Would the Bulls 'reset' and trade Jimmy Butler this offseason ? What would Celtics need to give you?

[PrimzyBulls81]

FIRST TRADE D ROSE,start rebuild with that.. JIMMY should stay!

[DASMACKDOWN]

But I only imagine 2017 versions of Dragan Tarlac, Kornell David, Rusty Larue and Dalibor Bagaric

I hate the word treadmill team. You first become a treadmill team and improve/add that to a treadmill team. Don't take 2 steps back. Getting to be a treadmill team is damn difficult. That tier from lottery to treadmill to contender is a lot of steps to climb. You don't go from lottery to contender. Look at New Orleans with a top 5 player and a rim protector in Asik, good guards in Holliday and Evans. They are still terrible. For every Boston, they are a half-a-dozen New Orleans, Philadelphia type teams.

Yup this is exactly what I am saying.

I even look at a team like Portland who basically tried tanking but their own guys just got better. But imagine if they had just kept Batum. He got traded for Henderson and Noah Vonleh. Noah Vonleh basically sucks right now. Batum also isnt old at 27.

They could have retooled on the fly just by Aldridge deciding to leave.

[Fl_Flash]

Yep. +1 mech and dasmackdown

End of the day, shrewd GMs like Ainge aren't gonna buy Jimmy in a trade unless it's a low-ball offer accepted.

Possibly. I also think Ainge is smart enough to know the Celtics time is now. They're a good, young, up-and-coming team. More draft picks aren't necessarily going to help them. A guy like Butler is appealing in their situation. Ainge doesn't need the bodies and would do well to consolidate some. He can try to low-ball GarPax but I don't think it'll work. IF there is a deal to be had with Boston - it's not a bad way to go for both teams.

IMO, 2-5 pick sounds good on paper, but OJ Mayo, Dion Waiters, Ben Gordon and Wesley Johnson were picked in that range too.

Cherry-picking lottery busts is easy. There are just as many, if not more, high-lottery players who either become perennial all-stars or at worst - rotational players. You're certainly not going to replace Butlers production right away. You're rolling the dice on a couple of young players. It's a gamble for sure. The alternative is what we have now. It ain't working.

I keep saying it, but I think most folks are completely delusional with the FO's drafting ability. They've had as many busts and mediocre "walk-in-free-agency" picks as success stories.

To me, besides 1.7/concensus #1 Rose... there were 4 impact-player picks here: Deng, Noah, Taj, Jimmy. Noah and Deng were fringe all-stars, but they proved to be incapable of carrying a team alone. Besides Rose, Jimmy is the only player drafted since 1987 that I feel has the 2-way talent to carry a team on his shoulders. I loved their effort... But you know that Lu and Jo could never score on playoff defense. That's why Rose played hero ball.

My point is, this FO has had a serious issue drafting scoring talent. We get hyped about our energy players when they're young... But what about the lotto guys that amounted to nothing? Tyrus, Thabo, Johnson, Gordon. Kirk was a role-player that got the respect of an HOF player. Yet he never made an all-star game.

Besides for Jimmy and Rose, this FO has not drafted 1 guy you can't sign in any regular free agency period. You can't win without guys who can score at will.

All teams have had draft busts. That doesn't mean you don't draft. You have to. I think the Bulls FO has a pretty decent track record in the draft. You can't hit homeruns with every pick. Most drafts if you can come away with at least a rotational player, you've done alright.

Butler is not a guy who puts a team on his back and wills them to wins. He hasn't really done that much this season. He's had a few outstanding games. Yet, he disappears as much as he shows up. He's a solid #2 or #3 option. He's hardly a Dwane Wade-caliber player.

As for signing players in Free Agency - what were the Bulls supposed to do? There are 29 other teams that are also vying for those Free Agents. Some have much more money to offer. It's easy to say woulda-shoulda-coulda. It' a lot more difficult to do. The Bulls have to get some of these albatross contracts (*cough* *Rose* *Noah* *cough*) off their books.

