games 1 and 3 years ago.

[jnrjr79]

And that's the conundrum. His health. However, with good health, Zion isn't even available so the whole conversation would be moot. Or he would cost a hell of a lot more than what he will cost now. His injury history is baked into the price. Again, he played 70 games last year, he's lost a ton of weight and he's older and more mature.

His body looks amazing now. There's certainly some risk. But how much is a healthy Zion worth? Far, far more than what we're proposing. I doubt they would even accept that offer. But his value vs Coby, Vuc and some picks is pretty easy to judge when you take out the injury history. So either you completely eliminate him as a player because of it, or you adjust down from healthy Zion's value to current Zion's value.

Pro: 24 years old
Elite athlete, player absolutely dominating, top 5 offensive threat
Locked up for years on a very reasonable contract. Said contract has severe weight and injury clauses, unlike most contracts.

Cons: Had major injury seasons 2 and 4 years ago. Played 61 and 70 games 1 and 3 years ago.

If they wouldn't take expirings and picks for Zion, I'm losing zero sleep over not acquiring him. I'm not a huge believer in Zion, but I understand there's an upside play where it could work out, and the Bulls don't really have a lot of other paths to that kind of upside. But I still think it's more likely than not that it would not work out due to injuries.

Zion has played 214 games in 5 seasons. He's played 30 this year. I'm not throwing any parties over the fact he managed to play 70 games precisely once in his career, when he's played 24, 61, 0, 29, 70, and 30 (so far) in his six NBA seasons. I also don't particularly think him losing weight somehow means he's no longer injury prone - he obviously is. He's missed most of this season!

[Infinity2152]

And that's the conundrum. His health. However, with good health, Zion isn't even available so the whole conversation would be moot. Or he would cost a hell of a lot more than what he will cost now. His injury history is baked into the price. Again, he played 70 games last year, he's lost a ton of weight and he's older and more mature.

His body looks amazing now. There's certainly some risk. But how much is a healthy Zion worth? Far, far more than what we're proposing. I doubt they would even accept that offer. But his value vs Coby, Vuc and some picks is pretty easy to judge when you take out the injury history. So either you completely eliminate him as a player because of it, or you adjust down from healthy Zion's value to current Zion's value.

Pro: 24 years old
Elite athlete, player absolutely dominating, top 5 offensive threat
Locked up for years on a very reasonable contract. Said contract has severe weight and injury clauses, unlike most contracts.

Cons: Had major injury seasons 2 and 4 years ago. Played 61 and 70 games 1 and 3 years ago.

If they wouldn't take expirings and picks for Zion, I'm losing zero sleep over not acquiring him. I'm not a huge believer in Zion, but I understand there's an upside play where it could work out, and the Bulls don't really have a lot of other paths to that kind of upside. But I still think it's more likely than not that it would not work out due to injuries.

Zion has played 214 games in 5 seasons. He's played 30 this year. I'm not throwing any parties over the fact he managed to play 70 games precisely once in his career, when he's played 24, 61, 0, 29, 70, and 30 (so far) in his six NBA seasons. I also don't particularly think him losing weight somehow means he's no longer injury prone - he obviously is. He's missed most of this season!

Like I said, you can just say you don't want Zion. The guy is 24 and put up 29 pts, 8 assists, 5 rebounds on 75% shooting in 30 minutes the other night. When you say "Well, if they won't take expirings and picks, I don't want him" you might as well say you don't want him. This Zion bashing is getting insane, do you possibly think if/when Zion is traded, it'll be for expirings and picks??

All the rest of the talk is noise. We all know his injury history. Again, it's WHY he's available! The injury history creates the opportunity.

But we can keep playing it safe, stack up these near Allstar players. Hope for our prince to come in the draft some year. Or convince the Spurs to send us Wemby. Or maybe summer 2026, when we have all that cap, a star decides to come here who wouldn't have rather joined the team with Zion on it. What's your more certain route to getting us a legit number 1? Let's discuss those odds.

[jnrjr79]

And that's the conundrum. His health. However, with good health, Zion isn't even available so the whole conversation would be moot. Or he would cost a hell of a lot more than what he will cost now. His injury history is baked into the price. Again, he played 70 games last year, he's lost a ton of weight and he's older and more mature.

