OT: COVID-19 thread #2

[MrSparkle]

At the same time, it's comical hearing liberals and libertarians talk about "just de-funding" the military complex, when there's a whole lot more involved in that **** show (frankly America is "in too deep" to do a radical make-over and trade the bombs for hearts, especially with the distant aggressors racing forward).

Can't think of anything less funny than the fact that the US spends more on the military than all the other nations in the world put together, yet we can't afford to take care of our own people when it comes to health care.

Well I’m a liberal. I didn’t mean to say they couldn’t afford to provide health care to every American. They could. It’s like the rich man who gets out of king size bed in 1 of his 5 mansions and complains he’s losing money and becoming poor when his employees get a $1 raise. It translates to every level. Middle class Americans with houses and 3 cars complaining about being broke and “tight” on budget (cough, my suburban relatives). Then you go visit family in another country and they live like sardines with extended family in a cramped apartment, and they don’t complain about being broke.

It’s a mental illness and perspective. My point is the US gov can afford pretty much whatever it wants. It’s a bizarre facade. But they know that health care industry is a huge employer leverage. If everyone has health care, that’s a huge power given to the worker. You really don’t have to fear being an independent contractor or freelance worker going to old age. That’s why most people give into corporate life, for that health and retirement security. Has little to do with being able to afford it. The military budget proves the debt can be relatively infinite.

However I also think they’ve created a dangerous situation with the military complex. You can’t just all of a sudden dump the missiles, planes and defense industry corporations. In my dream world I would, but the complex has become “too big to fail”, with almost the entire world hating the US military/government behind the diplomatic veil for their 70 years of paranoid aggression and political mingling. And all that loan leverage is based on asp being able to secure the most powerful weapons and strategic air/space/water holds in the world.

But my point was strictly about debt. The conservative whining about the deficit. Yes it’s fiscally responsible to not run up an insane debt, but big business and rich governments can and will, so it makes no sense that the GOP always clamors about the big debt. When it pops, it hits hits low-income citizens in IMF countries, and it really decimates and causes starvation and infrastructural collapse in Africa, South and Central America, southeast Asia, all these ‘satellite’ pawn countries of US, UK, EU. They are affected more by America’s irresponsible debt than America.

I think the debt/cost argument has next to nothing to do with actual cost of health care; strictly ideology. Yes it’d be expensive, yes it would raise taxes, but it’d be no different than any other bill in the bloated US budget. They de-prioritize health, environment, science for personal selfish reasons and blame it on the deficit.

Anyway, my brain hurts thinking about it. I just hope that single payer health care is a reality next year.

[dougthonus]

Was looking over coronavirus numbers, and one thing I thought was curious, is the number of cases with resolution is like 75% recovered and 25% death. My assumption is that's because the number of cases with resolution is actually radically higher than reported because for people whom go home and self quarantine the resolution is never reported, so this is the number of people that are ICU?

Is that correct?

[Dresden]

Yeah...the small government and multiple operators/interests have been responsible for screwing up our healthcare system. If we have shortage of doctors, then encourage kids to become one. It is ridiculous how difficult it is to get into medical school.
That way, you don't have long waiting times. You can have tiers of doctors based on their ability.

It’s simple economics. The American Medical Association controls the process to become a doctor (supply). It is in their economic interest to make it harder and harder to become a doctor because it makes them more valuable. You see this a lot in industries that require a certification (think CPAs, lawyers)

This is also why you have the AMA lobbying against giving Nurse Practitioners more responsibilities https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-statements/ama-statement-va-proposed-rule-advanced-practice-nurses. It is a risk to their business model. It’s not about safety or cost, it’s about economics and power.

The other part of the economics of the medical profession is that, from my understanding, what they really lack are primary care physicians, especially in rural areas. This is the least lucrative avenue to pursue. I know some states offer incentives for people willing to go into these kinds of practices, but it's not enough. There are loads of dermatologists in NYC and LA, but not many medical students want to go treat colds and flu's and pregnancies in rural Mississippi.

