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Lets talk Zach Lavine

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What to do with Zach Lavine?

Keep him, he’s part of the core.
176
67%
Trade him, Williams is the only one who Bulls should keep.
86
33%
 
Total votes: 262

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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#241 » by HotelVitale » Fri Jan 1, 2021 6:12 pm

Stratmaster wrote: Ibelieve Zach was in the top 80 or 90 last season (depending on how you set qualifiers) as far as TS%. Is that how you are measuring efficiency? That is certainly not league average.

Overall league average has been around 56% TS the past couple years, you can just google "league average shooting efficiency" and there's a bunch of different places to see it. My guess is that, if your stat is correct, the players below him tend to take fewer shots/possessions so they're not pushing up the league average that much. (E.g. Harden used thousands of shot possessions last season so his efficient shooting boosts league average much more than lower efficiency guys on his team like Rivers or Tucker.)

Stratmaster wrote: I do not agree he is most valuable as an ISO creator. If the Bulls had a true creator getting players open shots Lavine would still score 25 and would do it at well over .600 TS%.

Hmm, I don't feel like it's at all controversial to say that Lavine's greatest value is being able to volume create iso/DHO shots, hard to see how that's not clear (it's also not a knock on him). But if you want to say that he could play with pretty good creators like e.g. Westbrook or McCollum and manage to up both his volume and efficiency, cool, it'd be a tough thing to argue about productively anyway. I'd just say making that move means you're shifting his trade value from a #1 option on a weak offense to a fully elite offensive player, and I don't think that's a move most other teams are going to make. They're likely going to expect him to be the type of volume iso/DHO creator he's been for a while and probably going to bet on him as maintaining the same efficiency he's had for the past 5 seasons (he's been around 56-57% TS every season since 2016 besides his injury one).

So I agree that he's probably not going to bring back the type of return that you're expecting, and maybe shouldn't be on the block if your vision for the team includes him as a really useful part of the ongoing rebuild.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#242 » by erasmusmrr » Fri Jan 1, 2021 6:48 pm

How much better is Booker than Zach? What would the record be this year if they switched places?

Points
Devin Booker 22.4

Zach LaVine 17.8


Rebounds Per Game
Devin Booker 3.6

Zach LaVine 3.6


Assists Per Game
Devin Booker 4.7

Zach LaVine 3.6


Steals Per Game
Devin Booker 0.8

Zach LaVine 1.0


Blocks Per Game
Devin Booker 0.3

Zach LaVine 0.3
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#243 » by sco » Fri Jan 1, 2021 7:07 pm

erasmusmrr wrote:How much better is Booker than Zach? What would the record be this year if they switched places?

Points
Devin Booker 22.4

Zach LaVine 17.8


Rebounds Per Game
Devin Booker 3.6

Zach LaVine 3.6


Assists Per Game
Devin Booker 4.7

Zach LaVine 3.6


Steals Per Game
Devin Booker 0.8

Zach LaVine 1.0


Blocks Per Game
Devin Booker 0.3

Zach LaVine 0.3

Per 36 PPG Booker: 21.5 Lavine: 26.0

PER Booker: 12.3 Lavine: 16.2

So, there's that.
:clap:
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#244 » by nitetrain8603 » Fri Jan 1, 2021 7:16 pm

The only difference between Booker and LaVine besides their teams is Booker likes to lay it in over dunking.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#245 » by Kukoc-Lauri » Fri Jan 1, 2021 7:22 pm

Wonder if Sacramento would still be interested in Lavine. Lavine and Carter for Bagley,Haliburton and Corey Joseph as salary filler.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#246 » by erasmusmrr » Fri Jan 1, 2021 8:19 pm

Percentages-Career
Field Goal Percentage
Devin Booker .449

Zach LaVine .447


3-Point Percentage
Devin Booker .353

Zach LaVine .374

Best Season (no game minimum)
Points Per Game
Devin Booker 26.6 (2020)

Zach LaVine 25.5 (2020)


Rebounds Per Game
Devin Booker 4.5 (2018)

