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Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott

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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#221 » by DJhitek » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:28 am

tong po wrote:
DuckIII wrote:I will. Because its not a basketball reason. Its a trend reason. A perception reason. You evaluate individuals. Its little less arbitrary and idiotic as saying that you shouldn't "draft players from Duke."

Well…nobody's gonna agree with me, but I'm just gonna say it: every white American wing prospect that was hyped up enough to make the first round in the last decade has been incredibly overrated due to being white. They get the usual white player platitudes like "smart," "hardworking," "skilled," "gritty," etc., when if they were the same player but black, they probably would not, at least not to the same extent. This isn't only a white guy thing, sometimes random black guys get these pointless platitudes as well (hello, Marcus Smart), but it has definitely pumped up the stock for a lot of white perimeter players who, with hindsight, should have easily been seen as the middling-to-terrible prospects they really were.

I mean, why is McDermott somehow now a top-10 lock, while fellow slow ass 3/4 tweener Kyle Anderson is barely a first rounder? How is McDermott somehow just assumed to be able to transfer his skillset over to the pros but not Anderson?

I think there is a tendency for them to get overrated because GMs give them a bit more leeway in thinking they will "figure it out" once they reach the pros. I'm personally still bewildered as to how every white guy in the last ten years that was drafted in the lottery was, in fact, taken in the lottery. I know not all of them are bad players or anything, but how they were that hyped up as NBA prospects instead of being seen as the late first rounders/second rounders they should have been eludes me.

Of course, I realize it's also bewildering how these same GMs thought Parsons and Budinger were only second round prospects. I would assume they didn't really come off as "smart" players in college.


I'll answer the Kyle Anderson bit, because Doug is absolutely elite at shooting and that is a premiuim while Kyle is not. Fair or not, Kyle has exceptional vision and feel for the game but that part is always overlooked for score ring and shooting IMO.

I happen to like both players a lot but I think it has more to do with their individual skill sets although there might be some truth to what you are saying.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#222 » by BullsFTW » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:28 am

Shill4Tyrus24 wrote:McDermott at 8 is a bit of a reach, but I think he's a pretty solid prospect. He has a diverse skill set. The lack of explosiveness will keep him from being a star, but I think he can be a solid role player.


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeZR5YevSxw[/youtube]

If we get McDermott, I do hope Taj is not involved.

McDermott could be an attractive asset for the Knicks.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#223 » by Susan » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:30 am

Can anybody find me a player who averaged as few steals/blocks as this dude did in college and then went on to have a successful NBA career?

Those two stats are pretty good indicators whether somebody's game will translate over into the NBA.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#224 » by Indomitable » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:31 am

Ralphb07 wrote:I've heard the move up is for Gary Harris. The Bulls have a lot going on right now.

EDIT: The Bulls would want to add shooters around Rose and Melo if they landed him.

I prefer Harris and how are you.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#225 » by JDRochholz » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:32 am

I got to see this guy play quite frequently here in Omaha. Trust me when I say....Bird 2.0
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#226 » by League Circles » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:33 am

I'd be extremely disappointed in trading up for McDermott at 8. Hell I'd be pissed taking him at 16.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#227 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:37 am

bearadonisdna wrote:
tong po wrote:
DuckIII wrote:Just putting it out there: This board thinks any big white guy lacking a sick behind the back crossover is going to be a bust. It has been that way every draft for the 10+ years I've been here. Its boring.

Every single white American perimeter player drafted in the last ten years (i.e. the Posthinrichian Era):

Luke Jackson
Blake Stepp
Travis Diener
Adam Morrison
JJ Redick (eventually became a decent player)
Steve Novak
Adam Haluska
Jared Jordan
Joe Alexander
Chase Budinger (a decent rotation player for a while there)
Nick Calathes
Gordon Hayward (mediocre starter)
Luke Babbitt
Andy Rautins
Jimmer Fredette
Kyle Singler
Chandler Parsons (Hey! He's pretty damn good!)
Robbie Hummel
Nate Wolters

I absolutely hate McDermott as a prospect and it has nothing to do with him being white. However, if someone were to say that they simply don't want to draft a white American wing player that high…I ain't gonna argue. It is a risky proposition that seems to have little correlation with draft position.


U obviously forgot kevin love.


