Building around Coby-Giddey-Matas

[Chi town]

Up until recently my thought for next year was to add a PF the likes of John Collins to put Patrick at the SF and see if he can flourish at that position. For the foreseeable future Williams seems most suited to come off the bench to be the defensive anchor of that group and he gets more shots than as a starter.

But I've changed my thinking. Looking at Williams coming off the bench and Matas with a summer of weights being a stronger PF I'm leaning towards looking for a SF to start. There are certainly more SF's to be found as wings are the preferred draft pick of most teams. The summer should see Vucevic traded along with an expiring Dosunmu and Carter and maybe there's some way those deals bring back a SF.

I think a prime target should be RJ Barrett. TOR has Ingram, Quickly and Bares coming up with long large contracts, Poeltl with a couple of more years at $19M. Moving Barrett would get them on a path to flexibility. If they intend to keep Dick and play him they can move Barrett for somebody lower priced or a shorter contract for when the next guy steps up to get paid.

Barrett can score the basketball, he doesn't seem afraid to pass the ball withing the offense and as we've seen of later that works for this Bulls rotation. He's not maligned on defense, I like that he's left handed because it throws some defenders off and the Bulls don't have a lefty.

Giddey is our 3. Buz our 4. Billy will always play two guards next to Giddey.

Our greatest needs to build well around our core 3

- Defensive C and lob threat… that will do for the defense what Giddey has done for the offense

- Shooting. Can never have enough

- Bucket off the bench that can get their own shot

- Lockdown wind defender

RJ is none of the above. Awful fit. Would only trade for him with Pat’s contract.

[sco]

Up until recently my thought for next year was to add a PF the likes of John Collins to put Patrick at the SF and see if he can flourish at that position. For the foreseeable future Williams seems most suited to come off the bench to be the defensive anchor of that group and he gets more shots than as a starter.

But I've changed my thinking. Looking at Williams coming off the bench and Matas with a summer of weights being a stronger PF I'm leaning towards looking for a SF to start. There are certainly more SF's to be found as wings are the preferred draft pick of most teams. The summer should see Vucevic traded along with an expiring Dosunmu and Carter and maybe there's some way those deals bring back a SF.

I think a prime target should be RJ Barrett. TOR has Ingram, Quickly and Bares coming up with long large contracts, Poeltl with a couple of more years at $19M. Moving Barrett would get them on a path to flexibility. If they intend to keep Dick and play him they can move Barrett for somebody lower priced or a shorter contract for when the next guy steps up to get paid.

Barrett can score the basketball, he doesn't seem afraid to pass the ball withing the offense and as we've seen of later that works for this Bulls rotation. He's not maligned on defense, I like that he's left handed because it throws some defenders off and the Bulls don't have a lefty.

I feel like he's highly valued on TOR because he's Canadian. He's a good player, but IMO we really need an elite point-of-attack guy and a elite shot-blocker/defender at C.

[bullskokie]

I would try Zion Williamson for Vuc, Pat and 1st pick. Then use Collins, Jevon expiring contracts to get late first. Hoping to draft that Duke center. Starting of Giddey, White, Buzelis, Zion and Smith.

[PJSteven22]

I wonder if we could nab Bruce Brown. He's the sort of guy who would really work well with our trio. IIRC he's a UFA. The other guy that intrigues me is Herb Jones, also from Pels. If they are rebuilding, maybe we could nab him for the POR pick + filler.

We need a shut down defender. Love Jones but he will be paid. I like those older cheaper vets that have some savvy like Brown though.

Why want older guys to pair with guys in their early 20s?

Because they’re vets and they’ve played in big games before.

[pipfan]

I would try Zion Williamson for Vuc, Pat and 1st pick. Then use Collins, Jevon expiring contracts to get late first. Hoping to draft that Duke center. Starting of Giddey, White, Buzelis, Zion and Smith.

Not enough for Zion-Vuc/PWill/#12/Port pick/2027 1st (top 4 protected)
I think NO would do it if they got Flagg-other than that, they will keep him

[DASMACKDOWN]

Giddey is our 3. Buz our 4. Billy will always play two guards next to Giddey.

I will take it a step further, under Billy Donovan, there are no traditional set positions other than center.

People may try and put labels on it to try and give identifiers but it's basically ambiguous.

The role is more important.

Billy has been proven to completely ignore traditional size. Can you play your role. that is how he looks at it. It's how Caruso. Javonte Green or DJJ can be considered PFs and Cs on our team. Even though they clearly are not from a traditional sense.

So you basically have to treat most of the roster as "wing" players. Billy's philosophy especially this year, is 4 wing players and a center.