[dougthonus]

Also, haven't been in the thread for a few days, so I'm not going to go retroactively clean it up, but another warning:

Do not make posts discussing other users (especially all the stuff insulting people over their political beliefs).
Do not make posts bashing a political party (unless it is very explicitly about their reaction to something for coronavirus)

This is not a political thread. Go to the current affairs forum.

If you are discussing politics, those politics must be extremely directed at the response to coronavirus, not towards other topics (such as size of the military, the national debt, or whatever other hot topic is loosely related to your point).

[League Circles]

At the same time, it's comical hearing liberals and libertarians talk about "just de-funding" the military complex, when there's a whole lot more involved in that **** show (frankly America is "in too deep" to do a radical make-over and trade the bombs for hearts, especially with the distant aggressors racing forward).

Can't think of anything less funny than the fact that the US spends more on the military than all the other nations in the world put together, yet we can't afford to take care of our own people when it comes to health care.

Well I’m a liberal. I didn’t mean to say they couldn’t afford to provide health care to every American. They could. It’s like the rich man who gets out of king size bed in 1 of his 5 mansions and complains he’s losing money and becoming poor when his employees get a $1 raise. It translates to every level. Middle class Americans with houses and 3 cars complaining about being broke and “tight” on budget (cough, my suburban relatives). Then you go visit family in another country and they live like sardines with extended family in a cramped apartment, and they don’t complain about being broke.

It’s a mental illness and perspective. My point is the US gov can afford pretty much whatever it wants. It’s a bizarre facade. But they know that health care industry is a huge employer leverage. If everyone has health care, that’s a huge power given to the worker. You really don’t have to fear being an independent contractor or freelance worker going to old age. That’s why most people give into corporate life, for that health and retirement security. Has little to do with being able to afford it. The military budget proves the debt can be relatively infinite.

However I also think they’ve created a dangerous situation with the military complex. You can’t just all of a sudden dump the missiles, planes and defense industry corporations. In my dream world I would, but the complex has become “too big to fail”, with almost the entire world hating the US military/government behind the diplomatic veil for their 70 years of paranoid aggression and political mingling. And all that loan leverage is based on asp being able to secure the most powerful weapons and strategic air/space/water holds in the world.

But my point was strictly about debt. The conservative whining about the deficit. Yes it’s fiscally responsible to not run up an insane debt, but big business and rich governments can and will, so it makes no sense that the GOP always clamors about the big debt. When it pops, it hits hits low-income citizens in IMF countries, and it really decimates and causes starvation and infrastructural collapse in Africa, South and Central America, southeast Asia, all these ‘satellite’ pawn countries of US, UK, EU. They are affected more by America’s irresponsible debt than America.

I think the debt/cost argument has next to nothing to do with actual cost of health care; strictly ideology. Yes it’d be expensive, yes it would raise taxes, but it’d be no different than any other bill in the bloated US budget. They de-prioritize health, environment, science for personal selfish reasons and blame it on the deficit.

Anyway, my brain hurts thinking about it. I just hope that single payer health care is a reality next year.

I'm always confused when people talk about America as being so rich. If we can afford anything we want, why do we borrow approx 1/3 of our budget? Why do most of us have no wealth?

Americans have a nice standard of living mostly because we're counting on our kids producing what we weren't able or willing to produce, and hoping that that happens before the dollar loses it's status.

[Dresden]

Was looking over coronavirus numbers, and one thing I thought was curious, is the number of cases with resolution is like 75% recovered and 25% death. My assumption is that's because the number of cases with resolution is actually radically higher than reported because for people whom go home and self quarantine the resolution is never reported, so this is the number of people that are ICU?

Is that correct?

Yes, that's right. They think the fatality rate is still in the range of 1-2.5%. I don't know the statistics exactly, but something like 80% of cases do not require hospitalization, so these people are recovering at home, without ever having been tested or confirmed.

