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O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson

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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#221 » by Jcool0 » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:09 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Vuc is a 25M player. He is a 2x All Star.


Based on last year, Vuc, is a 10M dollar player.

Gobert is a 4x All NBA player, 3x All-Star, 6x All-Defensive & 3x DPOTY. Who just had 15.6 ppg on 71% shooting and 14.7 rebounds season.

He might not be worth 45 million at age 33 (there are a lot of guys you could say that about). But lets not act like he isn't an elite player.


If you look at other top notch defensive players with limited offensive skills, they generally aren't 30%+ cap guys. Particularly when they can't defend the perimeter in today's NBA. I'd say going backwards, Gobert is probably a 30Mish player, but we aren't going backwards, we're looking forwards.


Is Gobert going to start taking 5 threes a game anytime soon? No. But he can score. People are treating him like he is Daniel Gafford.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#222 » by jnrjr79 » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:13 pm

chitownsports4ever wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:
FriedRise wrote:


I generally agree, and great defense will get us through the regular season just fine, but my worry with a team full of offensively-challenged players is often times great offense > great defense. When the other team has that guy who keeps draining shots while you play perfect defense and you can't answer on the other end, it's game over.
[/qote]

These NBA Finals pretty squarely undercut this belief!

The Finals are featuring the #1 and #2 DRTG teams in the NBA. They were the #9 and #16 ORTG teams.


I dont think so Tatum, Brown, Curry, Klay ,and even Poole have shown themselves to be elite scorers of which that lineup wouldn't have nearly the same offensive capabilities

Im sure that lineup would be able to hold teams close to the 104 ppg that Boston has this year but I doubt they would be able to consistently score more than that as well.

This doesn't even take into account that some of our lineup would probably be on minute restrictions in the regular season for the rest of their careers.


You can't really "I don't think so" this kind of a response. The ORTG and DRTG are what they are. The Celtics and Warriors are the highest in the league on defense and upper middle class on offense. If you think those metrics are poor measurements, then fine, but the numbers are the numbers.

The Bulls prior to Zachs injury in Jan had the #13 ORTG and the #4 DRTG


Yes, and they were the best team in the East. Seems like good defense goes far!
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#223 » by D_GoLow » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:18 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
D_GoLow wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
interesting wasn't he against this yesterday?


Haha I'm not sure, it's a good read!


from earlier in this thread

Read on Twitter


That was my initial take as well.

His last point in this article really sums it up in a which would you rather...

Williams's potential to become an all star, Vuc's versatility and flexibility to have a slightly more defined long term future

Or

Gobert's ability to elevate the Bulls to a higher level during the window of contention that is DeRozan's prime

I honestly don't know how I feel anymore
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#224 » by ThisGuyFawkes » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:18 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Vuc is a 25M player. He is a 2x All Star.


Based on last year, Vuc, is a 10M dollar player.

Gobert is a 4x All NBA player, 3x All-Star, 6x All-Defensive & 3x DPOTY. Who just had 15.6 ppg on 71% shooting and 14.7 rebounds season.

He might not be worth 45 million at age 33 (there are a lot of guys you could say that about). But lets not act like he isn't an elite player.


If you look at other top notch defensive players with limited offensive skills, they generally aren't 30%+ cap guys. Particularly when they can't defend the perimeter in today's NBA. I'd say going backwards, Gobert is probably a 30Mish player, but we aren't going backwards, we're looking forwards.


Is Gobert going to start taking 5 threes a game anytime soon? No. But he can score. People are treating him like he is Daniel Gafford.



He can score if someone sets him up. Vuc, on the other hand, can create for himself with his post game. Not saying I prefer Vuc over Gobert, but let's stop pretending like Gobert is in the same realm as Vuc offensively.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#225 » by chitownsports4ever » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:19 pm

jnrjr79 wrote:
chitownsports4ever wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:
I generally agree, and great defense will get us through the regular season just fine, but my worry with a team full of offensively-challenged players is often times great offense > great defense. When the other team has that guy who keeps draining shots while you play perfect defense and you can't answer on the other end, it's game over.
[/qote]

These NBA Finals pretty squarely undercut this belief!

The Finals are featuring the #1 and #2 DRTG teams in the NBA. They were the #9 and #16 ORTG teams.


I dont think so Tatum, Brown, Curry, Klay ,and even Poole have shown themselves to be elite scorers of which that lineup wouldn't have nearly the same offensive capabilities

Im sure that lineup would be able to hold teams close to the 104 ppg that Boston has this year but I doubt they would be able to consistently score more than that as well.

This doesn't even take into account that some of our lineup would probably be on minute restrictions in the regular season for the rest of their careers.


You can't really "I don't think so" this kind of a response. The ORTG and DRTG are what they are. The Celtics and Warriors are the highest in the league on defense and upper middle class on offense. If you think those metrics are poor measurements, then fine, but the numbers are the numbers.