[Ice Man]

Billy's philosophy especially this year, is 4 wing players and a center.

Yeah, about half the league is doing that these days. The traditional PF position is in the process of being replaced by a big wing, and there's been a move as well toward larger PGs. We're one player away from Pat Riley's musing of 30 years ago that the ideal team might consist of 5 guys like Magic, 6' 8" players who could all run, dribble, pass, score, and rebound.

[dougthonus]

Billy's philosophy especially this year, is 4 wing players and a center.

Yeah, about half the league is doing that these days. The traditional PF position is in the process of being replaced by a big wing, and there's been a move as well toward larger PGs. We're one player away from Pat Riley's musing of 30 years ago that the ideal team might consist of 5 guys like Magic, 6' 8" players who could all run, dribble, pass, score, and rebound.

I believe Don Nelson was most famous for this and building teams this way.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2022/10/25/23420549/spaced-out-mike-prada-excerpt-basketball-positional-revolution

Friedman predicted that one team would emerge that season to disrupt the game’s positional structure. He was wrong about the specific team, but right on the point itself.

That team was the “We Believe” Golden State Warriors. Their peak was brief. Their divorce was messy. But the game is still feeling the ripple effects of their run today.

They were the culmination of Don Nelson’s three-decade war against the game’s five-position structure.

[League Circles]

Giddey is our 3. Buz our 4. Billy will always play two guards next to Giddey.

I will take it a step further, under Billy Donovan, there are no traditional set positions other than center.

People may try and put labels on it to try and give identifiers but it's basically ambiguous.

The role is more important.

Billy has been proven to completely ignore traditional size. Can you play your role. that is how he looks at it. It's how Caruso. Javonte Green or DJJ can be considered PFs and Cs on our team. Even though they clearly are not from a traditional sense.

So you basically have to treat most of the roster as "wing" players. Billy's philosophy especially this year, is 4 wing players and a center.

This is true, which is why (as always IMO), position only has meaning on the defensive end. Of those 4 "wings", typically the smallest/quickest (Coby, sometimes Ayo or Jones) is our "1", and the "4" (most often Buzelis) is the longest/best at defending larger players and the rim.

[WindyCityBorn]

We need a shut down defender. Love Jones but he will be paid. I like those older cheaper vets that have some savvy like Brown though.

Why want older guys to pair with guys in their early 20s?

Because they’re vets and they’ve played in big games before.

I’m not saying I don’t want any good vets on team. I’m saying rather the key piece(starters) be guys that will still be in their prime 5 years from now.

[CROBulls]

Billy's philosophy especially this year, is 4 wing players and a center.

Yeah, about half the league is doing that these days. The traditional PF position is in the process of being replaced by a big wing, and there's been a move as well toward larger PGs. We're one player away from Pat Riley's musing of 30 years ago that the ideal team might consist of 5 guys like Magic, 6' 8" players who could all run, dribble, pass, score, and rebound.

That's why I want guy like Egor Demin or Carter Bryant Jr. different prospects all together. They fit mold where they fit with this roster and add another player who can play multiple positions.

[PJSteven22]

Why want older guys to pair with guys in their early 20s?

Because they’re vets and they’ve played in big games before.

I’m not saying I don’t want any good vets on team. I’m saying rather the key piece(starters) be guys that will still be in their prime 5 years from now.

How do you think guys like Julian Phillips develop. From solid coaching and good vets.

[WindyCityBorn]

Because they’re vets and they’ve played in big games before.

I’m not saying I don’t want any good vets on team. I’m saying rather the key piece(starters) be guys that will still be in their prime 5 years from now.

How do you think guys like Julian Phillips develop. From solid coaching and good vets.

What does that have to do with bringing vets to START that don’t fit our timeline? We already have a problem with Vuc sucking up minutes that should be going to Collins and Smith. I’d rather not bring in an older wing to do the same thing.

We have no starting quality vet PF to mentor Buzelis and he is developing fine.

I just don’t older guys than won’t be around when our matures contributing to a bunch of wins. I like how it is now where every player of Vuc and Lonzo could realistically still be here and contributing in 2030.

Get some more win now pieces like Caruso when we are actually ready to contend.

[PJSteven22]

Up until recently my thought for next year was to add a PF the likes of John Collins to put Patrick at the SF and see if he can flourish at that position. For the foreseeable future Williams seems most suited to come off the bench to be the defensive anchor of that group and he gets more shots than as a starter.