[Dresden]

Listening to what the medical experts are saying- that we can't re=open until we are able to test, trace and isolate, I just don't see any way we'll be at that point in early May. It looks more like June before that might happen. And if we open it back up too soon, all the places that have avoided getting hit hard so far, like CA, will have very little herd immunity, and could get devastated. It's hilarious that Trump is saying "it's up to me", and "it's the biggest decision I've ever had to make in my life", when he never had the courage to order a national stay at home order in the first place. He likes everything to be about him.

[Chi town]

Listening to what the medical experts are saying- that we can't re=open until we are able to test, trace and isolate, I just don't see any way we'll be at that point in early May. It looks more like June before that might happen. And if we open it back up too soon, all the places that have avoided getting hit hard so far, like CA, will have very little herd immunity, and could get devastated. It's hilarious that Trump is saying "it's up to me", and "it's the biggest decision I've ever had to make in my life", when he never had the courage to order a national stay at home order in the first place. He likes everything to be about him.

1. I see no way we will be able to scale test, trace and isolate until probably July. Which means no NBA and probably very delayed baseball.

2. We are ok in Bay Area because we know Newsom and Breed will keep us locked down.

3. Singapore, China, and South Korea have lifted restrictions and then added the restrictions back on. Trump will be dumb and probably do the same thing. Or he could just leave it up to state governments like he has thus far. You know the one thing motivating him is reelection and thereby the economy.

4. I don't see how companies will be able to "force" employees to come in and work if they can work from home and there is still no testing etc. Service industry employees will probably still be screwed because I dont' the general public running back to restaurants and public gatherings... def not here in SF.

[Dresden]

Listening to what the medical experts are saying- that we can't re=open until we are able to test, trace and isolate, I just don't see any way we'll be at that point in early May. It looks more like June before that might happen. And if we open it back up too soon, all the places that have avoided getting hit hard so far, like CA, will have very little herd immunity, and could get devastated. It's hilarious that Trump is saying "it's up to me", and "it's the biggest decision I've ever had to make in my life", when he never had the courage to order a national stay at home order in the first place. He likes everything to be about him.

1. I see no way we will be able to scale test, trace and isolate until probably July. Which means no NBA and probably very delayed baseball.

2. We are ok in Bay Area because we know Newsom and Breed will keep us locked down.

3. Singapore, China, and South Korea have lifted restrictions and then added the restrictions back on. Trump will be dumb and probably do the same thing. Or he could just leave it up to state governments like he has thus far. You know the one thing motivating him is reelection and thereby the economy.

4. I don't see how companies will be able to "force" employees to come in and work if they can work from home and there is still no testing etc. Service industry employees will probably still be screwed because I dont' the general public running back to restaurants and public gatherings... def not here in SF.

I agree that we need to stay locked down as long as is necessary, but I also wonder how people will survive economically if the shutdown lasts that long. Even if the Payroll Protection Program delivers what it is promising (two to two and a half months of pay to workers in companies with fewer than 500 employees), it's still going to come up short if the shutdown lasts 4 months.

I'm in construction, and I have a feeling that we will be one of the first industries to be allowed back to work- mainly because the work is there and ready to go. And I think it could be done safely, if the 6' distancing, etc. protocols are put in place.

[MrSparkle]

Can't think of anything less funny than the fact that the US spends more on the military than all the other nations in the world put together, yet we can't afford to take care of our own people when it comes to health care.

Well I’m a liberal. I didn’t mean to say they couldn’t afford to provide health care to every American. They could. It’s like the rich man who gets out of king size bed in 1 of his 5 mansions and complains he’s losing money and becoming poor when his employees get a $1 raise. It translates to every level. Middle class Americans with houses and 3 cars complaining about being broke and “tight” on budget (cough, my suburban relatives). Then you go visit family in another country and they live like sardines with extended family in a cramped apartment, and they don’t complain about being broke.

