Assembling Core 2.0

[StunnerKO]

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[MGB8]

I'm starting to consider the possibility that LaVine, Coby and Pat Williams could all be serious parts of a high level "core." But you would need two things in relation to having those 3 guys as part of your primary lineup:

(1) most importantly - a "point wing" or "point combo-forward"; and
(2) a strong defensive center (rim protection, rebounding, not too much of an offensive liability).

I'm not so worried about item #2. It's Item #1 that's interesting to me - particularly if Coby can excel as an off-ball scorer and secondary/tertiary ball-handler (and improve his defense) - a la Ben Gordon. In the short run, a Sato or Val can sort of play the "point wing" role, but not well enough to have the team be a real contender.

In the draft though, Cade Cunningham , Scottie Barnes (noting the shooting issues), Jalen Johnson (also some shooting questions) and maybe Josh Giddy could fit the bill. Maybe Kuminga, too.

In FA, one guy who is a bit older but might be worth a look is Demarr DeRozan. For the 3 past seasons he's averaged over 5 assists per game, and this season he's up to 6.7 (in 34 minutes). His weakness from 3 is a problem but this season he's at a poor but passable 33% on 2 attempts per game. THT *might* actually fit the bill, too, although that's more projection on some flashes of vision and handle than anything that's been really established (even to the extent that the above-mentioned draft options).

But *if* Coby can be a plus player as a non-point scorer (a big, big "if"), with Pat looking like an excellent "glue" combo-forward... the Bulls may be a lot close to a highly competitive core than I thought earlier in the season.

[BigJimFinn]

I'm starting to consider the possibility that LaVine, Coby and Pat Williams could all be serious parts of a high level "core." But you would need two things in relation to having those 3 guys as part of your primary lineup:

(1) most importantly - a "point wing" or "point combo-forward"; and
(2) a strong defensive center (rim protection, rebounding, not too much of an offensive liability).

I'm not so worried about item #2. It's Item #1 that's interesting to me - particularly if Coby can excel as an off-ball scorer and secondary/tertiary ball-handler (and improve his defense) - a la Ben Gordon. In the short run, a Sato or Val can sort of play the "point wing" role, but not well enough to have the team be a real contender.

In the draft though, Cade Cunningham , Scottie Barnes (noting the shooting issues), Jalen Johnson (also some shooting questions) and maybe Josh Giddy could fit the bill. Maybe Kuminga, too.

In FA, one guy who is a bit older but might be worth a look is Demarr DeRozan. For the 3 past seasons he's averaged over 5 assists per game, and this season he's up to 6.7 (in 34 minutes). His weakness from 3 is a problem but this season he's at a poor but passable 33% on 2 attempts per game. THT *might* actually fit the bill, too, although that's more projection on some flashes of vision and handle than anything that's been really established (even to the extent that the above-mentioned draft options).

But *if* Coby can be a plus player as a non-point scorer (a big, big "if"), with Pat looking like an excellent "glue" combo-forward... the Bulls may be a lot close to a highly competitive core than I thought earlier in the season.

I agree with your concept, but DeRozan is not the "point wing" you need. He has become a decent playmaker when playing with 4 spacers, so your 5 would need to be a decent shooter too. More importantly, he is awful defender. I don't think you can build a winning lineup with 3 below average perimeter defenders.

[TheSuzerain]

I just don't understand why Coby gets lumped in with Lavine/PWill as a top asset.

He's very plainly not that. Goal should be to build the best team we can. Not to jump through hoops so that Coby can stay a starter.

[MrSparkle]

I just don't understand why Coby gets lumped in with Lavine/PWill as a top asset.

He's very plainly not that. Goal should be to build the best team we can. Not to jump through hoops so that Coby can stay a starter.

He's far from untouchable, but he's also got worst stats and trade value than he's actually worth to a team. He's able to have 25+ pt. outbursts. Pretty impressive for a low-ceiling sophomore. To me it's just a case of "ignore the negatives" and focus on the positive: besides Zach, nobody on this squad comes close to his scoring potential besides Lauri, but as I've said many times: Lauri is a defensive/paint nightmare, bad fit, injury prone, and slows the game down. Coby actually speeds it up.

Maybe he never learns how to be a good PG, though I think this season demonstrates the idea of "PG" is pure semantics. If Coby was that bad, and the PG position was that important, then we'd be the worst team in the league. If PG was that important, then the brilliant-passing/team-players Rubio and Lonzo could run their teams to more wins.

