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PG: Screwed the pooch

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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#241 » by High level » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:45 pm

JeremyB0001 wrote:Everyone, including Fred, needs to get over this idea that Mirotic is "having a terrible game" if he misses a few threes. That kind of thinking is how you end up with perhaps the worst player on the team playing poorly in crunch time and possibly costing the Bulls a win. Mirotic was 0-for-5 on threes. Some were close and could have easily gone down, in which case Mirotic is having a good game. Had he played more, Mirotic could have made three triples in a row after that rough shooting start, in which case he's having a good game. If missing a few good looks from three is really the end of the world, Hoiberg could even send Mirotic in the game with the message not to shoot from three unless there's no defender within eight feet of him. Mirotic wasn't doing anything poorly other than missing a few threes. He had no turnovers, he was playing his usual solid defense, and he was a strong +8 in 17 minutes. Portis on the other hand is just not a good player. He's terrible on defense and the Bulls get killed when he's in the game. It was a joke that Hoiberg played him in crunch time and the ostensible reason was that Mirotic missed a few threes, which is an awful reason.

Niko was solid defensively last night I'll give him that. Lol he even guarded CP3 well at times. I was shocked.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#242 » by Bulls03 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:45 pm

High level wrote:
Bulls03 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Rondo is not a winner at this point in his career just state stuffer. Canaan should start put him in a Mario Chalmers 3 and D Pg role while McW is out and let rondo come in with the bench.


We should trade Rondo for a back up big who can actually be effective compared to Bobby and Niko (so inconsistent) and sign the guy you brought up, Chalmers. Starting PG for 2 championship teams and had a great year last year with Memphis before getting injured. That's the only reason he was cut was because of injury and they needed to fill the position and he hasn't been picked up because he's been rehabbing but will be available soon. It's a gamble but I like his fight, Shooting, and defense in the starting lineup or 2nd unit.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#243 » by RakimAbdulJabar » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:48 pm

Bulls03 wrote:
JeremyB0001 wrote:Everyone, including Fred, needs to get over this idea that Mirotic is "having a terrible game" if he misses a few threes. That kind of thinking is how you end up with perhaps the worst player on the team playing poorly in crunch time and possibly costing the Bulls a win. Mirotic was 0-for-5 on threes. Some were close and could have easily gone down, in which case Mirotic is having a good game. Had he played more, Mirotic could have made three triples in a row after that rough shooting start, in which case he's having a good game. If missing a few good looks from three is really the end of the world, Hoiberg could even send Mirotic in the game with the message not to shoot from three unless there's no defender within eight feet of him. Mirotic wasn't doing anything poorly other than missing a few threes. He had no turnovers, he was playing his usual solid defense, and he was a strong +8 in 17 minutes. Portis on the other hand is just not a good player. He's terrible on defense and the Bulls get killed when he's in the game. It was a joke that Hoiberg played him in crunch time and the ostensible reason was that Mirotic missed a few threes, which is an awful reason.


Good point. At least Niko would've been a threat on offense if he had wide open looks. There's nothing to warrant Portis playing over Lopez, Taj, or Niko in crunch time and if we're going with a stretch big it should be Niko every time.


In shoot around Bobby may have had the most consistent and accurate 3 point shot of anyone on the team. Niko was missing everything, instead of continuing to work on it, he started trying to shoot trick shots really high

As far as last night went, I was more confident in Bobbys shot than Nikos. Long term I prefer Niko and I don't want to defend Fred but I think he made the right choice. Niko wasn't going to recover from his poor shooting he had his head down and zero belief in himself
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#244 » by push » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:03 pm

Mark K wrote:
push wrote:Butler is not clutch
Butler has little offensive game other than driving into fouls, if he doesnt get the call its a 50/50 turnover
Butler is a ballstopper that calls for the ball then realizes he has nowhere to go so he does that spin around on his pivot foot thing searching for someone to desperately pass it to
Butler is a worse iso machine than rose was

Even in his good (boxscore) games I didnt like him. Real stars look smooth, they are naturals, every single one of his shots looks like hes forcing 150% of effort and the form is all off and it just looks bad. His game wont evolve well, because it isnt really game. Its extreme but trade him for some good young pieces or firsts and bring in cp3/griffin


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums


[notices Derrick Rose in the avatar]

Oh, this **** take makes sense now.

You all can dismiss everything I say because I defended Rose, but you can't deny that everything in my post isn't true. I'm actually going to remove my Rose avatar because you all just assume everytime I criticize anything its because of Rose. Rose had to go, I acknowledged that. The only reason I still support him was because of the vitriol he got and people talking **** about his person, personal life, and just being disgusting for unwarranted reasons. I still have my avatar because I'm embarrased by the Rose hate that went too far and wanted to show that not all of us are like that. But that has nothing to do with anything anymore.