It’s a mental illness and perspective. My point is the US gov can afford pretty much whatever it wants. It’s a bizarre facade. But they know that health care industry is a huge employer leverage. If everyone has health care, that’s a huge power given to the worker. You really don’t have to fear being an independent contractor or freelance worker going to old age. That’s why most people give into corporate life, for that health and retirement security. Has little to do with being able to afford it. The military budget proves the debt can be relatively infinite.

However I also think they’ve created a dangerous situation with the military complex. You can’t just all of a sudden dump the missiles, planes and defense industry corporations. In my dream world I would, but the complex has become “too big to fail”, with almost the entire world hating the US military/government behind the diplomatic veil for their 70 years of paranoid aggression and political mingling. And all that loan leverage is based on asp being able to secure the most powerful weapons and strategic air/space/water holds in the world.

But my point was strictly about debt. The conservative whining about the deficit. Yes it’s fiscally responsible to not run up an insane debt, but big business and rich governments can and will, so it makes no sense that the GOP always clamors about the big debt. When it pops, it hits hits low-income citizens in IMF countries, and it really decimates and causes starvation and infrastructural collapse in Africa, South and Central America, southeast Asia, all these ‘satellite’ pawn countries of US, UK, EU. They are affected more by America’s irresponsible debt than America.

I think the debt/cost argument has next to nothing to do with actual cost of health care; strictly ideology. Yes it’d be expensive, yes it would raise taxes, but it’d be no different than any other bill in the bloated US budget. They de-prioritize health, environment, science for personal selfish reasons and blame it on the deficit.

Anyway, my brain hurts thinking about it. I just hope that single payer health care is a reality next year.

I'm always confused when people talk about America as being so rich. If we can afford anything we want, why do we borrow approx 1/3 of our budget? Why do most of us have no wealth?

Americans have a nice standard of living mostly because we're counting on our kids producing what we weren't able or willing to produce, and hoping that that happens before the dollar loses it's status.

Well, America (and the rest of the IMF world) runs on loans/debt. How many people buy cars or houses with cash? That's why Americans have a nice standard of living. Cause you can have everything at once with credit and pay it off in small manageable increments (until the bubble bursts). The richer you are, the lower the interest for giant money-making loans/investments that poorer people can't get or afford to budget around. Now translate that to the US credit status. There is no country that can "afford" to take on as large a debt, so in many ways, there should be no "impossible" cost for the US (when it comes to public service), yet there ideologically is this very low ceiling to how much the government can cover a citizen's safety net.

If the dollar loses its status, then so do other countries. Russia, China can't offer a stability with their currency and military protection that America can. Germany and Japan are in many ways still satellite economies dependent on the US (since WW2). I'm not saying it's not possible, but it'd be an incredible sequence of mis-managed events if the American dollar crumbled and the Yuan, Ruble or Euro took over as the lead currency. It'd basically be like putting the 5 best NBA players of all-time (let's say Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron and Shaq) and watching them lose to the Chinese national team. That's the economic/military advantage that America has on all the "runners up." Yes there's always a risk of losing, but it would have to be a complete and utter disaster of fiscal and diplomatic management. I imagine if something wacky like a crypto currency became the standard, the entire world order would collapse... if a solid like gold became the standard, then we would just go back to a more 19th century grab, where again, the strongest militaries in the world (US by a landslide) would control the most wealth and "trickle down" as they please.

[kurtatx]

Was looking over coronavirus numbers, and one thing I thought was curious, is the number of cases with resolution is like 75% recovered and 25% death. My assumption is that's because the number of cases with resolution is actually radically higher than reported because for people whom go home and self quarantine the resolution is never reported, so this is the number of people that are ICU?

Is that correct?

Yes, that's right. They think the fatality rate is still in the range of 1-2.5%. I don't know the statistics exactly, but something like 80% of cases do not require hospitalization, so these people are recovering at home, without ever having been tested or confirmed.

