PG:New York Minute

[Indomitable]

I took a lot of flack when I picked this team 3rd in the east. I don't think they are anywhere close to their ceiling. Vuc is the key to me if he plays at an all star level the Bulls have a legit shot. I'm not blown away by the Nets or Bucks tbh.

I chose them to when 60 games.

[jump]

Last night's game made the Vuc trade look very good.

1) When Vuc's shot isn't falling, he's not a particularly strong player. But when it is falling, he is better than Wendell can be. Last night he was better than Wendell could be.

Agree if Vuc can play like this on offense with any remote consistency, this team is awesome and this trade worked out great.

2) Without that trade, we probably don't get DeMar.

I don't understand why people think this. We know of no one else who offered him significant money. He was literally deciding between us at 87M and the Clippers at 15M. There were no contenders that could offer him money and also no reason to think our team was a significant talent base or title contender. Vegas had us as a .500 team after the off-season was over.

He didn't come here for the talent, he came for 70M+ extra dollars.

That said, #2 doesn't really matter if #1 can be shown to be consistently true.

What about the talk that Vuc had been recruiting DDR? Do you discount that? If not, the Vuc trade clearly did contribute to DDR's decision to join the Bulls.

[TheFinishSniper]

It's been a while, but finally interested and enjoying Bulls basketball.

Same. I've been gone for 5 years.

There are basketball junkies who like rebuilding, they get into "the process" and draft picks. We had guys on this board last year talking about how cool it would be to be an OKC fan. But 90% of NBA fans couldn't be bothered with that stuff. Just give them a team that can play. My office is talking about the Bulls now, for the first time in 5 years. The team was dead to them until this year. I would guess that is what it's like throughout Chicago. The Bulls are once again relevant.

lets not do this. I like rebuilds, specially when you have no future prospects like Bulls did. It was good decision to rebuild. Rebuild itself was not a issue, its was people behind it. The way Bulls did rebuild was just terrible. Which is not suprising given people who were in charge were in charge before off and were reason why it was our only option.

Our rebuild could have easily ended up instead Lauri-White-WCJ be Adebayo-Luka-Herro.

[dougthonus]

What about the talk that Vuc had been recruiting DDR? Do you discount that? If not, the Vuc trade clearly did contribute to DDR's decision to join the Bulls.

DeMar wanted to go to LA. He first discussed how he wanted to go to the Lakers but they didn't sign him. Paul George, a considerably better player was recruiting DeMar to play in his preferred destination, but they couldn't pay him more than 15M or so.

No Vuc, wasn't the difference. 70M dollars was the difference. It amazes me that people even begin to think Vuc was the difference here. It's literally mind boggling and ignores the entire history of contract negotiations.

People choose contracts typically for these reasons and typically in this order:
1: Money
2: Chance to win
3: Location

We know that Chicago lost both #2 and #3 to the Clippers by DeMar's own words, but we really think that it was Vuc's recruiting efforts and not the #1 thing that says virtually every contract ever handed out in the league? I'm glad Vuc recruited him, I'm sure it didn't hurt the situation, but no, it wasn't the difference maker. I think Marc Eversley whom had a long standing relationship with him in Toronto would have been the far bigger recruiting difference.

--edited out inaccuracy of Vuc/DeMar not playing together, since the were on the same team for one season in college (though Vuc barely played that year and was a scrub).

[sco]

Last night's game made the Vuc trade look very good.

1) When Vuc's shot isn't falling, he's not a particularly strong player. But when it is falling, he is better than Wendell can be. Last night he was better than Wendell could be.

Agree if Vuc can play like this on offense with any remote consistency, this team is awesome and this trade worked out great.

2) Without that trade, we probably don't get DeMar.

I don't understand why people think this. We know of no one else who offered him significant money. He was literally deciding between us at 87M and the Clippers at 15M. There were no contenders that could offer him money and also no reason to think our team was a significant talent base or title contender. Vegas had us as a .500 team after the off-season was over.

He didn't come here for the talent, he came for 70M+ extra dollars.

That said, #2 doesn't really matter if #1 can be shown to be consistently true.

What about the talk that Vuc had been recruiting DDR? Do you discount that? If not, the Vuc trade clearly did contribute to DDR's decision to join the Bulls.