But I've changed my thinking. Looking at Williams coming off the bench and Matas with a summer of weights being a stronger PF I'm leaning towards looking for a SF to start. There are certainly more SF's to be found as wings are the preferred draft pick of most teams. The summer should see Vucevic traded along with an expiring Dosunmu and Carter and maybe there's some way those deals bring back a SF.

I think a prime target should be RJ Barrett. TOR has Ingram, Quickly and Bares coming up with long large contracts, Poeltl with a couple of more years at $19M. Moving Barrett would get them on a path to flexibility. If they intend to keep Dick and play him they can move Barrett for somebody lower priced or a shorter contract for when the next guy steps up to get paid.

Barrett can score the basketball, he doesn't seem afraid to pass the ball withing the offense and as we've seen of later that works for this Bulls rotation. He's not maligned on defense, I like that he's left handed because it throws some defenders off and the Bulls don't have a lefty.

I’d rather acquire a DJJ type of a Cam Johnson type

[FrodoBaggins]

There's no one way to rebuild; completely bottoming out for the tank doesn't always work. I like how Toronto did it in the 2010s. They had a few solid, promising guys (Lowry, DeMar, Jonas) and tried to win. Continued to find complimentary pieces through the draft, free agency, and with trades. And the Raptors progression went like this:

2013: 34 wins
2014: 48 wins
2015: 49 wins
2016: 56 wins
2017: 51 wins
2018: 59 wins
2019: 58 wins (champs)
2020: 53-19 (60 win pace)

Teams tank for years to get three promising young pieces that fit together, and the Bulls somehow lucked into it. The best part is their style of play is team-oriented, which promotes good vibes, chemistry, and continuity. You have to try to win if you've got a seemingly strong young core, which Chicago appears to have. In 2012-13, DeMar was 23, Kyle was 26, and Jonas was 20.

[PJSteven22]

I’m not saying I don’t want any good vets on team. I’m saying rather the key piece(starters) be guys that will still be in their prime 5 years from now.

How do you think guys like Julian Phillips develop. From solid coaching and good vets.

What does that have to do with bringing vets to START that don’t fit our timeline? We already have a problem with Vuc sucking up minutes that should be going to Collins and Smith. I’d rather not bring in an older wing to do the same thing.

We have no starting quality vet PF to mentor Buzelis and he is developing fine.

I just don’t older guys than won’t be around when our matures contributing to a bunch of wins. I like how it is now where every player of Vuc and Lonzo could realistically still be here and contributing in 2030.

Get some more win now pieces like Caruso when we are actually ready to contend.

I think you’re missing the point. Plus all players aren’t the same. Some players have different needs than others.

[MGB8]

Giddey is our 3. Buz our 4. Billy will always play two guards next to Giddey.

I will take it a step further, under Billy Donovan, there are no traditional set positions other than center.

People may try and put labels on it to try and give identifiers but it's basically ambiguous.

The role is more important.

Billy has been proven to completely ignore traditional size. Can you play your role. that is how he looks at it. It's how Caruso. Javonte Green or DJJ can be considered PFs and Cs on our team. Even though they clearly are not from a traditional sense.

So you basically have to treat most of the roster as "wing" players. Billy's philosophy especially this year, is 4 wing players and a center.

I don’t agree with this at all. Though it may be more a semantic disagreement.

Size has always been related to, but secondary to skillset. Charles Barkley was always a 6’4 PF, for instance. The Bulls ran a 6’2 or 6’3 Kerr or Paxson out there with MJ and Scottie despite the fact that the triangle didn’t use a traditional PG and, to the extent there was one guy running “point” more than others, it was I guess Scottie.

In recent years, the Sixers and Nets tried Ben Simmons at point, and it didn’t work - because, in part due to his size, Simmons lacks the movement skills to be consistently effective at the 1 (and wanting to use him to defend less on the perimeter and more inside also created a need for a smaller guard next to him). Ditto Toronto with Scottie Barnes. Miami had Jimmy running quasi point but kept looking for someone to turn him into the secondary ball handler.

The NBA doesn’t really play many traditional PFs anymore - can’t get way with “two bigs” that often due to “3 points being worth more than 2” and the need to focus more D on the perimeter. But the lack of PFs doesn’t change the fact that there are some things that smaller guys generally due better than larger guys - namely move nimbly around the perimeter and change directions more quickly. That can also benefit them on offense.

So as much as folks say “positionless,” you still need skills associated with the classic positions - albeit the “3>2” era making the perimeter so much more important has caused the large move away from traditional 4s to using a traditional 3 or combo 3/4 at the “4” spot, with a 3 (big wing, small forward) really good 3/4 (forward) or 2/3 (classic wing) at the “3” spot.

