teamCHItown wrote:I agree with pretty much everything Rerisen has said, as usual.
What's lost in this thread, is that no one, including me, has said that Rose isn't a good player, or that he won't improve, or anything of the sort. Myself and some others have simply questioned the young Lebron, Kobe, Garnett, etc vision that people have had of Rose. Obviously the guy has a lot of talent. Obviously he could still become a HOFer.
Yet I don't know how anyone who follows this league cannot look at Rose and say, wow, he looks like he'll be an all-star - a great player - rather than looking at him and saying he's a sure fire franchise player superstar, which is what a lot of folks have been saying for a year now. It just doesn't jive. I listed the past 15 ROYs earlier in thi sthread. Most of them were better than Rose this early in their careers, and most of them you would not want to have made untouchable in retrospect by looking at their careers.
There's like 5-10 "untouchable" players in the league - guys you would only trade for one another. Everyone else has a price. I simply was pondering whether, due to the intense hype around Derrick Rose, it might be worth thinking abotu what we could get for him, as his value likley will not be higher than it is right now for a while - due to his rookie deal.
It would probably take a real star being unhappy with his current team - trying to force a trade - for there to be a good enough player hauled for me to actually want to trade Rose,. but that happens. I mean, think of Rose like Al Jefferson a few years ago. The Celtics got old KG for him and won a title.
No one ever said to trade him just to trade him, or to trade him for crap - that would be lunacy.
For the most part I think we should hold onto him - see if he can turn the corner this year and add a max FA. But if we fail, and he's still just an above average PG this time next year, we should trade him while he still has that new car smell.
And to the ball boys who insist on saying this is an overreaction, even accusing me of admitting it because I said I may not have made the thread had the Bulls won - why? Are we only supposed to come to ideas, thoughts or conclusions in the offseason? I don't get that. It's not like I was feeling differently before the game, it's just that at one point - that further additional poor game starts to turn you, and you feel like talking about it.
I love Derrick Rose - minus his blank stare and relatively low bball IQ (for a "PG"). I'm just not blindly following a guy who scores half of what he should into the next 10 years without thinking about it carefully.
Talent is a prequisite for a great player - but it's far from sufficient. I honestly believe that Tyrus Thomas and Marcus Fizer have (or had in Fizer's case) the talent to score 25 a game in this league just like Rose does. What happened to them?
The discussion I meant to invoke was one where it was debated whether the mantra of buy low-sell high should also apply to great players.
I agree with much of what you said... but there's sufficient evidence that points to Derrick having a pretty good bball IQ, and you can't seriously compare Fizer or Tyrus to him? Crawford, Deng, I could bundle in that group... Rose made it clear that he's on another level after the rookie campaign.
Thing with guards... I believe there's a reason Kobe and Wade became the players they are. In their youngest, most athletically prime years, they were playing in the shadow of a dominant Shaq, incredibly savy coaches (Jackson, Van Gundy, Riley), and in a locker room full of very savy veterans.
SHAQ...
Fox, Horry, Green, Horace Grant, Harper, Shaw, Fisher, Lindsey Hunter...
Zo, Posey, Payton, Walker...
Yeah some punks on those teams...but you can't deny that there's a level of respect and poise you'd expect in a locker room even with near-retirement Payton, Harper, Grant, Zo, etc.
Imagine if Carter had the same opportunity, instead of playing with a maxed out Antonio Davis and Oakley. Might not have questioned his lack of fire if he had 2-3 rings by the time he was 26. What if Pierce had been paired with Garnett when he was 10 years younger? I'm willing to bet his team's success would've put him in the same light as Kobe.
Instead we got Rose surrounded by:
Vinny, who never coached a professional game before Rose got here... might I add he pretty much sucked as a player.
Kirk? I don't want him to show Rose the ropes: "bring ball up slowly, dribble 10 seconds, wait for screen, pop a 20 ft brick"
Deng, our fearless captain, the man who's prediction for the season was "we'll probably lose some games"...
Brad Miller, who kind of reminds me of my 55 year old dad in terms of physique/athleticism...
It's really unfortunate that we perennially blame all our bust players, when they're expected to learn a post-game from Othella Harrington and how to score from Hinrich.
It's simple, really.
Just look at history and observe.
Rondo pre-KG/Allen ... vs... championship Rondo.
Wade/2nd-round/Odom... vs... sophmore champion Wade.
Can you imagine how useless Andrew Bynum would've been as a Bull? He'd probably average 200 minutes a season as Skiles insisted on playing Malik Allen and Hinrich at PF for 1 million minutes each.
All of you blaming Derrick's passiveness... please slow down, and remember he's 21, he's not 6'8 scorer who's gonna score 30 ppg regardless of his team's effort... and look at the big picture. We got a uber-talented PG playing with perhaps the worst matched team he can possibly play with in the NBA.
He's got NO ONE but the blue-collar Noah to throw an alley-oop. He's got no one to kick out to for a 3P. He's got no one to feed the post.It's not fun playing here. Hinrich and Deng don't know how to motivate teammates because they suck and have as much charisma as George Bush Sr.
Can't blame Rose for ANYTHING.
