Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[nrockwaychicago]

11 pages already. you guys sure do like your drama.


edit: make that 12!

[DuckIII]

Sounds to me like Jimmy is more mad at his teammates than Fred. He's not complaining about subs or tactics, he's saying some guys aren't trying hard enough and they need to be called out.

Its both. He's putting himself on an island, throwing tantrums after individual games he's not happy with, and throwing everyone but himself under the bus. Where were these comments after a 4 game winning streak?

It didn't bother me early when I felt some vets needed a kick in the pants, but now he is just being a baby.

[GetBuLLish]

The timing of Jimmy's comments makes it abundantly obvious what he's talking about.

Jimmy stunk it up last night since he played 56 minutes the night prior. Rose stunk it up even worse since he played 54 minutes the night prior. And Gasol didn't even make the trip to New York. So what does that mean? That means the team was relying on its younger guys, aka the "future" of this team, to compete with and beat the Knicks, who aren't a great team. So what did our young guys -- Niko, Snell, and McDermott -- do? Well they proceeded to play their varying degrees of putrid defense and inept offense, leading to a non-competitive game at MSG.

Then combine what happened in NY with what happened the night before. Against Detroit, Jimmy and Rose basically laid it all out on the floor only to lose in 4OT. And why did they lose? Because the "future" of the team shot a combined 3-16, while all playing varying degrees of bad defense (with Mirotic and Doug playing laughably bad defense).

Then combine the theory that Hoiberg was brought in to coddle the fragile mental states of our young future players after Thibs had destroyed their confidence (which almost this entire board believed), and it becomes clear to me what's going on.

[MrSparkle]

I don't see why people are twisting their panties over Jimmy's comments.

The Bulls have blown out 1 team this season; the freaking Sixers. Otherwise, they've been treading water and losing a lot of games they should've won. Fred is running a loose/friendly rotation, giving everyone except the rookie multiple chances. No one is playing heavy minutes. Yet the effort consistently is sub-par.

And people are moaning about Jimmy stirring things up and calling people out? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Does this board ever make any sense? You're pissed about the team's performance, but now you're pissed that the leader is trying to get everybody to step up their game? Absolutely absurd.

It's not like he's having verbal altercations with Fred. He's pointing things out with subtle hints of different issues.

[Red Larrivee]

I don't see why people are twisting their panties over Jimmy's comments.

The Bulls have blown out 1 team this season; the freaking Sixers. Otherwise, they've been treading water and losing a lot of games they should've won. Fred is running a loose/friendly rotation, giving everyone except the rookie multiple chances. No one is playing heavy minutes. Yet the effort consistently is sub-par.

And people are moaning about Jimmy stirring things up and calling people out? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Does this board ever make any sense? You're pissed about the team's performance, but now you're pissed that the leader is trying to get everybody to step up their game? Absolutely absurd.

It's not like he's having verbal altercations with Fred. He's pointing things out with subtle hints of different issues.

Leaders don't make comments like these, unless of course you're DeMarcus Cousins.

As Duck is saying, Jimmy is putting himself on an island with these comments. People believe that not only is he throwing a rookie head coach under the bus in December, but also an unspecified amount of teammates. It's not a good look.

These comments are going to linger throughout the season.

[Red8911]

I don't see why people are twisting their panties over Jimmy's comments.

The Bulls have blown out 1 team this season; the freaking Sixers. Otherwise, they've been treading water and losing a lot of games they should've won. Fred is running a loose/friendly rotation, giving everyone except the rookie multiple chances. No one is playing heavy minutes. Yet the effort consistently is sub-par.

And people are moaning about Jimmy stirring things up and calling people out? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Does this board ever make any sense? You're pissed about the team's performance, but now you're pissed that the leader is trying to get everybody to step up their game? Absolutely absurd.

It's not like he's having verbal altercations with Fred. He's pointing things out with subtle hints of different issues.

Nah jimmys pretty much telling Fred you don't know how to coach this team and doing a bad job.That shouldn't be said to the media,it's embarrassing, now everyone is going to be talking about this from tnt to ESPN on Christmas guaranteed.Doesnt matter if he was right. Fred should honestly go off on him for doing that.