His body looks amazing now. There's certainly some risk. But how much is a healthy Zion worth? Far, far more than what we're proposing. I doubt they would even accept that offer. But his value vs Coby, Vuc and some picks is pretty easy to judge when you take out the injury history. So either you completely eliminate him as a player because of it, or you adjust down from healthy Zion's value to current Zion's value.

Pro: 24 years old
Elite athlete, player absolutely dominating, top 5 offensive threat
Locked up for years on a very reasonable contract. Said contract has severe weight and injury clauses, unlike most contracts.

Cons: Had major injury seasons 2 and 4 years ago. Played 61 and 70 games 1 and 3 years ago.

If they wouldn't take expirings and picks for Zion, I'm losing zero sleep over not acquiring him. I'm not a huge believer in Zion, but I understand there's an upside play where it could work out, and the Bulls don't really have a lot of other paths to that kind of upside. But I still think it's more likely than not that it would not work out due to injuries.

Zion has played 214 games in 5 seasons. He's played 30 this year. I'm not throwing any parties over the fact he managed to play 70 games precisely once in his career, when he's played 24, 61, 0, 29, 70, and 30 (so far) in his six NBA seasons. I also don't particularly think him losing weight somehow means he's no longer injury prone - he obviously is. He's missed most of this season!

Like I said, you can just say you don't want Zion. The guy is 24 and put up 29 pts, 8 assists, 5 rebounds on 75% shooting in 30 minutes the other night. When you say "Well, if they won't take expirings and picks, I don't want him" you might as well say you don't want him. This Zion bashing is getting insane, do you possibly think if/when Zion is traded, it'll be for expirings and picks??

What's "insane" is saying that there is Zion "bashing" going on. I mean, you can't get any sillier than citing to a single awesome game in support of him.

Zion has played under half of his games in the NBA. It wouldn't shock me a bit if he's ultimately traded for expirings and picks, no.

All the rest of the talk is noise. We all know his injury history. Again, it's WHY he's available! The injury history creates the opportunity.

I don't know whether he is in fact available, but yes, the injury history, coupled with his apparent character issues, would be why he would be available.

But we can keep playing it safe, stack up these near Allstar players. Hope for our prince to come in the draft some year. Or convince the Spurs to send us Wemby. Or maybe summer 2026, when we have all that cap, a star decides to come here who wouldn't have rather joined the team with Zion on it. What's your more certain route to getting us a legit number 1? Let's discuss those odds.

This implied Zion is a "legit number 1." Maybe he will be. I don't know. He can't be one unless he can stay healthy, and I don't know whether he can stay healthy.

I don't really have a path to a "legit number 1" for the Bulls. It should be the draft, but AK has seen to it to really reduce the chances of that succeeding. So, yeah, you might be stuck with something like gambling on Zion.

Again, I'm open to taking a chance on Zion, but I wouldn't do anything silly as has been suggested in this thread like trade Matas for him. I wouldn't be inclined to trade Coby, either, but if the Bulls are convinced they won't be able to keep him when he hits free agency, then I could understand it. But as I've noted in other threads, because Coby will be a UFA in 1 year, teams may not value him all that much in trade. If I'm New Orleans, I'd rather just have expirings and draft capital and rebuild properly through the draft. Having Coby prop them up for a single season for no particular reason would be dumb.

[patryk7754]

If White finishes the season strong, I think we should 100% take advantage of his play and package him for a true all-star level player. Now that we know giddey will be the PG of the future, I think there are two main targets we should pursue. Zion and Sabonis. Zion has been discussed to exhaustion. My main point about him is that he's an elite talent with lower than usual trade value because of his availability issues (which I personally think will mostly magically go away when he finally leaves N.O). As for Sabonis, I think his offensive versatility would excel in Donovan's system. I think he might be getable because, if I recall correctly, he had some disgruntled comments after Fox got traded. Something to the extent of his career being wasted. I think one of the better things about trading for either of these guys is that their contracts are compared to other stars, meaning we could still sign a high level player. Best case scenario would be off-loading Patrick Williams in the deal as well. A likely trade would look something like this:

White, Williams, Ayo, and picks (likely the POR pick, future first and maybe this year's first depending on where it is) to Pels or Kings
Vuc to a third team (most likely a contender) and the third team sends minimal assets to Pels or Kings
Bulls receive either Zion or Sabonis

I think anyone is tradable other than Matas and Giddey, so if someone like Lonzo, Huerter or Smith is also included, that would not be surprising.