What I really see is a move from 5 positions to 4 that lie “in between” the classic 5 spot ions: guards (1/2s), wings (2/3s), forwards (3/4s), and bigs (4/5s). Then the issue is whether is the mix of 1 or 2 or 3 G, 1 or 3 or 3 W, 1 or 2 (or 0) F, and 1 or sometimes 2 p, sometimes 0 bigs.

[sco]

Giddey is our 3. Buz our 4. Billy will always play two guards next to Giddey.

I will take it a step further, under Billy Donovan, there are no traditional set positions other than center.

People may try and put labels on it to try and give identifiers but it's basically ambiguous.

The role is more important.

Billy has been proven to completely ignore traditional size. Can you play your role. that is how he looks at it. It's how Caruso. Javonte Green or DJJ can be considered PFs and Cs on our team. Even though they clearly are not from a traditional sense.

So you basically have to treat most of the roster as "wing" players. Billy's philosophy especially this year, is 4 wing players and a center.

I don’t agree with this at all. Though it may be more a semantic disagreement.

Size has always been related to, but secondary to skillset. Charles Barkley was always a 6’4 PF, for instance. The Bulls ran a 6’2 or 6’3 Kerr or Paxson out there with MJ and Scottie despite the fact that the triangle didn’t use a traditional PG and, to the extent there was one guy running “point” more than others, it was I guess Scottie.

In recent years, the Sixers and Nets tried Ben Simmons at point, and it didn’t work - because, in part due to his size, Simmons lacks the movement skills to be consistently effective at the 1 (and wanting to use him to defend less on the perimeter and more inside also created a need for a smaller guard next to him). Ditto Toronto with Scottie Barnes. Miami had Jimmy running quasi point but kept looking for someone to turn him into the secondary ball handler.

The NBA doesn’t really play many traditional PFs anymore - can’t get way with “two bigs” that often due to “3 points being worth more than 2” and the need to focus more D on the perimeter. But the lack of PFs doesn’t change the fact that there are some things that smaller guys generally due better than larger guys - namely move nimbly around the perimeter and change directions more quickly. That can also benefit them on offense.

So as much as folks say “positionless,” you still need skills associated with the classic positions - albeit the “3>2” era making the perimeter so much more important has caused the large move away from traditional 4s to using a traditional 3 or combo 3/4 at the “4” spot, with a 3 (big wing, small forward) really good 3/4 (forward) or 2/3 (classic wing) at the “3” spot.

What I really see is a move from 5 positions to 4 that lie “in between” the classic 5 spot ions: guards (1/2s), wings (2/3s), forwards (3/4s), and bigs (4/5s). Then the issue is whether is the mix of 1 or 2 or 3 G, 1 or 3 or 3 W, 1 or 2 (or 0) F, and 1 or sometimes 2 p, sometimes 0 bigs.

I'll put a different spin on this. There are pros and cons to Giddey in terms of your roster. On the one hand, you have a guy who is an average defender of 3's and 4's, and you have your primary playmaker and your secondary rebounder. On the other hand, you don't have someone who can defend 1's and 2's. Matas is above average defending 3's and 4's (trending up), so he can guard the better 3 or 4.

You have Coby who is a below average defender of 1's and 2's. So you need another player who is capable of defending opponent's better 1 or 2. Ball can cover 2's at an elite level, probably just average against 1's. Jones is close to elite against 1's, but probably just average against 2's. Ayo is probably just average against both. All 3 guys provide enough offense to punish opponents if they slack off, which is important. Ideally, we can do a consolidation trade and find our version of Derrick White, but I don't see that happening this season.

Getting an elite defensive C who is a capable scorer near the basket will obviously be key, but also unlikely in the offseason.

[wolffy]

One thing clear to me is that Coby really shouldn't be the a primary ball handler in any line up. Jones is 100% gone. That leaves Ayo and Ball. Ball can't be relied on. Ayo is back up tho a very good one.

That leaves PG, gotta have one on defense, is the biggest hole in the squad. I'd still take a star if I see one but minus that it's either PG Or C.

You can always use a wing but that's only if I can't find a starter at at one of those 2 spots.

[ShouldaPaidBG]

One thing clear to me is that Coby really shouldn't be the a primary ball handler in any line up. Jones is 100% gone. That leaves Ayo and Ball. Ball can't be relied on. Ayo is back up tho a very good one.

That leaves PG, gotta have one on defense, is the biggest hole in the squad. I'd still take a star if I see one but minus that it's either PG Or C.

You can always use a wing but that's only if I can't find a starter at at one of those 2 spots.

.......have you heard of Josh Giddey?