Jimmy needs to go. He's a cool guy but his game will eventually blow up in all of your faces.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#245 » by High level » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:06 pm

Bulls03 wrote:
High level wrote:
Bulls03 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Rondo is not a winner at this point in his career just state stuffer. Canaan should start put him in a Mario Chalmers 3 and D Pg role while McW is out and let rondo come in with the bench.


We should trade Rondo for a back up big who can actually be effective compared to Bobby and Niko (so inconsistent) and sign the guy you brought up, Chalmers. Starting PG for 2 championship teams and had a great year last year with Memphis before getting injured. That's the only reason he was cut was because of injury and they needed to fill the position and he hasn't been picked up because he's been rehabbing but will be available soon. It's a gamble but I like his fight, Shooting, and defense in the starting lineup or 2nd unit.

Yeah it's gonna be very tough to be the elites with Rondo Bobby and felicio. We need to upgrade at pg and pf/center. MCW is solid but it's fools gold to think once he gets back we won't have guard problems. MCW is alright but he's not that good as some ppl here thinks.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#246 » by Bulls03 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:13 pm

High level wrote:
Bulls03 wrote:
High level wrote:Rondo is not a winner at this point in his career just state stuffer. Canaan should start put him in a Mario Chalmers 3 and D Pg role while McW is out and let rondo come in with the bench.


We should trade Rondo for a back up big who can actually be effective compared to Bobby and Niko (so inconsistent) and sign the guy you brought up, Chalmers. Starting PG for 2 championship teams and had a great year last year with Memphis before getting injured. That's the only reason he was cut was because of injury and they needed to fill the position and he hasn't been picked up because he's been rehabbing but will be available soon. It's a gamble but I like his fight, Shooting, and defense in the starting lineup or 2nd unit.

Yeah it's gonna be very tough to be the elites with Rondo Bobby and felicio. We need to upgrade at pg and pf/center. MCW is solid but it's fools gold to think once he gets back we won't have guard problems. MCW is alright but he's not that good as some ppl here thinks.


MCWs biggest impact is defensively and I can live with that as long as we have a PG that is good offensively. A trade I would look into it Rondo and Portis or Felicio for Greg Monroe. I think he would help our 2nd unit in place of Portis and Felicio. He's better than both of them but was a DNP-CD the other night and only played 2 minutes last night. If he's a problem to team chemistry then don't do it.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#247 » by JeremyB0001 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:17 pm

RakimAbdulJabar wrote:I love Niko but his defense was not solid at all last night and he didn't look confident at all.


RakimAbdulJabar wrote:In shoot around Bobby may have had the most consistent and accurate 3 point shot of anyone on the team. Niko was missing everything, instead of continuing to work on it, he started trying to shoot trick shots really high

As far as last night went, I was more confident in Bobbys shot than Nikos. Long term I prefer Niko and I don't want to defend Fred but I think he made the right choice. Niko wasn't going to recover from his poor shooting he had his head down and zero belief in himself


As far as the defense, I couldn't disagree more. Mirotic has been good defensively this season and the numbers back it up. I watched the game closely last night and didn't see major deviations from his usual play on that end. He looked good on defense and I think it's part of the reason for his +8. The Clippers scored just 97.8 points per 100 possessions with him in the game.

As far as your prediction that Mirotic lacked the ability to shoot well, last night and would have missed more threes had he attempted him - my entire point is that I don't think you or Hoiberg or anyone else can predict that. People think they can predict whether a player will shoot well by assessing body language, mechanics, what happened on the last few shot attempts, etc. I believe it's a fools errand to try to read the tea leaves like that. If we sat in a room and we called out "make" or "miss" before each three Mirotic shoots, how many do you think we'd get right? I'm guessing not very many. We'd do better just looking at Mirotic's career three point average and predicting that he'll make about 35% of his threes. If Hoiberg did that last night, rather than worrying about Mirotic starting off 0-for-5, you gotta figure he would've played Mirotic over Portis down the stretch, which would have been a much better decision.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#248 » by sco » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:17 pm

1) Rondo returned - negative correlation to wins lately

2) Lopez took 6 shots - ditto

3) Portis played significant minutes - There must be a good reason (ie trade on table for Niko that FO want to understand impact of, or FO want to not resign Niko, but want to know what's in cupboard)
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#249 » by RedBulls23 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:34 pm

rtblues wrote:Not very long ago, the Bulls weren't looking at any backup bigs due to the "glut" of bigs they allegedly had...
Hmm, doesn't seem like much a "glut" right now...