If we manage to complete a trade for one of those guys, I'd like to sign Naz Reid (I'd like to sign Reid in almost any situation). He can play at a high level next to either of those guys. And if we can afford it, I would like to sign Walker-Alexander to be our SG. Resign Tre Jones and Collins.

Giddey/Lonzo/Jones
NAW/Huerter/Lonzo
Matas/Huerter/Philips
Zion/Smith/Matas
Reid/Collins

or

Giddey/Lonzo/Jones
NAW/Huerter/Lonzo
Matas/Huerter/Philips
Reid/Smith/Matas
Sabonis/Collins

[sco]

If White finishes the season strong, I think we should 100% take advantage of his play and package him for a true all-star level player. Now that we know giddey will be the PG of the future, I think there are two main targets we should pursue. Zion and Sabonis. Zion has been discussed to exhaustion. My main point about him is that he's an elite talent with lower than usual trade value because of his availability issues (which I personally think will mostly magically go away when he finally leaves N.O). As for Sabonis, I think his offensive versatility would excel in Donovan's system. I think he might be getable because, if I recall correctly, he had some disgruntled comments after Fox got traded. Something to the extent of his career being wasted. I think one of the better things about trading for either of these guys is that their contracts are compared to other stars, meaning we could still sign a high level player. Best case scenario would be off-loading Patrick Williams in the deal as well. A likely trade would look something like this:

White, Williams, Ayo, and picks (likely the POR pick, future first and maybe this year's first depending on where it is) to Pels or Kings
Vuc to a third team (most likely a contender) and the third team sends minimal assets to Pels or Kings
Bulls receive either Zion or Sabonis

I think anyone is tradable other than Matas and Giddey, so if someone like Lonzo, Huerter or Smith is also included, that would not be surprising.

If we manage to complete a trade for one of those guys, I'd like to sign Naz Reid (I'd like to sign Reid in almost any situation). He can play at a high level next to either of those guys. And if we can afford it, I would like to sign Walker-Alexander to be our SG. Resign Tre Jones and Collins.

Giddey/Lonzo/Jones
NAW/Huerter/Lonzo
Matas/Huerter/Philips
Zion/Smith/Matas
Reid/Collins

or

Giddey/Lonzo/Jones
NAW/Huerter/Lonzo
Matas/Huerter/Philips
Reid/Smith/Matas
Sabonis/Collins

I gave my thoughts on Zion (willing to do if we don't need to include our core 3 guys). I'd consider Reid too, but I think Minny won't do us any favors with a S&T if they want to keep him (which I think they do, but you never know, maybe they think offers will come in above where they'd match). On Sabonis, his flaws (no rim protection and bad defender, and not really a 3pt shooter - despite his 42% 3pt% he only shoots 2 a game) remind me too much of Vuc to think that his experiment would work. When you have a passer like Giddey, you really want a C who he can find for dunks, and with a defender like Coby, you really want a rim protector.

[Jcool0]

If they wouldn't take expirings and picks for Zion, I'm losing zero sleep over not acquiring him. I'm not a huge believer in Zion, but I understand there's an upside play where it could work out, and the Bulls don't really have a lot of other paths to that kind of upside. But I still think it's more likely than not that it would not work out due to injuries.

Zion has played 214 games in 5 seasons. He's played 30 this year. I'm not throwing any parties over the fact he managed to play 70 games precisely once in his career, when he's played 24, 61, 0, 29, 70, and 30 (so far) in his six NBA seasons. I also don't particularly think him losing weight somehow means he's no longer injury prone - he obviously is. He's missed most of this season!

Like I said, you can just say you don't want Zion. The guy is 24 and put up 29 pts, 8 assists, 5 rebounds on 75% shooting in 30 minutes the other night. When you say "Well, if they won't take expirings and picks, I don't want him" you might as well say you don't want him. This Zion bashing is getting insane, do you possibly think if/when Zion is traded, it'll be for expirings and picks??

What's "insane" is saying that there is Zion "bashing" going on. I mean, you can't get any sillier than citing to a single awesome game in support of him.

Zion has played under half of his games in the NBA. It wouldn't shock me a bit if he's ultimately traded for expirings and picks, no.

All the rest of the talk is noise. We all know his injury history. Again, it's WHY he's available! The injury history creates the opportunity.

I don't know whether he is in fact available, but yes, the injury history, coupled with his apparent character issues, would be why he would be available.

