Rerisen wrote:GimmeDat wrote:I think we saw the 'best' Mirotic, or at least close to it, just not consistently.
He can definitely get better at defense and just general smarts, not using the pump fake so much.
Offensively I would agree even if he plays a bigger role this year, more minutes, he might not actually get the ball as much as last year during that stretch when I think both Rose and Gasol were out.
He just about became the first option late and that probably wont' be the case again.
that ability to pump fake and draw fouls when he could not even hit the broad side of the barn from deep was huge for us. It will likely become deadly when he can even hit 35% of his 3's which i would not be surprised to happen this year. I see Niko as becoming the best overall scoring option on this team in the next 1-2 years unless we get someone better offensively than what we have now-very unlikley.
defensively you underrate Niko severely. Rebounding considered, he might be our best defender at the 4 right now, and last year over the last 3 months. Or you simply over rate taj and Noah, imo. Taj is a below average rebounder at the 4 and poor at the 5 and Noah cant move his feet well enough to guard athletic 4's.
There is this sense on these boards (almost from the twightlight zone) where Gasol is a terrible defender and Niko being maybe not as bad but almost. That is just not even close to reality. We only have 1 elite defender at this point and his name is jimmy butler. he is the only guy that can get crossed up with a 1,2,3, and even a 4 and defend well. Everyone else needs to guard what they are good at guarding, taj and Noah as well. Taj and Noah are more aptly described as borderline plus defenders at this point. Like gasol and Niko, they have weaknesses.
For example Taj and Noah are terrible, just atrocious at guarding big centers that have post up games...even guys like MOzgov and Bogut. And those 2 guys are significant because they are the starting 5's on 2 likely ECF or potentially Finals opponents. Neither Taj nor Naoh can keep them below 60% TS in the post one one during a 7 game series. gasol can, in fact likely below 50% TS. We would be forced to double down off of good 3 point shooters against both teams...same for Duncan and SA. We woudl get killed for doubling down in the post and helping either Noah or taj.
This is a huge strategic starting point(and ending point) for who should start at C all season long as we gear up for the ECF(Mosgov, and if we get lucky Bogut in the Finals, if not Bogut then Duncan. We will need a 5 that will not get demolished in the paint one on one and force us to help. Then of course it would be of great importance during that series is that same player can rebound, and stretch the court on offense to bring shot blockers out of the paint.
That player is gasol and only gasol. No one on this team is even close to having the skills to do all that except gasol. And we need those 4 things...not 3 of them, not 2 of them but all 4. We must be able to guard Bogut, MosGov, and Duncan one on one and keep them below 50-52%TS without doubling down. We must be able to rebound. We must be able to stretch the floor on th eother side. We must get 55%TS or better from the same player and on volume as we do not have 2 players that can get 30 or more on any night...we just dont have that scoring so we need to share the scoring burden.
gasol is our best 5 by large margin at guarding other large 5's that have a post game.
gasol is our best rebounder by decent margin.
Taj and Noah have strength and weakesses as defenders.
Taj and Taj is out best help defender at the 4.
Noah is our best help defender at the 5.
Niko is our best one on one defender of stretch 4's out on the wing and by pretty good margin, as I've seen 3 after 3 after 3 given by Noah and Taj through the years as well as both giving up easy(back-to-the-basket) baskets under the rim. Niko has the ability to stay both long and strong in the paint (at least against a typical 4) where Taj and Noah are always crouching and attempting to time post players via jumping-thats just poor technique for even wilt chamberlain. You dont defend the post well that way. INstead you stay long, and strong so you dont get back down. You use your hands down low to get blocks and steals down low...but you gotta have strong hands for that and and quick mind...something Niko has and Noah and taj do not. Niko only had trouble with the schemes at first and then familiarity-getting to know the league and opposing players tendencies but once he locked in on a guy...got him on the radar, he defended and rebounded very well against that player. And he is only going to get better.
But all 4 of Taj, Noah, Gasol, and Niko have weaknesses defensively. Noah while a good defender only at the 5 and mostly as a help defender(pick and roll) he is a weak post defender and not very good if switched up onto a 3 or 4. What made Noah "good" or DPOY was playoff type "EFFORT" on a random tuesday night against charlotte. Sure he "earned" the DPOY but he was never a ben Wallace type defender. Nor Prime Dwight Howard. never. Not in his wildest dreams could he take on the best 5 in the league in the playoffs and shut him down while also being a menace shot blocking machine against the entire squad instilling fear. Noah never instilled no fear in anyone. Not once. That DPOY he won has a few people on here fooled into thinking he is that kind fo defender and he isn't.