I feel like the Vuc trade criticism has been somewhat misdirected. Billy's system uses the C position that is unnatural and not to the strengths of most NBA C's. IMO, that necessitated the Vuc trade more than anything else. Carter couldn't play it, Lauri couldn't play it (although he should have). Thad could play it, but was undersized to be the starter there.

[dougthonus]

I feel like the Vuc trade criticism has been somewhat misdirected. Billy's system uses the C position that is unnatural and not to the strengths of most NBA C's. IMO, that necessitated the Vuc trade more than anything else. Carter couldn't play it, Lauri couldn't play it (although he should have). Thad could play it, but was undersized to be the starter there.

As by far the biggest critic of the Vuc trade that I know, I'll say again, my criticism mainly came down these 4 things:
1: I like Carter a lot more than most people
2: I believed in Vuc less (and still do) than most people
3: I value draft picks more than most people
4: I didn't believe in the talent of this team assembled to do something in the near timeline

If Vuc can continue to play like the last two games, then he will prove me wrong in #2 and I will change my mind. I've already changed my mind on #4, this was an incredible off-season turn around by AKME and have flipped this team into a real contender.

This trade may absolutely be a game changing positive trade by the end of this season, but that will be based on Vuc playing well, and not based on these reasons people invented out of thin air to try and justify him not playing well like we got DeMar because of him or he's a threat that opens up everything else, or whatever else. No, we win this trade by him playing to the levels he did the last two seasons, and the last two games were fantastic steps towards exactly that.

[FriedRise]

This is just nuts.

Read on Twitter

[Red8911]

What about the talk that Vuc had been recruiting DDR? Do you discount that? If not, the Vuc trade clearly did contribute to DDR's decision to join the Bulls.

DeMar wanted to go to LA. He first discussed how he wanted to go to the Lakers but they didn't sign him. Paul George, a considerably better player was recruiting DeMar to play in his preferred destination, but they couldn't pay him more than 15M or so.

No Vuc, wasn't the difference. 70M dollars was the difference. It amazes me that people even begin to think Vuc was the difference here. It's literally mind boggling and ignores the entire history of contract negotiations.

People choose contracts typically for these reasons and typically in this order:
1: Money
2: Chance to win
3: Location

We know that Chicago lost both #2 and #3 to the Clippers by DeMar's own words, but we really think that it was Vuc's recruiting efforts and not the #1 thing that says virtually every contract ever handed out in the league? I'm glad Vuc recruited him, I'm sure it didn't hurt the situation, but no, it wasn't the difference maker. He's never even played with Vuc. If you wanted to say there was a recruitment difference maker, it was almost certainly Mark Eversley whom had a long standing relationship with Vuc in Toronto.

Derozen and Vuc played together in college so they did know each other from before but you’re right money was the biggest factor for coming to Chicago. Also I’m sure he looked at the roster Zach,Vuc, Ball and was excited to win as well along with getting paid.

[nomorezorro]

2) Without that trade, we probably don't get DeMar.

I don't understand why people think this. We know of no one else who offered him significant money. He was literally deciding between us at 87M and the Clippers at 15M. There were no contenders that could offer him money and also no reason to think our team was a significant talent base or title contender. Vegas had us as a .500 team after the off-season was over.

He didn't come here for the talent, he came for 70M+ extra dollars.

yeah, but do we go as hard for derozan if we don’t have vucevic shifting the perception of what this team’s timeline is? it’s weird to defend the vucevic trade on the grounds of “it made the front office more desperate,” but i do think it worked out for the best even if orlando probably got better value

(i also think it’s fair to wonder if demar doesn’t take a year with the clippers on the MLE and retest the market in 2022 if he can’t even squint and convince himself going to the bulls isn’t exclusively a money move, even if i agree it’s really hard to imagine him actually turning it down)

[Red8911]

Last night's game made the Vuc trade look very good.

1) When Vuc's shot isn't falling, he's not a particularly strong player. But when it is falling, he is better than Wendell can be. Last night he was better than Wendell could be.

2) Without that trade, we probably don't get DeMar.

And without the good version of Vuc and, even more, having DeMar, we don't win that game. The Vuc trade gave us an upside that we would not otherwise possess. It made this team relevant in a way that retaining Wendell would not. I think it remains the right decision, despite concerns about Vuc's mobility and his 2021 offensive problems.