Zach LaVine 4.8 (2020)


Assists Per Game
Devin Booker 6.8 (2019)

Zach LaVine 4.5 (2019)


Steals Per Game
Devin Booker 1.4 (2021)

Zach LaVine 1.6 (2021)


Blocks Per Game
Devin Booker 0.4 (2021)

Zach LaVine 0.6 (2021)
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#247 » by Kukoc-Lauri » Sat Jan 2, 2021 8:37 am

My eye test tells me that Booker is superior basketball player to Lavine. Dont want to go too much in stat game, just Booker is basketball player,Lavine is gifted athlete. There is huge difference in that. Kobe is Kobe, Ricky Davis is Ricky Davis, Jaylen Brown is player, Javontee Green is athlete. Who knows, knows.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#248 » by RSP83 » Sat Jan 2, 2021 9:09 am

Zach is a good contract at this point. I'm keeping him unless, he can land us high lottery pick next year.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#249 » by Stratmaster » Sat Jan 2, 2021 3:00 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Stratmaster wrote: Ibelieve Zach was in the top 80 or 90 last season (depending on how you set qualifiers) as far as TS%. Is that how you are measuring efficiency? That is certainly not league average.

Overall league average has been around 56% TS the past couple years, you can just google "league average shooting efficiency" and there's a bunch of different places to see it. My guess is that, if your stat is correct, the players below him tend to take fewer shots/possessions so they're not pushing up the league average that much. (E.g. Harden used thousands of shot possessions last season so his efficient shooting boosts league average much more than lower efficiency guys on his team like Rivers or Tucker.)

Stratmaster wrote: I do not agree he is most valuable as an ISO creator. If the Bulls had a true creator getting players open shots Lavine would still score 25 and would do it at well over .600 TS%.

Hmm, I don't feel like it's at all controversial to say that Lavine's greatest value is being able to volume create iso/DHO shots, hard to see how that's not clear (it's also not a knock on him). But if you want to say that he could play with pretty good creators like e.g. Westbrook or McCollum and manage to up both his volume and efficiency, cool, it'd be a tough thing to argue about productively anyway. I'd just say making that move means you're shifting his trade value from a #1 option on a weak offense to a fully elite offensive player, and I don't think that's a move most other teams are going to make. They're likely going to expect him to be the type of volume iso/DHO creator he's been for a while and probably going to bet on him as maintaining the same efficiency he's had for the past 5 seasons (he's been around 56-57% TS every season since 2016 besides his injury one).

So I agree that he's probably not going to bring back the type of return that you're expecting, and maybe shouldn't be on the block if your vision for the team includes him as a really useful part of the ongoing rebuild.
Your first comment just increases Zach's value and further indicates he is significantly better than league average (higher volume while still being top 90 in the league) If you don't believe my stat, "you can just Google NBA TS% and there's a bunch of different sites that show it". But hey, thanks for the tip.

You said Lavine is most valuable as an ISO scorer. He would be most valuable as the 2nd all star level scorer on a team, and I see nothing in his play that indicates he has to score in ISO. As far as being controversial, no nothing you said is controversial, and neither is anything I have said. Some of yours was just incorrect statistically, and happened to also be the initial basis for your argument.

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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#250 » by Stratmaster » Sat Jan 2, 2021 3:08 pm

erasmusmrr wrote:Percentages-Career
Field Goal Percentage
Devin Booker .449

Zach LaVine .447


3-Point Percentage
Devin Booker .353

Zach LaVine .374

Best Season (no game minimum)
Points Per Game
Devin Booker 26.6 (2020)

Zach LaVine 25.5 (2020)


Rebounds Per Game
Devin Booker 4.5 (2018)

Zach LaVine 4.8 (2020)


Assists Per Game
Devin Booker 6.8 (2019)

Zach LaVine 4.5 (2019)


Steals Per Game
Devin Booker 1.4 (2021)

Zach LaVine 1.6 (2021)


Blocks Per Game
Devin Booker 0.4 (2021)

Zach LaVine 0.6 (2021)
I am trying to understand your point. Booker is making 131 mil over the next 4 seasons. Basically between your posts and others responding to your post, they look on paper to be the same player, except Zach is a better shooter and more athletic.