P.S. It also seems like they keep running into the "scrub of the week" going off for their best games, or stretches.
Speights, Amir Johnson, Noah/Rose; Sefolosha... Man, when superstars beat you, fair enough, but damn, these scrubs going off for career nights, what's up with that?

Speights isn't a scrub. He's very capable of getting hot from the field like that.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#250 » by Red Larrivee » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:40 pm

MC3 wrote:I think its clear Fred doesnt belong in NBA. 8-5 record is shameful for talent and how we played this season. We lost ATLEAST 3 games we should have won with good coach. The sooner is gone, the sooner Bulls future will look better.


You're complaining because a team that was picked to win 38 games this year, isn't 11-2 instead of 8-5?

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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#251 » by Ice Man » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:41 pm

RedBulls83 wrote:Speights isn't a scrub. He's very capable of getting hot from the field like that.


Speights should be the first guy that a defense marks, not the last guy. I am not joking. He is useless otherwise, but when it comes to hitting open mid-range jumpers, he's among the best in the NBA.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#252 » by fleet » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:47 pm

Bomba Navarro wrote:So basically first game all season that Butler doesn't look like a superstar and we already got Rose homers coming in to tell us how bad he is. Folks, your lame agenda doesn't interest anybody here anymore. Take your ish to the Knicks board.

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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#253 » by Mech Engineer » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:53 pm

I felt Mirotic should have got another 6-8 minutes at the minimum. I understand Fred's thinking about Portis being the more aggressive defender but it is not much of a difference if you are guarding Stretch 4 types. Mirotic can create better/pass better than Portis. It would be interesting to know what exactly pushed Fred to run Portis over Mirotic. Even if you didn't have a stretch 4, it looks weird to see the top 3 of Lopez/Taj/Niko not getting the max minutes of the big men.

I know Portis made a 3 pt shot but I have more trust in Mirotic on offense. And, it is really odd to see Portis as your #3 big in terms of minutes/plays. Mirotic is a streaky shooter and I absolutely see no big difference in the defense of Mirotic Vs Portis. Mirotic might be bad when isolated 1 on 1 against a guard/wing but Portis is no stud either.

Mirotic/Doug being the pressure release valves when they make 3s is what keeps the other guys from trying to do too much. That said, Mirotic needs to show better offensive thinking of just not chucking 3pt shots. He has to think the game a little better. It is expected of him to be smarter on offense than Portis. That should never be the reason for Fred to go to Portis. Everybody makes mistakes on offense but Mirotic needs to earn Fred's trust that a couple of mistakes will not get carried over to the next possession.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#254 » by fleet » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:00 pm

The second half, I thought the Bulls were reduced to jump shots. Jimmy tried to get to the line. Wade perhaps a couple times. But the Clippers defense basically took over. Just was outclassed, even though the Clipz were tired. I was proud of this team last night, and usually these losses sting a lot more
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#255 » by fleet » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:05 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:I felt Mirotic should have got another 6-8 minutes at the minimum. I understand Fred's thinking about Portis being the more aggressive defender but it is not much of a difference if you are guarding Stretch 4 types. Mirotic can create better/pass better than Portis. It would be interesting to know what exactly pushed Fred to run Portis over Mirotic. Even if you didn't have a stretch 4, it looks weird to see the top 3 of Lopez/Taj/Niko not getting the max minutes of the big men.

I know Portis made a 3 pt shot but I have more trust in Mirotic on offense. And, it is really odd to see Portis as your #3 big in terms of minutes/plays. Mirotic is a streaky shooter and I absolutely see no big difference in the defense of Mirotic Vs Portis. Mirotic might be bad when isolated 1 on 1 against a guard/wing but Portis is no stud either.

Mirotic/Doug being the pressure release valves when they make 3s is what keeps the other guys from trying to do too much. That said, Mirotic needs to show better offensive thinking of just not chucking 3pt shots. He has to think the game a little better. It is expected of him to be smarter on offense than Portis. That should never be the reason for Fred to go to Portis. Everybody makes mistakes on offense but Mirotic needs to earn Fred's trust that a couple of mistakes will not get carried over to the next possession.