I don't disagree with the team needing to get some athletes and guys who can create offense. Hence, one of the reasons for being OK with moving Butler for the right deal.

With the right moves, I don't see this team as all-of-a-sudden being lottery bound for the next 5 to 7 years.

[jmajew]

I wouldn't be looking to make a deal with Celtics. I'd be focusing on making a deal with the 76ers. They have poor fitting parts in Noel and Okafor. I'd be angling to trade for either one of them in a Jimmy deal. I'd also try to get their 1st rd pick this year in a pick swap as well.

Jimmy isn't the problem, but he also isn't the answer.

[Mech Engineer]

But I only imagine 2017 versions of Dragan Tarlac, Kornell David, Rusty Larue and Dalibor Bagaric

I hate the word treadmill team. You first become a treadmill team and improve/add that to a treadmill team. Don't take 2 steps back. Getting to be a treadmill team is damn difficult. That tier from lottery to treadmill to contender is a lot of steps to climb. You don't go from lottery to contender. Look at New Orleans with a top 5 player and a rim protector in Asik, good guards in Holliday and Evans. They are still terrible. For every Boston, they are a half-a-dozen New Orleans, Philadelphia type teams.

Yup this is exactly what I am saying.

I even look at a team like Portland who basically tried tanking but their own guys just got better. But imagine if they had just kept Batum. He got traded for Henderson and Noah Vonleh. Noah Vonleh basically sucks right now. Batum also isnt old at 27.

They could have retooled on the fly just by Aldridge deciding to leave.

The issue is Jimmy has proven that he has all-star skills and is a 2-way player. He is having some mental difficulties because of injuries, new coach, new responsibilities and maybe most of it is his own doing. He wanted to be that superstar like a LeBron, Durant and a leader. Just because he had improved every year, he assumed this next step would also easily happen. He has failed with that step. He will re-evaluate his game and learn from this.

There is no point dumping him for some unknown picks/average players. You also don't have to decide whether Jimmy is 1st or 2nd option. Jimmy is a smart guy and will learn. All good/great players take time to learn the team game. LeBron, MJ all have had difficulties adjusting when to pass/shoot/drive decisions.

[YettiBull]

Trading Butler would be a terrible move. He actually plays both ways,but is playing hurt now. His contract is friendly, we just need a true SG and a few athletic bigs

[chrispatrick]

Yep. +1 mech and dasmackdown

End of the day, shrewd GMs like Ainge aren't gonna buy Jimmy in a trade unless it's a low-ball offer accepted.

Possibly. I also think Ainge is smart enough to know the Celtics time is now. They're a good, young, up-and-coming team. More draft picks aren't necessarily going to help them. A guy like Butler is appealing in their situation. Ainge doesn't need the bodies and would do well to consolidate some. He can try to low-ball GarPax but I don't think it'll work. IF there is a deal to be had with Boston - it's not a bad way to go for both teams.

IMO, 2-5 pick sounds good on paper, but OJ Mayo, Dion Waiters, Ben Gordon and Wesley Johnson were picked in that range too.

Cherry-picking lottery busts is easy. There are just as many, if not more, high-lottery players who either become perennial all-stars or at worst - rotational players. You're certainly not going to replace Butlers production right away. You're rolling the dice on a couple of young players. It's a gamble for sure. The alternative is what we have now. It ain't working.

I keep saying it, but I think most folks are completely delusional with the FO's drafting ability. They've had as many busts and mediocre "walk-in-free-agency" picks as success stories.

To me, besides 1.7/concensus #1 Rose... there were 4 impact-player picks here: Deng, Noah, Taj, Jimmy. Noah and Deng were fringe all-stars, but they proved to be incapable of carrying a team alone. Besides Rose, Jimmy is the only player drafted since 1987 that I feel has the 2-way talent to carry a team on his shoulders. I loved their effort... But you know that Lu and Jo could never score on playoff defense. That's why Rose played hero ball.