Vuc is on another level compared to Carter. That’s why the bulls traded assets to get him, he’s a difference maker. Carter isn’t and never will be a player like that.

[Jcool0]

What about the talk that Vuc had been recruiting DDR? Do you discount that? If not, the Vuc trade clearly did contribute to DDR's decision to join the Bulls.

DeMar wanted to go to LA. He first discussed how he wanted to go to the Lakers but they didn't sign him. Paul George, a considerably better player was recruiting DeMar to play in his preferred destination, but they couldn't pay him more than 15M or so.

No Vuc, wasn't the difference. 70M dollars was the difference. It amazes me that people even begin to think Vuc was the difference here. It's literally mind boggling and ignores the entire history of contract negotiations.

People choose contracts typically for these reasons and typically in this order:
1: Money
2: Chance to win
3: Location

We know that Chicago lost both #2 and #3 to the Clippers by DeMar's own words, but we really think that it was Vuc's recruiting efforts and not the #1 thing that says virtually every contract ever handed out in the league? I'm glad Vuc recruited him, I'm sure it didn't hurt the situation, but no, it wasn't the difference maker. I think Marc Eversley whom had a long standing relationship with him in Toronto would have been the far bigger recruiting difference.

--edited out inaccuracy of Vuc/DeMar not playing together, since the played one year together in college.

FWIW Kawhi Leonard isn't playing this year. So no Chicago does not lose out on "change to win" to the Clippers, who aren't a playoff team with George as there best player.

[dougthonus]

FWIW Kawhi Leonard isn't playing this year. So no Chicago does not lose out on "change to win" to the Clippers, who aren't a playoff team with George as there best player.

Looking it up, the Clippers without DeMar and the Bulls with DeMar, Vegas had the Clippers as 5 win favorites over the Bulls. Had he gone to the Clippers those odds would have shifted even more.

[Jcool0]

FWIW Kawhi Leonard isn't playing this year. So no Chicago does not lose out on "change to win" to the Clippers, who aren't a playoff team with George as there best player.

Go find some preseason rankings that had the Bulls total wins or title odds higher than the Clippers for chance to win before the season started. And that would be with DeMar on the Bulls. If DeMar were on the Clippers those odds would have been even more stacked the other way.

Bulls 42.5

LA 45.5

What a difference.

Paul George isnt good enough to be a #1 on any team and them do anything in the playoffs.

[dougthonus]

FWIW Kawhi Leonard isn't playing this year. So no Chicago does not lose out on "change to win" to the Clippers, who aren't a playoff team with George as there best player.

Go find some preseason rankings that had the Bulls total wins or title odds higher than the Clippers for chance to win before the season started. And that would be with DeMar on the Bulls. If DeMar were on the Clippers those odds would have been even more stacked the other way.

Bulls 42.5

LA 45.5

What a difference.

Paul George isnt good enough to be a #1 on any team and them do anything in the playoffs.

And how big is the difference if DeMar went to the Clippers instead? Or if Kawhi comes back for the playoffs (he wouldn't impact regular season much but absolutely could be there for the playoffs).

Either way, Clippers had a better team and DeMar wanted to be in California. He came to the Bulls for the money and that's totally fine. If the Clippers could have paid him 87M he'd be a Clipper though, and it's silly to think otherwise.

[Red8911]

I love Green, but he cannot guard Randle. Should have some sort of upgrade there by the time we play them again.

I might have lost months off my life there. And I don't really have enough to spare, HWhoooo...

Green is a 15 minute a night guy. We miss Pat I don't care how bad he looked early.

And those 15 minutes shouldn’t be at PF unless the the other team is playing small too.

I like Green he plays hard all the time,his defense is great, love the occasional cut to the basket and power dunks and most importantly I like that he knows his role.

It’s true he’s not tall enough to be a PF but at the same time he doesn’t have to go up against a Randle every night.Even against him he played good D but Randle showed why he’s an all star and go to guy for the Knicks.

If Green was 2-3 inches taller he would be perfect in this starting lineup, again I do still like him though at that position despite his size. Bulls should definitely get another defensive big for off the bench at least and im pretty sure they will.

[WindyCityBorn]

This is just nuts.

Read on Twitter

That is one of the smoothest prettiest shots I have ever seen. His footwork is insane.