In fact what made Noah so good was Taj, and what made Taj so good was Noah. they are both HELP DEFENDERS. in that they both are on the same age with each other...have great chemistry with each other, and therefore help each other and others really
really well by virtue of effort and energy and therefore look or appear better statistically defensively than their individual defensive talent would
never suggest that they would be all-nba type defenders and
NOT by large margin.
What helped them even more was they always had Luol Deng on the court with them with a Bogans, Hinrich, Thabo, Asik, brewer, butler, etc. Heck we even had the actual ben wallace for a couple years. And we had all out defensive minded coaches going back to skiles. Good x's n o's, with elite effort, and everyone tied in together made many poster on here feel like Noah is some defensive monster that he just isn't. he just is NOT that guy. I wish he was a prime wallace or prime, Howard, Or Prime Duncan...even Duncan of right now but he isn't. he is a 6-11, lanky, uncoordinated, high intensity, high effort guy that has a bad wheel which is going to severely affect just how much we can get out of his effort and intensity.
Taj imo opinion is a much better all around defender than Noah. But Taj is also somewhat robotic defensively. Taj falls for pump fakes, he is always trying to block shots which sometimes puts him out of good rebounding position, so he gives up Orebounds. He also squats down when guarding the post...getting ready to jump for a block. again, instead of staying long and strong, denying deeper post position. Noah and taj are your classic decent talent maximized by high energy type of defenders. Taj is a gifted athlete and not uncoordinated so that helps. He has a great second and third leap which makes up a little for his falling for pump fakes and his high jumping ability and long arms help him to rebound even when out of position from attempting to block shots. You add it all up and you have a good help defender. Like Noah, Not a game changer at all, especially during the playoffs where he kind of easily becomes invisable. Niko does not defend like this as he is more floor bound in the post...like Gasol. So they deny post scoreres better. Then of course Niko has the better instincts guarding stretch 4's out on the wing.
If both taj and Noah had any type of decent offensive game whatsoever this would be a no brainer as they have great defensive chemistry (together) and both are great help defenders-so they together can run an elite defensive unit(when playing together)-we do know this...but combined as a duo, they are nearly inept on offense...Noah is borderline and NBDL player(or worse) on offense. And taj's offense is that of about an 10th or 11th man offensively. Both with zero ability to stretch the floor, even to 12 feet. So it just doesn't work playing them together...and thats where the great defense comes from...when they are on the court together.
Even Thibs, the defense first coach, played Gasol 35 mpg. he knows that Gasol though not elite overall has great strengths as a defender and is elite offensively. Thibs scheme just did a poor job of hiding gasol's only weakness(pick and roll defense).
BTW, I'd like to see gasol vines against Milwaukee and cleveland before he strained the hammy because Gasol is not an effort is his talent kind of player. Gasol is a talent
is his talent kind of player versus a playoff effort during the regular season is his talent. He is no Kenneth Faried type like Taj is nor an Andres Nocioni type like Noah. So Gasol at 35 years old and playing in b2b is more likely to take a play off here and there in the regular to catch his breath and he knows he is being counted on to drop 20 on good efficiency on the other end. A 20ppg scorer needs his legs to keep his efficiency up. I truly wonder how the vines and stats look defensively with Noah, taj, Niko, and gasol in all of thes epick and rolls during the actual playoffs.
And thats really it. This nonsense that we have elite(ly) talented defenders on this roster(jimmy aside) should really be put to bed. We had and highly ranked defense during the regular season for the last 6 years was because of playoff
effort and chemistry and by having 5-7 plus defenders on the roster. Noah and Taj's reputations as defenders were greatly enhanced by having hinrich, deng, and jimmy on the floor with them for many of those minutes. The contingency of posters that think Noah did that all by himself need to understand how flawed that is and understand that losing multople plus defenders is likely why we dipped to around 10th last year...we no longer have multiple playoff effort (during the regular season) type plus defenders around Noah. We didn't dip because of Gasol...you give Gasol, prime, hinrich, Brewer, Deng and Bogan and we still likely have the #1 or 2 defense in the league. And probably get to the ECF in those sans Rose years.
In short, noah's game was a successful regular season gimmick. We've got the real thing now at the 5 and we just need to scheme better for it, seal the lanes better on the perimeter. Taj is not that much better a defender at the 4 than Niko is better on offense. With Niko there is a net gain just in a vacuum in Taj vs. Niko. As a whole, Butler, Rose, and perhaps snell will be better offer with both Gasol and Niko stretching the floor. The real issue imo is making Rose play actual NBA acceptable defense. Rose must be accountable for his defense and then not shot jack on offense. That happens and we are looking at top 8 (or better) defense, top 3 offense. I think we will get no better net gain in any other combination.
As I've stated before, Noah and Taj run a completely different defense oriented 2nd unit that just pummels teams defensively with hinrich, doug, and Moore. Thats our best plan.