My point is, this FO has had a serious issue drafting scoring talent. We get hyped about our energy players when they're young... But what about the lotto guys that amounted to nothing? Tyrus, Thabo, Johnson, Gordon. Kirk was a role-player that got the respect of an HOF player. Yet he never made an all-star game.

Besides for Jimmy and Rose, this FO has not drafted 1 guy you can't sign in any regular free agency period. You can't win without guys who can score at will.

All teams have had draft busts. That doesn't mean you don't draft. You have to. I think the Bulls FO has a pretty decent track record in the draft. You can't hit homeruns with every pick. Most drafts if you can come away with at least a rotational player, you've done alright.

Butler is not a guy who puts a team on his back and wills them to wins. He hasn't really done that much this season. He's had a few outstanding games. Yet, he disappears as much as he shows up. He's a solid #2 or #3 option. He's hardly a Dwane Wade-caliber player.

As for signing players in Free Agency - what were the Bulls supposed to do? There are 29 other teams that are also vying for those Free Agents. Some have much more money to offer. It's easy to say woulda-shoulda-coulda. It' a lot more difficult to do. The Bulls have to get some of these albatross contracts (*cough* *Rose* *Noah* *cough*) off their books.

I don't disagree with the team needing to get some athletes and guys who can create offense. Hence, one of the reasons for being OK with moving Butler for the right deal.

With the right moves, I don't see this team as all-of-a-sudden being lottery bound for the next 5 to 7 years.

Butler pretty much did put this team on his back and will them to wins early in the season. He was creating offense and doing it efficiently nearly every game.

We had no reason to be a winning team at the time given the grand canyon sized hole at SF and Rose's off the charts early season inefficiency. Unfortunately, Butler hasn't looked like that player post injury and has been unable to consistently deliver the efficient two way performances that bailed this awful team out so many times early in the season and last season.

He was pretty much a model of consistency until the knee. Whether the knee is a problem going forward, I have no idea... that's the real issue, because prior to that he was playing as well as anyone in the league aside from the guys who single handedly can make teams contenders like LeBron and Steph.

[Talclipse]

Celtics poster claims this was more than imagination at the deadline, but no idea of his credentials. Knowing what we know about how the Bulls operate and Jimmy's reported friction with the team, it wouldn't shock me.

Correct
Jimmy Butler was the target. A friend works in the front office, the deal agreed to was Jimmy Butler for Marcus Smart, Jae Crowder, and Nets ’16 Pick. Agreed to by Celtics and Bulls, but Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf vetoed the trade. The Celtics will try again for Butler in the offseason.

by greenteam17

our team issues came at the very sametime of JBs ascension.wasn't Tom,doesn't seem it's fred,nor Rose or Noah.could be Pau,but i doubt it as that would have shown up in LA.

[nitetrain8603]

Yep. +1 mech and dasmackdown

End of the day, shrewd GMs like Ainge aren't gonna buy Jimmy in a trade unless it's a low-ball offer accepted.

Possibly. I also think Ainge is smart enough to know the Celtics time is now. They're a good, young, up-and-coming team. More draft picks aren't necessarily going to help them. A guy like Butler is appealing in their situation. Ainge doesn't need the bodies and would do well to consolidate some. He can try to low-ball GarPax but I don't think it'll work. IF there is a deal to be had with Boston - it's not a bad way to go for both teams.

IMO, 2-5 pick sounds good on paper, but OJ Mayo, Dion Waiters, Ben Gordon and Wesley Johnson were picked in that range too.

Cherry-picking lottery busts is easy. There are just as many, if not more, high-lottery players who either become perennial all-stars or at worst - rotational players. You're certainly not going to replace Butlers production right away. You're rolling the dice on a couple of young players. It's a gamble for sure. The alternative is what we have now. It ain't working.

I keep saying it, but I think most folks are completely delusional with the FO's drafting ability. They've had as many busts and mediocre "walk-in-free-agency" picks as success stories.