Are you arguing for Zach getting 33 mil a year or against it

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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#251 » by erasmusmrr » Sat Jan 2, 2021 3:49 pm

I'm asking, would people give Booker 5/190 if available? Stats aren't a perfect indicator.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#252 » by TheFinishSniper » Sat Jan 2, 2021 3:52 pm

erasmusmrr wrote:I'm asking, would people give Booker 5/190 if available? Stats aren't a perfect indicator.

In normal world hell NO. But giving where NBA is going with contracts sadly yes. 5/190 to Booker is easier to swallow than 15 per year and two 10 per year for 3 at very best average players
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#253 » by ZOMG » Mon Jan 4, 2021 9:44 pm

Zach is shooting .302 from the perimeter at 7.6 3PA.

Ouch.

He's about as good an outside shooter as Wendell Carter right now.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#254 » by nekorajo » Mon Jan 4, 2021 9:53 pm

I'd immediately trade Zach for a younger asset who can effortlessly drop 21 in a quarter. Those kind of guys grow on trees.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#255 » by nekorajo » Mon Jan 4, 2021 10:06 pm

Athletic freaks who train hard in the offseason and show proof of improvement every season are a dime a dozen. Trade him to some sucker for a top 10 pick.

Seriously, you know what easily replacable? Power forwards who don't box out and defend. Entitled, unproven slackers who play with no sense of urgency until its time for a new contract.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#256 » by ZOMG » Mon Jan 4, 2021 10:08 pm

nekorajo wrote:Athletic freaks who train hard in the offseason and show proof of improvement every season are a dime a dozen. Trade him to some sucker for a top 10 pick.

Seriously, you know what easily replacable? Power forwards who don't box out and defend. Entitled, unproven slackers who play with no sense of urgency until its time for a new contract.


Wow.

What did I do now? :o
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#257 » by MisterRoy » Mon Jan 4, 2021 10:16 pm

ZOMG wrote:Zach is shooting .302 from the perimeter at 7.6 3PA.

Ouch.

He's about as good an outside shooter as Wendell Carter right now.

At least we know that will improve.


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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#258 » by erasmusmrr » Tue Jan 5, 2021 10:30 pm

Who would you pay max for? If not Zach, and he will demand it, he needs to be traded.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#259 » by TheSuzerain » Tue Jan 5, 2021 10:42 pm

nekorajo wrote:Athletic freaks who train hard in the offseason and show proof of improvement every season are a dime a dozen. Trade him to some sucker for a top 10 pick.

Seriously, you know what easily replacable? Power forwards who don't box out and defend. Entitled, unproven slackers who play with no sense of urgency until its time for a new contract.

He doesn't really show improvement though. Lavine has seemingly put in the hours in the gym to bring his shot-making ability to the top-level.

But you're not going to learn NBA level defensive instincts or passing/vision by training in the gym in your 7th offseason and beyond. That's pretty well baked in at that point.
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Re: Zach Lavine-trade him now or part of the future? Voting is nearly 50/50. What would you do? 

Post#260 » by WindyCityBorn » Wed Jan 6, 2021 9:29 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
nekorajo wrote:Athletic freaks who train hard in the offseason and show proof of improvement every season are a dime a dozen. Trade him to some sucker for a top 10 pick.

Seriously, you know what easily replacable? Power forwards who don't box out and defend. Entitled, unproven slackers who play with no sense of urgency until its time for a new contract.

He doesn't really show improvement though. Lavine has seemingly put in the hours in the gym to bring his shot-making ability to the top-level.

But you're not going to learn NBA level defensive instincts or passing/vision by training in the gym in your 7th offseason and beyond. That's pretty well baked in at that point.


You are not watching games if you don’t think he has improved defensively. He is not a natural playmaker either, but it is not a complete disaster anymore. He is getting to point where he can do it in a complimentary role. This is not the same player as last season.

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