But we can keep playing it safe, stack up these near Allstar players. Hope for our prince to come in the draft some year. Or convince the Spurs to send us Wemby. Or maybe summer 2026, when we have all that cap, a star decides to come here who wouldn't have rather joined the team with Zion on it. What's your more certain route to getting us a legit number 1? Let's discuss those odds.

This implied Zion is a "legit number 1." Maybe he will be. I don't know. He can't be one unless he can stay healthy, and I don't know whether he can stay healthy.

I don't really have a path to a "legit number 1" for the Bulls. It should be the draft, but AK has seen to it to really reduce the chances of that succeeding. So, yeah, you might be stuck with something like gambling on Zion.

Again, I'm open to taking a chance on Zion, but I wouldn't do anything silly as has been suggested in this thread like trade Matas for him. I wouldn't be inclined to trade Coby, either, but if the Bulls are convinced they won't be able to keep him when he hits free agency, then I could understand it. But as I've noted in other threads, because Coby will be a UFA in 1 year, teams may not value him all that much in trade. If I'm New Orleans, I'd rather just have expirings and draft capital and rebuild properly through the draft. Having Coby prop them up for a single season for no particular reason would be dumb.

As the saying goes... Your best ability is availability. Its not your only a #1 if you dont get hurt. Every single game he has ever played in since playing for Duke he has been a #1. Until his injuries zap whatever magic he has. He is a #1 guy. Now is a #1 as valuable playing 40 games instead of 70? No. And whatever teams trades for him is hoping his injury issues are more a weight thing then style thing (If he is ever traded). But what is the most important thing in the NBA... Getting that #1 player. Because without him you have no chance.

[sco]

Like I said, you can just say you don't want Zion. The guy is 24 and put up 29 pts, 8 assists, 5 rebounds on 75% shooting in 30 minutes the other night. When you say "Well, if they won't take expirings and picks, I don't want him" you might as well say you don't want him. This Zion bashing is getting insane, do you possibly think if/when Zion is traded, it'll be for expirings and picks??

What's "insane" is saying that there is Zion "bashing" going on. I mean, you can't get any sillier than citing to a single awesome game in support of him.

Zion has played under half of his games in the NBA. It wouldn't shock me a bit if he's ultimately traded for expirings and picks, no.

All the rest of the talk is noise. We all know his injury history. Again, it's WHY he's available! The injury history creates the opportunity.

I don't know whether he is in fact available, but yes, the injury history, coupled with his apparent character issues, would be why he would be available.

But we can keep playing it safe, stack up these near Allstar players. Hope for our prince to come in the draft some year. Or convince the Spurs to send us Wemby. Or maybe summer 2026, when we have all that cap, a star decides to come here who wouldn't have rather joined the team with Zion on it. What's your more certain route to getting us a legit number 1? Let's discuss those odds.

This implied Zion is a "legit number 1." Maybe he will be. I don't know. He can't be one unless he can stay healthy, and I don't know whether he can stay healthy.

I don't really have a path to a "legit number 1" for the Bulls. It should be the draft, but AK has seen to it to really reduce the chances of that succeeding. So, yeah, you might be stuck with something like gambling on Zion.

Again, I'm open to taking a chance on Zion, but I wouldn't do anything silly as has been suggested in this thread like trade Matas for him. I wouldn't be inclined to trade Coby, either, but if the Bulls are convinced they won't be able to keep him when he hits free agency, then I could understand it. But as I've noted in other threads, because Coby will be a UFA in 1 year, teams may not value him all that much in trade. If I'm New Orleans, I'd rather just have expirings and draft capital and rebuild properly through the draft. Having Coby prop them up for a single season for no particular reason would be dumb.

As the saying goes... Your best ability is availability. Its not your only a #1 if you dont get hurt. Every single game he has ever played in since playing for Duke he has been a #1. Until his injuries zap whatever magic he has. He is a #1 guy. Now is a #1 as valuable playing 40 games instead of 70? No. And whatever teams trades for him is hoping his injury issues are more a weight thing then style thing (If he is ever traded). But what is the most important thing in the NBA... Getting that #1 player. Because without him you have no chance.

Again, I'm pro trying to get Zion. His game is hard to pair with a complementary C. You need a guy who is both a good 3pt shooter on offense and a good shot blocker on defense. Honestly, Smith may be about as close to that we'd be able to afford.