Right. Could be somewhere below 1% even, but we just can't know at this point.

And recoveries take longer than deaths, so a recovery is a trailing statistic.

[Chi town]

Listening to what the medical experts are saying- that we can't re=open until we are able to test, trace and isolate, I just don't see any way we'll be at that point in early May. It looks more like June before that might happen. And if we open it back up too soon, all the places that have avoided getting hit hard so far, like CA, will have very little herd immunity, and could get devastated. It's hilarious that Trump is saying "it's up to me", and "it's the biggest decision I've ever had to make in my life", when he never had the courage to order a national stay at home order in the first place. He likes everything to be about him.

1. I see no way we will be able to scale test, trace and isolate until probably July. Which means no NBA and probably very delayed baseball.

2. We are ok in Bay Area because we know Newsom and Breed will keep us locked down.

3. Singapore, China, and South Korea have lifted restrictions and then added the restrictions back on. Trump will be dumb and probably do the same thing. Or he could just leave it up to state governments like he has thus far. You know the one thing motivating him is reelection and thereby the economy.

4. I don't see how companies will be able to "force" employees to come in and work if they can work from home and there is still no testing etc. Service industry employees will probably still be screwed because I dont' the general public running back to restaurants and public gatherings... def not here in SF.

I agree that we need to stay locked down as long as is necessary, but I also wonder how people will survive economically if the shutdown lasts that long. Even if the Payroll Protection Program delivers what it is promising (two to two and a half months of pay to workers in companies with fewer than 500 employees), it's still going to come up short if the shutdown lasts 4 months.

I'm in construction, and I have a feeling that we will be one of the first industries to be allowed back to work- mainly because the work is there and ready to go. And I think it could be done safely, if the 6' distancing, etc. protocols are put in place.

Exactly. IMO there are people like construction workers that should be working right now with proper measures. There are quite a few people that could be working w the right measures and we could do it safely.

It will be a tiered approach to get everything back up and running.

[Dresden]

We had been working prior to the latest extension about 2 weeks ago, where construction work was explicitly banned unless it was safety purposes. And we had worked things out to make it pretty safe- fewer crews were allowed on site at one time, 6' distancing, washing hands frequently, disinfecting commonly touched surfaces throughout the day, not sharing tools, bringing lunches/snacks/coffee from home so you don't have to go out, etc. Supplies were either delivered to the site, or picked up at the curb, so no one had to go inside a crowded store.

Under these conditions, I'd say work could be done pretty safely. There's still some risk involved, for sure. It's not as good as staying home. But at some point, we're going to have to risk it, unless a vaccine is developed (a year from now), or we are able to do widespread testing.

[Dresden]

California, Washington, Oregon to announce reopening plan

California Gov. Gavin Newsom, Oregon Gov. Kate Brown and Washington Gov. Jay Inslee issued a joint statement Monday that the three states would work together to reopen the West Coast of the United States.

"COVID-19 has preyed upon our interconnectedness," said the three Democratic governors. "In the coming weeks, the West Coast will flip the script on COVID-19 – with our states acting in close coordination and collaboration to ensure the virus can never spread wildly in our communities.

"We are announcing that California, Oregon and Washington have agreed to work together on a shared approach for reopening our economies – one that identifies clear indicators for communities to restart public life and business."

Included in the principles of the framework were "Our residents' health comes first" and "Health outcomes and science — not politics — will guide these decisions." The governors of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Delaware announced a similar plan to coordinate earlier Monday.

[Dresden]

Trump has put out a tweet claiming that it is only the federal govt. that will announce when the country can open up again. Of course, he wants to be able to take credit for it, when it happens. Even though he wasn't willing to take the political flak for announcing a national shut down. But he wants to be the one to give out the good news. So typical of his leadership.