[unknownnewbie]

I don't see why people are twisting their panties over Jimmy's comments.

The Bulls have blown out 1 team this season; the freaking Sixers. Otherwise, they've been treading water and losing a lot of games they should've won. Fred is running a loose/friendly rotation, giving everyone except the rookie multiple chances. No one is playing heavy minutes. Yet the effort consistently is sub-par.

And people are moaning about Jimmy stirring things up and calling people out? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Does this board ever make any sense? You're pissed about the team's performance, but now you're pissed that the leader is trying to get everybody to step up their game? Absolutely absurd.

It's not like he's having verbal altercations with Fred. He's pointing things out with subtle hints of different issues.

You see no problem with his comments? Seriously?

He's pointing fingers at everybody except himself. How is that being a leader? First of all, going to the media is the easy way out. Has he bothered to go to his teammates and/or to Hoiberg to discuss any of this?

Do you think Jimmy would want Hoiberg or one of the other Bulls going to the media to complain about his atrocious defense in the last 2 games? Or his continual assistance on refusing to run any offense in favor of ISO plays for himself?

Jimmy is a fantastic player, but he needs to STFU and attempt to solve his problems privately, not by running to the media

[DuckIII]

Ah memories, remember Charles Oakley called out pink?

That was soo wrong of Oakley. Players shouldn't call out coaches. Charles was eventually proven to be completely incorrect.

You can't possibly be equating these scenarios.

[Red Larrivee]

Kudos to Jimmy here for doing what Thibodeau should have done, Fred should be doing and what the front office should have understood!!!!

I still don't understand this POV. As someone mentioned, it's like applauding Brandon Marshall for calling out Marc Trestman after losses, though Hoiberg's coaching flaws have not translated to losses like Trestman. Regardless of the flaws of your coach, you don't throw him under the bus to the media, especially when the team played 4 OT's the other day and a drag was expected.

I'll again bring up that everyone is quick to look for Bulls players to point fingers at, but there's a reasonable angle to look at the 180 in personality change Butler has gone through since last season. I still have trouble believing players like Noah, Rose, Gibson, or Hinrich ( ) are tearing the locker room apart, when they were significant pieces on those 60 win Bulls teams that had a real brotherhood.

[Dajody10]

As I've said on here for the last two years, this team has fully taken the identity of Mr. Derrick Rose. When Rose coasts, the Bulls coast, when Rose attacks, the Bulls attack. If you people can't see this yet, then you're never going to see it. The identity of this team lies in Derrick Rose. Rose was engaged and attacked the previous two games, and everyone followed. Rose decided against NY that he was going to pull back, let the other guys take over, and the team folded. This team goes and Rose goes - so unless Rose becomes the consistent attacking player we saw against Memphis and Detroit, this is the up and down nature we're going to see. Rose is the PG, the engine, and he dictates how this team plays on a nightly basis.

I personally took JB's comments as more of an attack on his teammates - saying Hoiberg does not have the luxury of letting his players control themselves, they need to be pushed because they can't handle doing it themselves. I personally think the tension lies between Rose and Butler - I know JB cannot stand how Rose plays hard when he wants to, and loafs around when he is disengaged. Rose is the heart of the problem, and the solution - it all lies in Derrick Rose's hands.

Lastly, this team is so in need of a shakeup it's beyond scary if GarPax don't see it. The team has gone stale, these guys have been around one another for too long without consistent progress - the roster has peaked and now its starting to crumble from within. Started last year, and it's continuing through this year with a new coach. If the Bulls don't make an in-season move, it's time to fully give up on GarPax. And as a side note, Nikola Mirotic is the new Tyrus Thomas - so unbelievable overrated on this board after a small sample size of success - always someone on the Bulls has to take this role. LOL

[League Circles]

I want this guy gone. I don't really like or respect him. Lots of players have played well for a year or two. Jimmy thinks his **** doesn't stink. I just don't really enjoy his role on this team. He really hasn't accomplished that much. Dude is nut hugging a 20 year older movie star. Wtf? Remember his lame ass **** with the stuffed animal? He's not cool but he's dumb enough to think he's as cool as they come.