To me, besides 1.7/concensus #1 Rose... there were 4 impact-player picks here: Deng, Noah, Taj, Jimmy. Noah and Deng were fringe all-stars, but they proved to be incapable of carrying a team alone. Besides Rose, Jimmy is the only player drafted since 1987 that I feel has the 2-way talent to carry a team on his shoulders. I loved their effort... But you know that Lu and Jo could never score on playoff defense. That's why Rose played hero ball.

My point is, this FO has had a serious issue drafting scoring talent. We get hyped about our energy players when they're young... But what about the lotto guys that amounted to nothing? Tyrus, Thabo, Johnson, Gordon. Kirk was a role-player that got the respect of an HOF player. Yet he never made an all-star game.

Besides for Jimmy and Rose, this FO has not drafted 1 guy you can't sign in any regular free agency period. You can't win without guys who can score at will.

All teams have had draft busts. That doesn't mean you don't draft. You have to. I think the Bulls FO has a pretty decent track record in the draft. You can't hit homeruns with every pick. Most drafts if you can come away with at least a rotational player, you've done alright.

Butler is not a guy who puts a team on his back and wills them to wins. He hasn't really done that much this season. He's had a few outstanding games. Yet, he disappears as much as he shows up. He's a solid #2 or #3 option. He's hardly a Dwane Wade-caliber player.

As for signing players in Free Agency - what were the Bulls supposed to do? There are 29 other teams that are also vying for those Free Agents. Some have much more money to offer. It's easy to say woulda-shoulda-coulda. It' a lot more difficult to do. The Bulls have to get some of these albatross contracts (*cough* *Rose* *Noah* *cough*) off their books.

I don't disagree with the team needing to get some athletes and guys who can create offense. Hence, one of the reasons for being OK with moving Butler for the right deal.

With the right moves, I don't see this team as all-of-a-sudden being lottery bound for the next 5 to 7 years.

I disagree with your assessment in Jimmy. I think he can be a #1, but, he needs a system he believes in and more importantly a system and team that believes in him.

[bledredwine]

As much as I dislike this team right now, we must keep butler just for the chance of any from Rose/Niko/Doug/Portis to have a breakout season. We know that all four are very talented, two of whom will be entering 3rd year in the league (often a breakout season) and one who will be a sophomore. All it takes is one more legit star next to jimmy, finding the right roll players and the hiring of a coach who isn't a dumbass to have a shot at the finals in this weak conference. As much as I can't stand our team, there's no denying the potential talent. We just need a force inside like Hassan in FA. But imagine if Niko learns to hit the 3 reliably? There is definite upside to this roster and we've got to chance it + try hard to fill needs this offseason (something that we suck at and don't seem to care about. But hey this is desperation).

[Fl_Flash]

I disagree with your assessment in Jimmy. I think he can be a #1, but, he needs a system he believes in and more importantly a system and team that believes in him.

Don't read too much into what I've written. I like Butler. I just don't see him as a #1 and if he is your #1 you're not going far.

If Butler needs to believe in a system and he doesn't believe in the current system - he needs to go. I don't think Hoiberg is getting let go anytime soon. I think the FO gives him at least next season to remake the roster more to his liking. If Butler isn't going to play nice, it would make sense to get value for him.

Finally, if Butler needs to have guys believe in him then I would think it's incumbent upon him to be that kind of teammate. I have no idea what kind of teammate he is. If he wants to be the Alpha Dog he might have greater success elsewhere. If he wants to lead, he needs to become a leader.

[Shill]

I disagree with your assessment in Jimmy. I think he can be a #1, but, he needs a system he believes in and more importantly a system and team that believes in him.

Don't read too much into what I've written. I like Butler. I just don't see him as a #1 and if he is your #1 you're not going far.

If Butler needs to believe in a system and he doesn't believe in the current system - he needs to go. I don't think Hoiberg is getting let go anytime soon. I think the FO gives him at least next season to remake the roster more to his liking. If Butler isn't going to play nice, it would make sense to get value for him.

This is kind of where I am.