But we're not that bad - we're in the low/mid tier, able to beat bad or OK teams and lose respectfully to better teams... despite missing almost all front-court depth.

Besides the loss of 15+ PPG and roster depth (playing a shorter rotation obviously makes the game harder), I don't see how anyone can argue Lauri made us much better. Through good and bad, Coby has been a double-digit scorer in almost every game, and he opens the floor up. Only about 3 games come to mind where he was absolutely atrocious and unable to hit anything.

I agree that Sato (if not Valentine too) visually runs a better offense, but personally I feel those guys need shooters and secondary handlers like Coby and Zach to be competent. Coby opens up the floor without the ball, and getting extended burn at point was important for his development, even if it didn't pan out how we wanted. Maybe he's more of FVV? That's OK - I'll take that guy any day as a build block.

[TheSuzerain]

I just don't understand why Coby gets lumped in with Lavine/PWill as a top asset.

He's very plainly not that. Goal should be to build the best team we can. Not to jump through hoops so that Coby can stay a starter.

He's far from untouchable, but he's also got worst stats and trade value than he's actually worth to a team. He's able to have 25+ pt. outbursts. Pretty impressive for a low-ceiling sophomore. To me it's just a case of "ignore the negatives" and focus on the positive: besides Zach, nobody on this squad comes close to his scoring potential besides Lauri, but as I've said many times: Lauri is a defensive/paint nightmare, bad fit, injury prone, and slows the game down. Coby actually speeds it up.

Maybe he never learns how to be a good PG, though I think this season demonstrates the idea of "PG" is pure semantics. If Coby was that bad, and the PG position was that important, then we'd be the worst team in the league. If PG was that important, then the brilliant-passing/team-players Rubio and Lonzo could run their teams to more wins.

But we're not that bad - we're in the low/mid tier, able to beat bad or OK teams and lose respectfully to better teams... despite missing almost all front-court depth.

Besides the loss of 15+ PPG and roster depth (playing a shorter rotation obviously makes the game harder), I don't see how anyone can argue Lauri made us much better. Through good and bad, Coby has been a double-digit scorer in almost every game, and he opens the floor up. Only about 3 games come to mind where he was absolutely atrocious and unable to hit anything.

I agree that Sato (if not Valentine too) visually runs a better offense, but personally I feel those guys need shooters and secondary handlers like Coby and Zach to be competent. Coby opens up the floor without the ball, and getting extended burn at point was important for his development, even if it didn't pan out how we wanted. Maybe he's more of FVV? That's OK - I'll take that guy any day as a build block.

You seemingly fail to realize the importance of efficiency. We get a finite amount of possessions each game.

Scoring 10+ points per game means nothing when it you have to use up 10+ possessions per game to get it.

The league average TS% is 56.9 (!). Coby's TS% is 52.6%. Markkanen's TS% is 64% right now. And this is Coby's supposed strength (scoring).

[MrSparkle]

I just don't understand why Coby gets lumped in with Lavine/PWill as a top asset.

He's very plainly not that. Goal should be to build the best team we can. Not to jump through hoops so that Coby can stay a starter.

He's far from untouchable, but he's also got worst stats and trade value than he's actually worth to a team. He's able to have 25+ pt. outbursts. Pretty impressive for a low-ceiling sophomore. To me it's just a case of "ignore the negatives" and focus on the positive: besides Zach, nobody on this squad comes close to his scoring potential besides Lauri, but as I've said many times: Lauri is a defensive/paint nightmare, bad fit, injury prone, and slows the game down. Coby actually speeds it up.

Maybe he never learns how to be a good PG, though I think this season demonstrates the idea of "PG" is pure semantics. If Coby was that bad, and the PG position was that important, then we'd be the worst team in the league. If PG was that important, then the brilliant-passing/team-players Rubio and Lonzo could run their teams to more wins.

But we're not that bad - we're in the low/mid tier, able to beat bad or OK teams and lose respectfully to better teams... despite missing almost all front-court depth.

Besides the loss of 15+ PPG and roster depth (playing a shorter rotation obviously makes the game harder), I don't see how anyone can argue Lauri made us much better. Through good and bad, Coby has been a double-digit scorer in almost every game, and he opens the floor up. Only about 3 games come to mind where he was absolutely atrocious and unable to hit anything.

I agree that Sato (if not Valentine too) visually runs a better offense, but personally I feel those guys need shooters and secondary handlers like Coby and Zach to be competent. Coby opens up the floor without the ball, and getting extended burn at point was important for his development, even if it didn't pan out how we wanted. Maybe he's more of FVV? That's OK - I'll take that guy any day as a build block.