He's at an absolute all time high trade value. Playing great and locked up for 5 years.

Joakim noah is and should be the vocal leader of this team. Even if he plays 20 mpg for the next few years.

I'm not a huge fan of hoiberg though I'm not going to go against him yet.

No doubt about it, what jimmy did is just stupid. It's low IQ stuff. Doesn't he realize that he's now put fred in a position of losing the rest of the team by following jimmys public suggestions, or lose jimmy by ignoring him?

This bs isn't going to galvanize the team. Also, the team isn't playing with poor effort. #2 defenses don't do that. Yes rose and pau do things we don't like but they're playing to win.

[coldfish]

Ah memories, remember Charles Oakley called out pink?

That was soo wrong of Oakley. Players shouldn't call out coaches. Charles was eventually proven to be completely incorrect.

You can't possibly be equating these scenarios.

Completely equal? Of course not. No two situations are exactly the same. That said, Oakley ended up being proven correct and its quite possible that Butler will be too in the long term. There is a potential parallel.

Kudos to Jimmy here for doing what Thibodeau should have done, Fred should be doing and what the front office should have understood!!!!

I still don't understand this POV. As someone mentioned, it's like applauding Brandon Marshall for calling out Marc Trestman after losses, though Hoiberg's coaching flaws have not translated to losses like Trestman. Regardless of the flaws of your coach, you don't throw him under the bus to the media, especially when the team played 4 OT's the other day and a drag was expected.

I'll again bring up that everyone is quick to look for Bulls players to point fingers at, but there's a reasonable angle to look at the 180 in personality change Butler has gone through since last season. I still have trouble believing players like Noah, Rose, Gibson, or Hinrich ( ) are tearing the locker room apart, when they were significant pieces on those 60 win Bulls teams that had a real brotherhood.

There are clearly two camps in this fanbase and they don't seem to have any overlap. As I said somewhere today, the Bulls metrics right now point to them missing the playoffs. That would be an awful waste. IMO, something drastic needs to change and this type of public comment tends to lead to that, which is why I applaud it.

As far as players? I think its Rose, Pau and maybe a little Mirotic. Rose really seems to be a different person than he was before the injuries and quite frankly, I'm not sure I blame him.

As far as Hoiberg? His claim to fame so far is changing the starting lineup. People need to realize just how low Thibodeau set the bar on that though. What he did in that regard was ridiculous. Outside of that? Schemes, game preparation, in game adjustments and rotations (particularly in the 4th), player motivation, etc. Hoiberg is starting to look like a really crappy coach. He is only 25 games in so he deserves some time but there are some signs that the Bulls just locked themselves into a sub par coach.

And yeah, Hoiberg personally lost that Detroit game and probably a few others. His inability to deal with what Detroit was doing in the 4th lead to the overtimes which may have lead to the NY loss.

[bennjuiced34]

Jimmy always talks about being a better leader and having to be one and yet this season he seems to be doing everything to be anything but a good leader. I give him rope because he is new to this role, but the one thing he needs to eventually learn is that it's much more productive to say the things that he feels to the people directly and behind closed doors and not lay out your dirty laundry out to the media, because I don't think I've ever seen anything positive happen with that method.

It's not at the point of being devastating to the team but if he continues on his way, as opposed to being a leader his teammates will eventually turn on him and leave him to drive when sh*t hits the fan. And once that happens you get a ruputation around the league also.

The thing is he has been nothing but a upstanding professional thus far, so as long as he takes a breathe, and finds a different method to release his frustrations he will be fine. Right now, he is letting out his frustration through the media and he will realize it's not the most effective way.

I still believe in Jimmy. If he learned to turn himself into an All-star player, I have faith that he will turn himself into a good leader also.

Jimmy is frustrated imo, because to start the year he tried to take on the leadership mantle, and it hasn't taken for the team. Instead they still play with the inconsistency and effort represented in the games of Pau and Rose.

Jimmy tries to speak up in the huddle and on the floor, and gets nowhere, so he is finally looking to bump it up the chain and try to get some help from Fred, when the team isn't executing the gameplan.