I love Jimmy, but I don't think he's a true #1. IMO he would work best in a scenario where the best player is a big, e.g. Anthony Davis. Jimmy wants to dominate the ball, which means he needs to play with a low-usage PG (a 3 & D guy). He'd probably be great in a triangle system with a strong big.

I think we're at the point where we need a total rebuild. Trading Jimmy and hoping to hit pay dirt is probably the best way to accomplish that.

Regardless of whether or not we keep Jimmy, the top priority should be finding an athletic Center who can rebound and defend.

[push]

Yep. +1 mech and dasmackdown

End of the day, shrewd GMs like Ainge aren't gonna buy Jimmy in a trade unless it's a low-ball offer accepted.

Possibly. I also think Ainge is smart enough to know the Celtics time is now. They're a good, young, up-and-coming team. More draft picks aren't necessarily going to help them. A guy like Butler is appealing in their situation. Ainge doesn't need the bodies and would do well to consolidate some. He can try to low-ball GarPax but I don't think it'll work. IF there is a deal to be had with Boston - it's not a bad way to go for both teams.

IMO, 2-5 pick sounds good on paper, but OJ Mayo, Dion Waiters, Ben Gordon and Wesley Johnson were picked in that range too.

Cherry-picking lottery busts is easy. There are just as many, if not more, high-lottery players who either become perennial all-stars or at worst - rotational players. You're certainly not going to replace Butlers production right away. You're rolling the dice on a couple of young players. It's a gamble for sure. The alternative is what we have now. It ain't working.

I keep saying it, but I think most folks are completely delusional with the FO's drafting ability. They've had as many busts and mediocre "walk-in-free-agency" picks as success stories.

To me, besides 1.7/concensus #1 Rose... there were 4 impact-player picks here: Deng, Noah, Taj, Jimmy. Noah and Deng were fringe all-stars, but they proved to be incapable of carrying a team alone. Besides Rose, Jimmy is the only player drafted since 1987 that I feel has the 2-way talent to carry a team on his shoulders. I loved their effort... But you know that Lu and Jo could never score on playoff defense. That's why Rose played hero ball.

My point is, this FO has had a serious issue drafting scoring talent. We get hyped about our energy players when they're young... But what about the lotto guys that amounted to nothing? Tyrus, Thabo, Johnson, Gordon. Kirk was a role-player that got the respect of an HOF player. Yet he never made an all-star game.

Besides for Jimmy and Rose, this FO has not drafted 1 guy you can't sign in any regular free agency period. You can't win without guys who can score at will.

All teams have had draft busts. That doesn't mean you don't draft. You have to. I think the Bulls FO has a pretty decent track record in the draft. You can't hit homeruns with every pick. Most drafts if you can come away with at least a rotational player, you've done alright.

Butler is not a guy who puts a team on his back and wills them to wins. He hasn't really done that much this season. He's had a few outstanding games. Yet, he disappears as much as he shows up. He's a solid #2 or #3 option. He's hardly a Dwane Wade-caliber player.

As for signing players in Free Agency - what were the Bulls supposed to do? There are 29 other teams that are also vying for those Free Agents. Some have much more money to offer. It's easy to say woulda-shoulda-coulda. It' a lot more difficult to do. The Bulls have to get some of these albatross contracts (*cough* *Rose* *Noah* *cough*) off their books.

I don't disagree with the team needing to get some athletes and guys who can create offense. Hence, one of the reasons for being OK with moving Butler for the right deal.

With the right moves, I don't see this team as all-of-a-sudden being lottery bound for the next 5 to 7 years.

I disagree with your assessment in Jimmy. I think he can be a #1, but, he needs a system he believes in and more importantly a system and team that believes in him.

Nah, Butler isn't that guy.

[Shill]

If that were the case, the numerous teams that have dropped their stars would be on top of the league. Namely the Sixers.

Think of Orlando Magic who were FAR WORSE with their star when he was traded.

I don't think there's any obvious path to build a contender.

I just know the current mix isn't working.