[Jcool0]

Go find some preseason rankings that had the Bulls total wins or title odds higher than the Clippers for chance to win before the season started. And that would be with DeMar on the Bulls. If DeMar were on the Clippers those odds would have been even more stacked the other way.

Bulls 42.5

LA 45.5

What a difference.

Paul George isnt good enough to be a #1 on any team and them do anything in the playoffs.

And how big is the difference if DeMar went to the Clippers instead? Or if Kawhi comes back for the playoffs (he wouldn't impact regular season much but absolutely could be there for the playoffs).

Either way, Clippers had a better team and DeMar wanted to be in California. He came to the Bulls for the money and that's totally fine. If the Clippers could have paid him 87M he'd be a Clipper though, and it's silly to think otherwise.

Clearly no one valued DeMar before the season so i don't think him going to LA changes much on how they were viewed. Bulls have a much better team then LA was ever going to be able to put together this year (Reggie Jackson with 17ppg on 39% shooting would be there 3rd best player). So not sure with DeMar they are a lock and even if they made the playoffs, a rusty/not 100% Kawhi isnt going to change anything.

[WindyCityBorn]

I feel like the Vuc trade criticism has been somewhat misdirected. Billy's system uses the C position that is unnatural and not to the strengths of most NBA C's. IMO, that necessitated the Vuc trade more than anything else. Carter couldn't play it, Lauri couldn't play it (although he should have). Thad could play it, but was undersized to be the starter there.

As by far the biggest critic of the Vuc trade that I know, I'll say again, my criticism mainly came down these 4 things:
1: I like Carter a lot more than most people
2: I believed in Vuc less (and still do) than most people
3: I value draft picks more than most people
4: I didn't believe in the talent of this team assembled to do something in the near timeline

If Vuc can continue to play like the last two games, then he will prove me wrong in #2 and I will change my mind. I've already changed my mind on #4, this was an incredible off-season turn around by AKME and have flipped this team into a real contender.

This trade may absolutely be a game changing positive trade by the end of this season, but that will be based on Vuc playing well, and not based on these reasons people invented out of thin air to try and justify him not playing well like we got DeMar because of him or he's a threat that opens up everything else, or whatever else. No, we win this trade by him playing to the levels he did the last two seasons, and the last two games were fantastic steps towards exactly that.

I think it is more likely he plays closer to the last two games than previous games ones. He had been abysmally bad to to point that it didn’t make any sense. If we can get 18/10 out of him on average night with Zach and DeMar dropping 25 apiece that is one Hell of Big 3 scoring trip.

[WindyCityBorn]

I think we are stuck with this dwarf ball until the trade deadline. We really need two more legit bigs. They don’t even need to good. Just competent.

where do you envision two more bigs fitting into the rotation, exactly? if we just wanted bodies we'd be throwing alize and bradley onto the floor. but, as painful as it is when teams are exploiting our lack of size, ~small ball~ has clearly been beneficial on balance for the bulls this season. we're a top 10 defense, top 5 net rating. the schemes are working, even if the aesthetics are atypical.

the way i see it, we could use one (1) guy who is vaguely morris twins-sized to round out our roster. bulky (or long) enough to do a credible job with the rare giannis/davis/randle star PF defensive assignments, but mobile enough to fit into our team defensive scheme.

When does Noah Vonleh's season end in China? I don't follow their league. He'd be a good, cheap addition. He's got size. Not a complete stiff. Has some NBA experience. He'd return stateside hungry. And give us 6 more fouls on tough to cover bigs we might face.

We need a starting PF and backup C that Donovan will actually play. We are serious about trying to make a playoff run Green and DJJ cannot be the answers at PF and backup C. Caruso and Ball guarding other team’s PFs is not a solution either. We need a couple of bigs that can give us a solid 15 to 20 minutes of defense and rebounding a game.

[Dan Z]

Play of the game?

Read on Twitter

For Caruso yes. But Zach wasn't fouled, he didn't finish that layup.

But luckily for us Thibs made a bad call and used a challenge much earlier on a iffy call and lost it, and didn't have it for this foul.

Yeah that was not a good layup attempt for Zach lol. Kinda the opposite of what you think with him. That looked more like me.

Haha! Can you play PF? The Bulls could use one!