And we know it isn't recent, as they haven't been doing what Fred wants on offense for the whole year.

Again, speak softly and carry a big stick. Jimmy came into this season saying he was going to be a more vocal leader because this team needed it.

This is exactly what he's doing, although it's not how he should be doing it. You call names to the media and it's a bad move, any way you slice it.

No matter how bad it gets, you never call people out individually to the press, especially when you're a leader.

It'll be interesting to see how Fred handles this both internally and externally.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[pb-ceo]

I don't see why people are twisting their panties over Jimmy's comments.

The Bulls have blown out 1 team this season; the freaking Sixers. Otherwise, they've been treading water and losing a lot of games they should've won. Fred is running a loose/friendly rotation, giving everyone except the rookie multiple chances. No one is playing heavy minutes. Yet the effort consistently is sub-par.

And people are moaning about Jimmy stirring things up and calling people out? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Does this board ever make any sense? You're pissed about the team's performance, but now you're pissed that the leader is trying to get everybody to step up their game? Absolutely absurd.

It's not like he's having verbal altercations with Fred. He's pointing things out with subtle hints of different issues.

You see no problem with his comments? Seriously?

He's pointing fingers at everybody except himself. How is that being a leader? First of all, going to the media is the easy way out. Has he bothered to go to his teammates and/or to Hoiberg to discuss any of this?

Do you think Jimmy would want Hoiberg or one of the other Bulls going to the media to complain about his atrocious defense in the last 2 games? Or his continual assistance on refusing to run any offense in favor of ISO plays for himself?

Jimmy is a fantastic player, but he needs to STFU and attempt to solve his problems privately, not by running to the media

wrong. he said "including me".

[League Circles]

Maybe jimmy thinks fred should be prioritizing winning every game, whereas maybe the coach, FO and other players are more concerned with experimenting with what works so that we know more when the playoffs come. I don't know. I just know that Jimmy is turning me off. He has tremendous trade value. Along with another piece or two he could get us a better player IMO.

[Red Larrivee]

As far as players? I think its Rose, Pau and maybe a little Mirotic. Rose really seems to be a different person than he was before the injuries and quite frankly, I'm not sure I blame him.

Regardless, when's the last time Rose threw a teammate or coach under the bus to the media? Has it ever happened? MVP Rose never did that. Current Rose doesn't do that. So why should Jimmy be allowed to? He's acting like a diva in post game interviews with his brutally honest approach. It's not working.

As far as Hoiberg? His claim to fame so far is changing the starting lineup. People need to realize just how low Thibodeau set the bar on that though. What he did in that regard was ridiculous. Outside of that? Schemes, game preparation, in game adjustments and rotations (particularly in the 4th), player motivation, etc. Hoiberg is starting to look like a really crappy coach. He is only 25 games in so he deserves some time but there are some signs that the Bulls just locked themselves into a sub par coach.

Thibodeau's coaching declined significantly and his stubborness contributed to the team losing games. Thibodeau's rotations were awful and the team was clearly no longer motivated by him. Not to mention what occured behind the scenes, where Thibodeau somehow turned an entire organization AND ownership against him.

I give Hoiberg credit for adapting to each game, while Thibodeau's rotations are set in stone from Day 1. I expect his schemes and game preparation to be very good for someone who apparently has no life outside of basketball.

And yeah, Hoiberg personally lost that Detroit game and probably a few others. His inability to deal with what Detroit was doing in the 4th lead to the overtimes which may have lead to the NY loss.

Gasol clearly can't defend the high pick/roll, but he was also really big for us offensively and hit a number of key shots. Not much you can do there and Thibodeau dealt with the same things. Personel problem, sure. Hoiberg flaw? Absolutely not.

[JasonFTW]

Ouch. Not good to call out the coach especially a rookie coach. I hope Hoiberg doesn't lose the team now.