You seemingly fail to realize the importance of efficiency. We get a finite amount of possessions each game.

Scoring 10+ points per game means nothing when it you have to use up 10+ possessions per game to get it.

The league average TS% is 56.9 (!). Coby's TS% is 52.6%. Markkanen's TS% is 64% right now. And this is Coby's supposed strength (scoring).

Yeah, but Coby has been a primary/secondary ball-handler in high usage and high minutes. I find the fact that he's "survived" and produced more impressive and valuable than Lauri's wide-open looks. Lauri has failed the challenge time and time again of being a go-to ball-handler and scorer. He is clearly best playing his mis-matches and mostly being found for open looks.

[DroseReturnChi]

He's able to have 25+ pt. outbursts. Pretty impressive for a low-ceiling sophomore. To me it's just a case of "ignore the negatives" and focus on the positive: besides Zach, nobody on this squad comes close to his scoring potential besides Lauri, but as I've said many times: Lauri is a defensive/paint nightmare, bad fit, injury prone, and slows the game down. Coby actually speeds it up.

Advanced stats suggest White is the defensive nightmare, not Lauri. speed things up, 25 bursts are just random narratives to forcefully include him into the next core. Look im fine with not including Lauri as the new core but if thats the case, White has to leave too with the same logic. Worse defender, shooter, and lower ceiling.

[Dez]

He's able to have 25+ pt. outbursts. Pretty impressive for a low-ceiling sophomore. To me it's just a case of "ignore the negatives" and focus on the positive: besides Zach, nobody on this squad comes close to his scoring potential besides Lauri, but as I've said many times: Lauri is a defensive/paint nightmare, bad fit, injury prone, and slows the game down. Coby actually speeds it up.

Advanced stats suggest White is the defensive nightmare, not Lauri. speed things up, 25 bursts are just random narratives to forcefully include him into the next core. Look im fine with not including Lauri as the new core but if thats the case, White has to leave too with the same logic. Worse defender, shooter, and lower ceiling.

White is in his 2nd season, players take time to develop and he's on a cost controlled contract for years to come. So no, he doesn't "have to leave with that logic" given that he and Lauri are in completely different situations and stages of their respective careers.

[gobullschi]

He's far from untouchable, but he's also got worst stats and trade value than he's actually worth to a team. He's able to have 25+ pt. outbursts. Pretty impressive for a low-ceiling sophomore. To me it's just a case of "ignore the negatives" and focus on the positive: besides Zach, nobody on this squad comes close to his scoring potential besides Lauri, but as I've said many times: Lauri is a defensive/paint nightmare, bad fit, injury prone, and slows the game down. Coby actually speeds it up.

Maybe he never learns how to be a good PG, though I think this season demonstrates the idea of "PG" is pure semantics. If Coby was that bad, and the PG position was that important, then we'd be the worst team in the league. If PG was that important, then the brilliant-passing/team-players Rubio and Lonzo could run their teams to more wins.

But we're not that bad - we're in the low/mid tier, able to beat bad or OK teams and lose respectfully to better teams... despite missing almost all front-court depth.

Besides the loss of 15+ PPG and roster depth (playing a shorter rotation obviously makes the game harder), I don't see how anyone can argue Lauri made us much better. Through good and bad, Coby has been a double-digit scorer in almost every game, and he opens the floor up. Only about 3 games come to mind where he was absolutely atrocious and unable to hit anything.

I agree that Sato (if not Valentine too) visually runs a better offense, but personally I feel those guys need shooters and secondary handlers like Coby and Zach to be competent. Coby opens up the floor without the ball, and getting extended burn at point was important for his development, even if it didn't pan out how we wanted. Maybe he's more of FVV? That's OK - I'll take that guy any day as a build block.

You seemingly fail to realize the importance of efficiency. We get a finite amount of possessions each game.

Scoring 10+ points per game means nothing when it you have to use up 10+ possessions per game to get it.

The league average TS% is 56.9 (!). Coby's TS% is 52.6%. Markkanen's TS% is 64% right now. And this is Coby's supposed strength (scoring).

Yeah, but Coby has been a primary/secondary ball-handler in high usage and high minutes. I find the fact that he's "survived" and produced more impressive and valuable than Lauri's wide-open looks. Lauri has failed the challenge time and time again of being a go-to ball-handler and scorer. He is clearly best playing his mis-matches and mostly being found for open looks.