If the 6ers hadn't whiffed on their picks, they would be in good shape. If we trade Jimmy for picks, we have to hope we get it right.

[samwana]

Celtics poster claims this was more than imagination at the deadline, but no idea of his credentials. Knowing what we know about how the Bulls operate and Jimmy's reported friction with the team, it wouldn't shock me.

Correct
Jimmy Butler was the target. A friend works in the front office, the deal agreed to was Jimmy Butler for Marcus Smart, Jae Crowder, and Nets ’16 Pick. Agreed to by Celtics and Bulls, but Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf vetoed the trade. The Celtics will try again for Butler in the offseason.

by greenteam17

our team issues came at the very sametime of JBs ascension.wasn't Tom,doesn't seem it's fred,nor Rose or Noah.could be Pau,but i doubt it as that would have shown up in LA.

I absolutely disagree with you. We were fine with Butler ascending to stardom, then Rose came back and Pau joined the team. Both those guys play only one side of the ball and don't like it if they don't have enough touches. Look no further than the last extremely stupid drive of Rose at the end of the game that got stuffed.

Look I can see why someone thinks it is Butler, because he doesn't lead the right way. MJ took a lot of time as well to learn how to lead the right way. Rose can't lead the team, but as long as he is here, there won't be a place for Jimmy's leadership. And I thought I read that the younger guys would follow Butler rather than Rose. I can see that, and I can see how that handicaps the team even further.

There needs to be a change and IMO Rose should be the one traded. We already know that he can't lead the team to the price. Jimmy didn't have the chance to grow into that role and I would like to try that before trading him.

[DRoseCantStop]

Celtics poster claims this was more than imagination at the deadline, but no idea of his credentials. Knowing what we know about how the Bulls operate and Jimmy's reported friction with the team, it wouldn't shock me.

our team issues came at the very sametime of JBs ascension.wasn't Tom,doesn't seem it's fred,nor Rose or Noah.could be Pau,but i doubt it as that would have shown up in LA.

There needs to be a change and IMO Rose should be the one traded. We already know that he can't lead the team to the price. Jimmy didn't have the chance to grow into that role and I would like to try that before trading him.

Don't think Butler's capable of growing into that role.

[Talclipse]

Celtics poster claims this was more than imagination at the deadline, but no idea of his credentials. Knowing what we know about how the Bulls operate and Jimmy's reported friction with the team, it wouldn't shock me.

our team issues came at the very sametime of JBs ascension.wasn't Tom,doesn't seem it's fred,nor Rose or Noah.could be Pau,but i doubt it as that would have shown up in LA.

I absolutely disagree with you. We were fine with Butler ascending to stardom, then Rose came back and Pau joined the team. Both those guys play only one side of the ball and don't like it if they don't have enough touches. Look no further than the last extremely stupid drive of Rose at the end of the game that got stuffed.

Look I can see why someone thinks it is Butler, because he doesn't lead the right way. MJ took a lot of time as well to learn how to lead the right way. Rose can't lead the team, but as long as he is here, there won't be a place for Jimmy's leadership. And I thought I read that the younger guys would follow Butler rather than Rose. I can see that, and I can see how that handicaps the team even further.

There needs to be a change and IMO Rose should be the one traded. We already know that he can't lead the team to the price. Jimmy didn't have the chance to grow into that role and I would like to try that before trading him.

i dont think its Rose for a second.did you forget he was the mvp??my bet would be on Jimmy getting a big head and running his mouth behind the FO and Coachs backs.

not saying he is a bad guy at all,but to me he is the prime target and those rumors that came out at the deadline kinda lead ya in that direction cause why else would the FO even think of getting rid of the guy? because he made a bad comment about the coach in the press?? nah.

[TheGOATRises007]

Butler has been really poor since that knee injury. He should honestly sit the season out.

[Talclipse]

btw I'd drive JB to Boston myself if the team got 4 1sts and AB for him.

[TimRobbins]

I think the two Brooklyn picks and AB would do it.