[pb-ceo]

As I've said on here for the last two years, this team has fully taken the identity of Mr. Derrick Rose. When Rose coasts, the Bulls coast, when Rose attacks, the Bulls attack. If you people can't see this yet, then you're never going to see it. The identity of this team lies in Derrick Rose. Rose was engaged and attacked the previous two games, and everyone followed. Rose decided against NY that he was going to pull back, let the other guys take over, and the team folded. This team goes and Rose goes - so unless Rose becomes the consistent attacking player we saw against Memphis and Detroit, this is the up and down nature we're going to see. Rose is the PG, the engine, and he dictates how this team plays on a nightly basis.

I personally took JB's comments as more of an attack on his teammates - saying Hoiberg does not have the luxury of letting his players control themselves, they need to be pushed because they can't handle doing it themselves. I personally think the tension lies between Rose and Butler - I know JB cannot stand how Rose plays hard when he wants to, and loafs around when he is disengaged. Rose is the heart of the problem, and the solution - it all lies in Derrick Rose's hands.

Lastly, this team is so in need of a shakeup it's beyond scary if GarPax don't see it. The team has gone stale, these guys have been around one another for too long without consistent progress - the roster has peaked and now its starting to crumble from within. Started last year, and it's continuing through this year with a new coach. If the Bulls don't make an in-season move, it's time to fully give up on GarPax. And as a side note, Nikola Mirotic is the new Tyrus Thomas - so unbelievable overrated on this board after a small sample size of success - always someone on the Bulls has to take this role. LOL

I agree. the pg is the motor of the team. sometimes it's revving. sometimes it's sputtering. the FO has to understand the chemistry problem here and the lack of fit for hoiball. buckets has 4 more years on his deal and is going nowhere. hoiberg has 4 more years on his deal and is going nowhere. starting pg has 1 more year on his deal. the math isn't hard folks.

[the ultimates]

Jimmy be professional and keep those things in house. If you think a coach should get on players more go talk to your coach don't make those comments to the media. No matter what clarification is used in the days afterward you don't open up that can of worms. He has to know better than that. Some in the thread of brought up offense. Definitely Rose and Gasol need to play better but Jimmy himself needs to play different. He's turned into an efficient but ball stopping player. People ask what Hoiberg's offense is or what its supposed to be doing and you can see the execution and idea in the the 2nd unit.

[Dajody10]

As I've said on here for the last two years, this team has fully taken the identity of Mr. Derrick Rose. When Rose coasts, the Bulls coast, when Rose attacks, the Bulls attack. If you people can't see this yet, then you're never going to see it. The identity of this team lies in Derrick Rose. Rose was engaged and attacked the previous two games, and everyone followed. Rose decided against NY that he was going to pull back, let the other guys take over, and the team folded. This team goes and Rose goes - so unless Rose becomes the consistent attacking player we saw against Memphis and Detroit, this is the up and down nature we're going to see. Rose is the PG, the engine, and he dictates how this team plays on a nightly basis.

I personally took JB's comments as more of an attack on his teammates - saying Hoiberg does not have the luxury of letting his players control themselves, they need to be pushed because they can't handle doing it themselves. I personally think the tension lies between Rose and Butler - I know JB cannot stand how Rose plays hard when he wants to, and loafs around when he is disengaged. Rose is the heart of the problem, and the solution - it all lies in Derrick Rose's hands.

Lastly, this team is so in need of a shakeup it's beyond scary if GarPax don't see it. The team has gone stale, these guys have been around one another for too long without consistent progress - the roster has peaked and now its starting to crumble from within. Started last year, and it's continuing through this year with a new coach. If the Bulls don't make an in-season move, it's time to fully give up on GarPax. And as a side note, Nikola Mirotic is the new Tyrus Thomas - so unbelievable overrated on this board after a small sample size of success - always someone on the Bulls has to take this role. LOL

I agree. the pg is the motor of the team. sometimes it's revving. sometimes it's sputtering. the FO has to understand the chemistry problem here and the lack of fit for hoiball. buckets has 4 more years on his deal and is going nowhere. hoiberg has 4 more years on his deal and is going nowhere. starting pg has 1 more year on his deal. the math isn't hard folks.

They say Ty Lawson is available, and I actually think he would be a nice fit in Hoiball - a guy who wants to run, push the ball, break down the defense. The Rockets are as dysfunctional as the Bulls, so why not make a move with them?

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nmtf49v