Exactly the numbers are the numbers you just conveniently ignored the numbers that didn't fit your argument . I just listed 5 offensive players better than the guys in that trio. Boston and GS are not offensively challenged teams and are not even close to being offensively challenged .
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#226 » by dougthonus » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:22 pm

Jcool0 wrote:Is Gobert going to start taking 5 threes a game anytime soon? No. But he can score. People are treating him like he is Daniel Gafford.


I was referencing his ability to defend the three point line, not shoot threes himself. If you compare him to defensive anchors such as Ben Wallace or Dikembe Motumbo in their past, those guys weren't worth 30% of the cap, particularly at this age. Gobert is better offensively than either of those guys I would say, but his defensive value is also less due to the style of the game being so perimeter oriented vs when those guys played.

To be clear though, I'm on the fence with Gobert, so not to get caught up in details, I'd say my overall view is this:

Contract:
Somewhere between situationally worth it and really bad depending on his health and if he regresses. At his current level of play, he's situationally worth it, but there are considerable risks that won't hold over four years. It will be difficult to add more pieces once we put him on the roster. We'll have limited flexibility and also have a pretty thin team with some significant shooting holes to fill.

Impact:
If he stays healthy clearly improves the team and helps with large needs. A healthy Bulls roster could build a great defense even with Zach/DeMar in the lineup with Gobert and that would be really intriguing. It would be difficult to space the floor around him with DeMar, but I think the overall impact would be pretty positive. I'd view us as a likely 2nd round exit team if we traded Vuc + Coby + Pat for Gobert and had a healthy roster vs a borderline 1st/2nd round team if we remain healthy and don't trade for him.

Would I ultimately do it? I think maybe. Depends on the end offer. The team seems hell bent on trying to win now, and I think it's going to be ugly when the bills come due. That said, let's say you could trade DeMar + Zach for a combo of 5 total future 1st round picks and say 1-2 have land in the lottery and 3-4 land around 20ish, what is hat likely to do for you? Probably not a whole lot exciting.

If you are looking for better "win now" moves, I think you're unlikely to find any. If I could trade for Myles Turner at a much lower cost, I would probably do it, but hard to say if that's realistic.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#227 » by GetBuLLish » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:35 pm

dougthonus wrote:If you are looking for better "win now" moves, I think you're unlikely to find any.


Ultimately, this is the most critical issue. Are there any other better, realistic options on the table? I highly doubt it. And if there aren't, the choice is between taking the risk on Gobert or standing pat and knowing that the team is basically going nowhere.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#228 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:55 pm

Enes Kanter is probably better than Vuc.

Vuc was not a $10 million player last year. He failed utterly in his role.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#229 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:58 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Is Gobert going to start taking 5 threes a game anytime soon? No. But he can score. People are treating him like he is Daniel Gafford.


I was referencing his ability to defend the three point line, not shoot threes himself. If you compare him to defensive anchors such as Ben Wallace or Dikembe Motumbo in their past, those guys weren't worth 30% of the cap, particularly at this age. Gobert is better offensively than either of those guys I would say, but his defensive value is also less due to the style of the game being so perimeter oriented vs when those guys played.

To be clear though, I'm on the fence with Gobert, so not to get caught up in details, I'd say my overall view is this:

Contract:
Somewhere between situationally worth it and really bad depending on his health and if he regresses. At his current level of play, he's situationally worth it, but there are considerable risks that won't hold over four years. It will be difficult to add more pieces once we put him on the roster. We'll have limited flexibility and also have a pretty thin team with some significant shooting holes to fill.

Impact:
If he stays healthy clearly improves the team and helps with large needs. A healthy Bulls roster could build a great defense even with Zach/DeMar in the lineup with Gobert and that would be really intriguing. It would be difficult to space the floor around him with DeMar, but I think the overall impact would be pretty positive. I'd view us as a likely 2nd round exit team if we traded Vuc + Coby + Pat for Gobert and had a healthy roster vs a borderline 1st/2nd round team if we remain healthy and don't trade for him.

Would I ultimately do it? I think maybe. Depends on the end offer. The team seems hell bent on trying to win now, and I think it's going to be ugly when the bills come due. That said, let's say you could trade DeMar + Zach for a combo of 5 total future 1st round picks and say 1-2 have land in the lottery and 3-4 land around 20ish, what is hat likely to do for you? Probably not a whole lot exciting.

If you are looking for better "win now" moves, I think you're unlikely to find any. If I could trade for Myles Turner at a much lower cost, I would probably do it, but hard to say if that's realistic.

Gobert has very obvious and positive impacts on his team's ability to defend the 3. Imagine what Caruso and Ball are freed up to do when they know Gobert is behind them.

And anyway that's what elite defense in the NBA looks like, the other team settling for 3's.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#230 » by LateNight » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:58 pm

GetBuLLish wrote:
dougthonus wrote:If you are looking for better "win now" moves, I think you're unlikely to find any.


Ultimately, this is the most critical issue. Are there any other better, realistic options on the table? I highly doubt it. And if there aren't, the choice is between taking the risk on Gobert or standing pat and knowing that the team is basically going nowhere.