If u were to post a listing of black wing players that have been busts over the last 5 years, the list would exceed the post limits.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#228 » by Leslie Forman » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:40 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:If u were to post a listing of black wing players that have been busts over the last 5 years, the list would exceed the post limits.

The best black wing player drafted in the last decade is quite a bit better than Chandler Parsons or JJ Redick.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#229 » by Mattchoo » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:45 am

Ralph, isn't Stauskus the better shooter (than Harris) though?


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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#230 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:46 am

tong po wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:If u were to post a listing of black wing players that have been busts over the last 5 years, the list would exceed the post limits.

The best black wing player drafted in the last decade is quite a bit better than Chandler Parsons or JJ Redick.


I guess you'd have to do a study of players drafted at the same number slot and play a percentage game to determine that if you really cared. Saying there are better wings that are black doesn't say anything. There are 25 black dudes for every white guy. Obviously.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#231 » by Magilla_Gorilla » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:46 am

TheJordanRule wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
tong po wrote:However, if someone were to say that they simply don't want to draft a white American wing player that high…I ain't gonna argue.


I will. Because its not a basketball reason. Its a trend reason. A perception reason. You evaluate individuals. Its little less arbitrary and idiotic as saying that you shouldn't "draft players from Duke."


If Doug McDermott were a more defensively powerful and speedy white kid, people would be thrilled. This has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with McDermott's flaws on defense and athleticism. Like Tong Po says, it's more tiresome to read posts once a year about how a wonderful college scorer is going to do the same at the next level because of intangibles when he doesn't have anywhere near the tools to do so. Then the year comes, the dude busts, and people find the next equivalent to go gushing about. I'll buy into McDermott if the front office drafts him because of their good track record, but till they do I'm against the move.


Tong Po didn't post a list of all the flawed defensive players who busted.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#232 » by DRose4MVP » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:49 am

JDRochholz wrote:I got to see this guy play quite frequently here in Omaha. Trust me when I say....Bird 2.0


Yeah.. You might be reaching a bit there.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#233 » by LoveDaBoo » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:00 am

DRose4MVP wrote:
JDRochholz wrote:I got to see this guy play quite frequently here in Omaha. Trust me when I say....Bird 2.0


Yeah.. You might be reaching a bit there.

I agree (not much of a reach on that one) but he really is an extremely talented scorer. I'm not a better talent-evaluator than the Bulls, so I'll defer to them in this case.

I was "that guy" with Kevin Love. How's that pudgy white-boy going to translate? C'mon! Well...
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#234 » by Leslie Forman » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:20 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I guess you'd have to do a study of players drafted at the same number slot and play a percentage game to determine that if you really cared. Saying there are better wings that are black doesn't say anything. There are 25 black dudes for every white guy. Obviously.

That is part of my point, though. A lot of the black players who were busts were still pretty good prospects. They just busted. It happens. Most of the white guys picked high had absolutely no business being picked that high because they simply never had the ceiling similarly ranked black guys did.

If you're a black wing player who's a tweener, unathletic, terrible at defense, can't score off the dribble, can't create for others, but put up big stats in college, you're a late first at best, not a top-10 pick.
Magilla_Gorilla wrote:Tong Po didn't post a list of all the flawed defensive players who busted.

When a white American perimeter player who is truly deserving of being a really high pick comes around, I'll acknowledge that he's a great prospect. I truly believe there simply hasn't been one in ages however, which is why I have the opinions I do concerning this.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#235 » by kodo » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:21 am

JohnnyKILLroy wrote:People know very little about Doug it seems.

Comparing him to Morrison and Babbitt is crazy.

His offense alone makes him bust proof especially under a coach like Thibs who will use him correctly.

His isn't a bad athlete.


Babbit (soph year): 22 ppg 8.9 rpg 42% 3P
McDermott (senior year): 26 ppg 8.2 rpg 44% 3P
* McDermott his soph year scored 22 ppg similar to Babbitt

Height w/o Shoes:
Babbit: 6' 7.5"
McDermott: 6' 6.25"

Max Vertical:
Babbit: 37.5"
McDermoot: 36.5"

Babbit was plenty athletic on the college level, at least as much as McDermott.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0_PCqoB0aI

McDermott did a lot of scoring in the paint on post-up moves, fadeaways, baby hooks, lob passes, etc.. That kind of stuff disappears on the NBA level for all 6'7" - 6'8" tweeners like Beasley, Derrick Williams, Hansbrough, etc..