Can that be a #3? It’s not like there are a ton of power forwards that excel at being a go-to- ball-handler.

[Chi town]

So what FA do we add to the core?

THT?
Lonzo?
Gary Trent Jr?

Don’t see any of those guys signing for less than 18M

[gobullschi]

So what FA do we add to the core?

THT?
Lonzo?
Gary Trent Jr?

Don’t see any of those guys signing for less than 18M

Oladipo
Lonzo
Drummond
Conley
Collins

[nomorezorro]

only name of interest to me on that list is collins. at this point i'd be comfortable maxing him and seeing if atlanta would match

[ZOMG]

only name of interest to me on that list is collins. at this point i'd be comfortable maxing him and seeing if atlanta would match

But why?

[nomorezorro]

he's really, really good on offense and could plausibly fit into a good team defense

atlanta's an above-average defensive team right now. a lot of that is probably due to capella, but hawks fans say collins has made strides on that end too. it'd certainly be easier to find a solid defensive center than it would a legit second option scorer

[Andi Obst]

So what FA do we add to the core?

THT?
Lonzo?
Gary Trent Jr?

Don’t see any of those guys signing for less than 18M

Not the biggest Lonzo fan, but I think THT is super interesting and Gary Trent could be too, but as you say, it will be interesting to see what his value is in FA. The Blazers have a really expensive team, so teams could definitely see a chance to get him. THT is 20, Trent is 22.

[sco]

I'm starting to consider the possibility that LaVine, Coby and Pat Williams could all be serious parts of a high level "core." But you would need two things in relation to having those 3 guys as part of your primary lineup:

(1) most importantly - a "point wing" or "point combo-forward"; and
(2) a strong defensive center (rim protection, rebounding, not too much of an offensive liability).

I'm not so worried about item #2. It's Item #1 that's interesting to me - particularly if Coby can excel as an off-ball scorer and secondary/tertiary ball-handler (and improve his defense) - a la Ben Gordon. In the short run, a Sato or Val can sort of play the "point wing" role, but not well enough to have the team be a real contender.

In the draft though, Cade Cunningham , Scottie Barnes (noting the shooting issues), Jalen Johnson (also some shooting questions) and maybe Josh Giddy could fit the bill. Maybe Kuminga, too.

In FA, one guy who is a bit older but might be worth a look is Demarr DeRozan. For the 3 past seasons he's averaged over 5 assists per game, and this season he's up to 6.7 (in 34 minutes). His weakness from 3 is a problem but this season he's at a poor but passable 33% on 2 attempts per game. THT *might* actually fit the bill, too, although that's more projection on some flashes of vision and handle than anything that's been really established (even to the extent that the above-mentioned draft options).

But *if* Coby can be a plus player as a non-point scorer (a big, big "if"), with Pat looking like an excellent "glue" combo-forward... the Bulls may be a lot close to a highly competitive core than I thought earlier in the season.

I agree with your concept, but DeRozan is not the "point wing" you need. He has become a decent playmaker when playing with 4 spacers, so your 5 would need to be a decent shooter too. More importantly, he is awful defender. I don't think you can build a winning lineup with 3 below average perimeter defenders.

I agree with both of your points. I was thinking the other day if Lonzo could serve as the point forward next to Zach and Coby.

I was also wondering if we could nab Randle from the Knicks.

[TheSuzerain]

Collins is very talented, but I think he'd be immediately less dynamic in Chicago as he'd have no playmaking wizard to play off of.

[drosestruts]

UFA:
Kyle Lowry
Richuan Holmes
Dennis Schroder
Denzel Valentine
Khem Birch


Player Option
Kawhi Leonard (gotta call if he opts out)
Spencer Dinwiddie


RFA
Lonzo Ball
Zach Collins
John Collins (will probably cost more than I'd want to give)

[jnrjr79]

I just don't understand why Coby gets lumped in with Lavine/PWill as a top asset.

He's very plainly not that. Goal should be to build the best team we can. Not to jump through hoops so that Coby can stay a starter.

100%. Coby looks like he could be a nice luxury - an off-the-bench heater who can score in bursts that you ride when he's not. I do not think he's ever going to be a natural PG and don't think he'll ever be a great fit next to Zach. I don't particularly mind if the Bulls keep trotting him out as the starting 1 this season for development purposes, but I've seen enough.

Lavine and Williams are the only guys I'm inclined to treat as "core" at this point.