I don’t think that’s a good summary.

It’s a gamble either way. If you take Gobert, you’re gambling that the chemistry/spacing work, he doesn’t regress, and that the few offensive pieces remain healthy. You’re also gambling that there's not a better deal to be made later with those same assets.

If you don’t trade him, You're gambling that Pat & Ayo improve, and that you can get a different shot blocking center that can give you at least some of the defensive production on a smaller contract.

Honestly, I feel like the second bet is safer and higher ceiling. Plus, you still have the ability to pursue other trade options.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#231 » by Jeffster81 » Wed Jun 8, 2022 4:29 pm

I would probably make the Gobert trade but given the contract status, I definitely want a first coming back from Utah. Doesn't have to be 22 or 23. I am patient, I'd take a '24 FRP.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#232 » by meekrab » Wed Jun 8, 2022 4:35 pm

biggestbullsfan wrote:Don’t think Rudy is a great option since he can’t score.

Vucevic 19.2 pts per 36 on 17.2 shots
Gobert 17.4 pts per 36 on 8.6 shots

Seems more like Vucevic "can't score" to me.

Anyway, good to see that AKME see the same problems with the team we all see.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#233 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Wed Jun 8, 2022 4:47 pm

Who tf is Will Gottlieb? He has 6k twitter followers.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#234 » by FriedRise » Wed Jun 8, 2022 4:56 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
D_GoLow wrote:https://allchgo.com/2022/06/08/why-i-would-love-if-the-bulls-traded-patrick-williams-for-rudy-gobert/

Per Will Gottlieb


interesting wasn't he against this yesterday?


I think a lot of us are this way.

We all realize how dominant of a player Gobert is, but you also can't ignore the fact that he doesn't directly address the things that proved to be our downfall in the playoffs (shooting).
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#235 » by LateNight » Wed Jun 8, 2022 5:05 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:Who tf is Will Gottlieb? He has 6k twitter followers.


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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#236 » by CROBulls » Wed Jun 8, 2022 5:08 pm

meekrab wrote:
biggestbullsfan wrote:Don’t think Rudy is a great option since he can’t score.

Vucevic 19.2 pts per 36 on 17.2 shots
Gobert 17.4 pts per 36 on 8.6 shots

Seems more like Vucevic "can't score" to me.

Anyway, good to see that AKME see the same problems with the team we all see.

Vuc was so inefficient last year it made me mad. Because he was on paper only big with good offensive arsenal to be utilized well and he massively struggled to shoot. And it's not like he was being tightly guarded and being heavily game planned. Amount of open shots and jumpers he missed was astonishing for big man who played with two really efficient guards in PnR and PnP.

You must have in mind that I can struggle to see Gobert having same issues because he is efficient for role he plays. And Bulls unlike Jazz have two guys who can play lob threat with Gobert.

If we deal Patrick Williams for Gobert, Bulls need to find another trade for starting stretch PF with assets like #18, White and Green.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#237 » by DASMACKDOWN » Wed Jun 8, 2022 5:17 pm

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#238 » by Salo23 » Wed Jun 8, 2022 5:18 pm

Gobert would eat up almost all of our flexibility to improve the team in the near future due to his massive salary and trade assets it would take to acquire him. But I feel like he would be a great fit here and if the luxury tax wasn’t an issue then I wouldn’t care as much.

Other options for huge rim protecting bigs…
-Trades for Mitchell Robinson, Mo Bamba, Jakob Poetl
-Move down a few spots from pick 18 and draft Mark Williams
-Have a prearranged deal for Walker Kessler in the 2nd round where we instruct a team to draft him for us then acquire him afterwards (not sure if possible due to tampering ruling)
-Cheap vets Javale McGee / Hassan Whiteside
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#239 » by DuckIII » Wed Jun 8, 2022 5:18 pm

FriedRise wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
D_GoLow wrote:https://allchgo.com/2022/06/08/why-i-would-love-if-the-bulls-traded-patrick-williams-for-rudy-gobert/

Per Will Gottlieb


interesting wasn't he against this yesterday?


I think a lot of us are this way.

We all realize how dominant of a player Gobert is, but you also can't ignore the fact that he doesn't directly address the things that proved to be our downfall in the playoffs (shooting).


Gobert absolutely does improve a major weakness on this team. Yes our shooting was poor in 4 playoff games and we were a low volume three point team, but it’s not that hard to find three point shooters. Not a piece of cake, but not hard. Finding one player that completely overhauls your entire interior defense is nearly impossible.
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Re: O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson 

Post#240 » by chitownsports4ever » Wed Jun 8, 2022 5:25 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.


Of course at 20 million a year to extend our flexibility window while we continue to accumulate assets . I can get Whiteside to do what Gobert does for half of the MLE but without giving up any assets.

If you are spending 40 million on a center whose name is not Jokic ,Embiid or even Towns you are doing it wrong .
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