Meanwhile, Andrew Cuomo is on right now saying that no matter who gives the go ahead, we need a plan for how this all is going to work. There has to be coordination, there has to be a testing plan, there have to be comprehensive guidelines. Will Trump or his team come up with this? Quite unlikely, given how slow and disorganized they've been to this point. I have much more confidence in our governor, Gavin Newsome, coming up with a plan that is going to be good for California than I am Trump and his band of boobs will.

[Payt10]

California, Washington, Oregon to announce reopening plan

California Gov. Gavin Newsom, Oregon Gov. Kate Brown and Washington Gov. Jay Inslee issued a joint statement Monday that the three states would work together to reopen the West Coast of the United States.

"COVID-19 has preyed upon our interconnectedness," said the three Democratic governors. "In the coming weeks, the West Coast will flip the script on COVID-19 – with our states acting in close coordination and collaboration to ensure the virus can never spread wildly in our communities.

"We are announcing that California, Oregon and Washington have agreed to work together on a shared approach for reopening our economies – one that identifies clear indicators for communities to restart public life and business."

Included in the principles of the framework were "Our residents' health comes first" and "Health outcomes and science — not politics — will guide these decisions." The governors of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Delaware announced a similar plan to coordinate earlier Monday.

People under 60 with no underlying health conditions should be allowed to go back to work if working from home is not possible. Same with people who have the antibodies.

Once antibody testing becomes widely available, we will know the actual mortality rate, as well as having a better understanding of how close we are to herd immunity. That will have a huge effect on the plan moving forward as it relates to opening up the economy. Right now, we are acting on a lack of information.

[dougthonus]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29030877/mother-timberwolves-star-karl-anthony-towns-dies-due-complications-coronavirus

KAT's mom didn't make it. RIP.

[dice]

No I don't.

there's your problem

You gonna be mad when he wins again?

nope. but i'll feel bad for the human race, including many of his supporters who continually shoot themselves in the foot either to spite others or in a desperate hail mary attempt to shake up the system and improve their own lot in life. the former group loves a good troll ("u mad?", "own the libs!"). and it's the latter group that carnival barkers appeal to. trump checks both boxes

it's a sad day when in the year 2020 a huge chunk of americans still haven't gotten over losing the civil war...and losing the battle to keep women subjugated...and losing countless civil rights battles...and losing the battle to keep gays in the closet...etc. ad nauseum. and then a black guy gets elected PRESIDENT? hoo boy. that's when the long dormant underbelly of the nation springs into action. they think they're getting their revenge by electing a "white nationalist" with a woman problem, but they don't realize that he's just using them to further his own economic agenda. in most cases, at the expense of theirs. i mean, this is a guy who attended chelsea clinton's wedding for god's sake. a compulsive liar in the name of self-interest. but as long as he's their ally in the culture war, it's aaaaaall good

Haha. I couldn't imagine living day to day with those thoughts. It must really terrify you to see Biden as the libs nominee. Yikes.

has nothign to do with corona virus, i asked the pure politics stuff stop - doug

[dice]

Trump has put out a tweet claiming that it is only the federal govt. that will announce when the country can open up again. Of course, he wants to be able to take credit for it, when it happens. Even though he wasn't willing to take the political flak for announcing a national shut down. But he wants to be the one to give out the good news. So typical of his leadership.

how does one re-open something that he refused to shut down? he irresponsibly left the decision to the individual states to do what they wanted on their own timetable. now he has to live with that decision on the back end as well

[dougthonus]

https://www.espn.com/wwe/story/_/id/29031903/wwe-deemed-essential-business-florida-mayor-says

Thought this was pretty crazy. Clearly some money seriously changed hands here, because there's no remote way to consider WWE essential by the books. That said, I don't actually think it's a bad idea if you do it safely and don't perform in front of crowds. I think you could easily film WWE in a safe way and provide some entertainment.

Just if you look at it from that perspective, there are probably a lot of other businesses you could open with safety precautions (which is likely what will happen in May).