He'll still have his shooting but I don't see the tools beyond being a spot up shooter in the NBA.
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"He's a college four-man," former Magic head coach Stan Van Gundy told me on NBC Sports Radio. "Size-wise, you would think he would have to be an [NBA] three-man. I don't know who he is going to be able to guard in the NBA. I don't know if he can guard three's or fours. He'll certainly be an NBA player and a good one, but his ceiling could be a back-up type guy."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/ne ... z35WUxcvIf
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#236 » by bearadonisdna » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:23 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:
tong po wrote:Every single white American perimeter player drafted in the last ten years (i.e. the Posthinrichian Era):

Luke Jackson
Blake Stepp
Travis Diener
Adam Morrison
JJ Redick (eventually became a decent player)
Steve Novak
Adam Haluska
Jared Jordan
Joe Alexander
Chase Budinger (a decent rotation player for a while there)
Nick Calathes
Gordon Hayward (mediocre starter)
Luke Babbitt
Andy Rautins
Jimmer Fredette
Kyle Singler
Chandler Parsons (Hey! He's pretty damn good!)
Robbie Hummel
Nate Wolters

I absolutely hate McDermott as a prospect and it has nothing to do with him being white. However, if someone were to say that they simply don't want to draft a white American wing player that high…I ain't gonna argue. It is a risky proposition that seems to have little correlation with draft position.


U obviously forgot kevin love.


If u were to post a listing of black wing players that have been busts over the last 5 years, the list would exceed the post limits.


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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#237 » by Costa78 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:24 am

JDRochholz wrote:I got to see this guy play quite frequently here in Omaha. Trust me when I say....Bird 2.0


I'm more afraid of him turning out to be Morrison 2.0
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#238 » by Red Larrivee » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:28 am

Susan wrote:Can anybody find me a player who averaged as few steals/blocks as this dude did in college and then went on to have a successful NBA career?

Those two stats are pretty good indicators whether somebody's game will translate over into the NBA.


What does that have to do with McDermott shooting a basketball or cutting to the rim?

McDermott could end up being a pretty bad NBA defender, but he could also end up becoming a pretty good complimentary offensive player too.

Edit: FWIW, I agree that McDermott at 8 is a reach, but I disagree with the reasons that he can't be a good basketball player being simplified down to "he's white.'
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#239 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:29 am

tong po wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I guess you'd have to do a study of players drafted at the same number slot and play a percentage game to determine that if you really cared. Saying there are better wings that are black doesn't say anything. There are 25 black dudes for every white guy. Obviously.

That is part of my point, though. A lot of the black players who were busts were still pretty good prospects. They just busted. It happens. Most of the white guys picked high had absolutely no business being picked that high because they simply never had the ceiling similarly ranked black guys did.

If you're a black wing player who's a tweener, unathletic, terrible at defense, can't score off the dribble, can't create for others, but put up big stats in college, you're a late first at best, not a top-10 pick.
Magilla_Gorilla wrote:Tong Po didn't post a list of all the flawed defensive players who busted.

When a white American perimeter player who is truly deserving of being a really high pick comes around, I'll acknowledge that he's a great prospect. I truly believe there simply hasn't been one in ages however, which is why I have the opinions I do concerning this.


:lol: so a white player picked 8 isn't deserving of the spot, he was picked because a gm is looking to lose his job? If the consensus on a player is he is a top 10 pick (and all gms agree, mocks have him there), then he is obviously deserving of that indication that he is that level prospect. Gms don't make picks out of pity.

You realize McDermotts athleticism at the combines were better than most wings of all colors slotted after him right?

Meanwhile joe Alexander's athleticism was off the charts. Better than Gordon Hayward's. That didn't really work out.

Let me make it simple: find all wings drafted at roughly the same spot, whose projected pro careers were roughly the same. Then work the percentages.
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Re: Bulls looking at No. 8 with McDermott 

Post#240 » by RememberLu » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:32 am

but we already have Jimmer you guys, we already have Jimmer and we don't even play him.

No team is big enough for TWO white guys who shoot well but can't defend.

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