Yeah I don't know what Fred was looking at. It was perhaps a decent idea, but the idea wasn't working, and you have to go back to your regulars. Fred needs to be reacting to what was happening in the game more than the strategy in his head. Maybe even go smaller, IDK.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#256 » by Mech Engineer » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:05 pm

Jimmy should have been the helper on defense. The Clippers do not have a stud SF to guard. Their studs are PG, PF. And, Taj being the defender leaving his man to help was a bad idea. I get sometimes there is mis-matches/mix-ups but in general, Jimmy should have been the guy leaving his man and not Rondo or Taj. You cannot leave CP3 or Blake free. They need to body those guys up every second.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#257 » by High level » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:08 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:Jimmy should have been the helper on defense. The Clippers do not have a stud SF to guard. Their studs are PG, PF. And, Taj being the defender leaving his man to help was a bad idea. I get sometimes there is mis-matches/mix-ups but in general, Jimmy should have been the guy leaving his man and not Rondo or Taj. You cannot leave CP3 or Blake free. They need to body those guys up every second.

I agree you have to play the Clips straight up not over helping and we have the players to defend straight up. Here again this falls under coaching. Hoiberg is horrible.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#258 » by RakimAbdulJabar » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:08 pm

JeremyB0001 wrote:
RakimAbdulJabar wrote:I love Niko but his defense was not solid at all last night and he didn't look confident at all.


RakimAbdulJabar wrote:In shoot around Bobby may have had the most consistent and accurate 3 point shot of anyone on the team. Niko was missing everything, instead of continuing to work on it, he started trying to shoot trick shots really high

As far as last night went, I was more confident in Bobbys shot than Nikos. Long term I prefer Niko and I don't want to defend Fred but I think he made the right choice. Niko wasn't going to recover from his poor shooting he had his head down and zero belief in himself


As far as the defense, I couldn't disagree more. Mirotic has been good defensively this season and the numbers back it up. I watched the game closely last night and didn't see major deviations from his usual play on that end. He looked good on defense and I think it's part of the reason for his +8. The Clippers scored just 97.8 points per 100 possessions with him in the game.

As far as your prediction that Mirotic lacked the ability to shoot well, last night and would have missed more threes had he attempted him - my entire point is that I don't think you or Hoiberg or anyone else can predict that. People think they can predict whether a player will shoot well by assessing body language, mechanics, what happened on the last few shot attempts, etc. I believe it's a fools errand to try to read the tea leaves like that. If we sat in a room and we called out "make" or "miss" before each three Mirotic shoots, how many do you think we'd get right? I'm guessing not very many. We'd do better just looking at Mirotic's career three point average and predicting that he'll make about 35% of his threes. If Hoiberg did that last night, rather than worrying about Mirotic starting off 0-for-5, you gotta figure he would've played Mirotic over Portis down the stretch, which would have been a much better decision.


I have never cared nor will I ever care for these +/- stats on a game to game basis as they can be very misleading. Nor do I care for how many points the Clippers might have scored per 100 possessions with him in the game, those are meaningless stats as far as I'm concerned, just like you say we can't predict what would have happened with him out there neither can you :)

To your next point it really depends on when we call out make or miss. Before it leaves his hands obviously there's no way of knowing, however a split second after leaving his hands I'd say I could take a pretty good guess. Some people shoot the ball with a certain projection that you can immediately see which of their shots has no chance.

Like I said, I'm a big Mirotic fan, I don't even like Portis, I've disliked him since he was drafted, and I don't like Hoiberg HOWEVER I will strongly agree to disagree with you about Mirotics defense, effort and ability to recover and/or deserve more minutes last night.

I was literally right behind him, just 2 feet away and I've never seen someone mess with their own mind the way he did. You see guys miss, and they usually react in one of 2 ways, they can remain confident and just believe the next one is going in, or they can complain they were fouled constantly and get angry. Niko had neither approach, he goes to the bench, puts his head down, and just looks defeated. Defensively he made a number of poor decisions (as did others) and he looked slow compared to everyone else out there, whether he was tired, sick, poor foot speed, injured or it was a lack of effort he simply didn't move like the other guys out there in my opinion.

If it were up to me I would have had Felicio and Taj out there instead of Portis or Mirotic. Everyone is talking about Speights killing us but Griffin was getting to the basket at will and causing havoc as everyone was trying to rotate and help on him. He was doing the same thing almost every time and spinning, but the Bulls bigs couldn't guard him
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#259 » by bearadonisdna » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:11 pm

Portis has been playing badly and then played the whole 4th. I liked what rondo did, the entire team played well. You play one of your worst performing players right now extended minutes, thats what lost the game to me.
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Re: PG: Screwed the pooch 

Post#260 » by Jcool0 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:12 pm

Bulls fans really seem to freak out when they find out the Bulls wont win 78 games....

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