Image ImageImage Image

2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

Moderators: HomoSapien, AshyLarrysDiaper, coldfish, Payt10, Ice Man, dougthonus, Michael Jackson, Tommy Udo 6 , kulaz3000, fleet, DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, RedBulls23

Who do you want?

Ball
27
16%
Wiseman
29
18%
Deni
41
25%
Hayes
31
19%
Obi
4
2%
Vassell
14
9%
Okoro
4
2%
Haliburton
7
4%
Onyeka
3
2%
Other
4
2%
 
Total votes: 164

User avatar
Jvaughn
RealGM
Posts: 28,012
And1: 4,604
Joined: May 18, 2009
   

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#321 » by Jvaughn » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:01 am

nomorezorro wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:Just based off the BR trade ideas article. I didn't expect for Lavine to get valued so low on our board though. I half expect people here would trade a late 1st in this draft for him at this point.


the people who are posting good things about brandon clarke like him way way way way more than a late first round pick in a crappy draft!


It's not just the Clarke stuff. It's any conversation that Lavine comes up in. You have a large amount of people that are ready to shed him for a bag of chips. It's like he didn't just finish a 25/5/5 season. He's on a value contract and just finished a much improved season, but this board is always ready to blow it up and tank for a draft pick who most likely won't be half the player Lavine is or clear the books for a FA summer, where we continually strike out.
spearsy23 wrote:Kobe is a low percentage chucker just like Jennings, he's just better at it.


teamCHItown wrote:Now we have threads on what violent felons think of our Bulls. Great. Next up, OJ Simpson's take on a possible Taj Gibson extension.
User avatar
Chicago-Bull-E
RealGM
Posts: 16,231
And1: 7,539
Joined: Jun 27, 2008

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#322 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:13 am

I like Lavine a lot, I think he’s worth a top 6 pick in this draft. I think the same thing of Clarke.

The Bulls should look to add that 1st all star and Lavine should be the 2nd option like he should be, or trade him for draft capital in this year or next years draft (much prefer next year)
KC: Do you still think you're a championship-caliber team?
Gar: I never said that and correct me if I'm wrong
User avatar
DuckIII
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 71,382
And1: 36,702
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Location: On my high horse.
     

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#323 » by DuckIII » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:25 am

I would trade Lavine. There’s really no doubt about that. But when I think about what the Bulls need, trading him as a general proposition does not occur to me as a way to get there.

Also, when I think about what the Bulls need, I don’t think of Brandon Clarke. And I definitely don’t think of trading LaVine for him. Lauri as part of a package maybe.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
MGB8
RealGM
Posts: 18,870
And1: 3,572
Joined: Jul 20, 2001
Location: Philly

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#324 » by MGB8 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:01 pm

MGB8 wrote:Memphis cratered when, due to injury, they downgraded from JJJ to Clarke. Folks here are deluded as to Clarke’s value.


I just want to expand on this. At the end of the year when JJJ was out, the Grizzlies went 6 and 9 without him - both pre and post restart. Now, pre restart, Clarke was out the final few games, too - but you could see the negative trend begin with JJJ being gone - Clarke being in or out didn't have much of an impact. There's a reason that, after 1 start, the Grizz chose to start Tolliver over Clarke in August.

Now, you could point to the fact that the Grizz lost all 3 games in July / August when JJJ was there (and Clarke played, as well) - but those were a 2 point loss to the spurs, an 5 point overtime loss to the desperate Blazers where Dame and CJ put up a combined 62 points and Melo had a throwback 21 points (and JJJ had 33 points, +8 +/-, while Clarke also had a super efficient 21 points in 34 minutes, but only +2 +/-). There was one worse loss - the loss to the Pelicans by 10 - but JJJ had 22 points (+/- of -3) and Clarke had 10 and 8 (+/- of -5) and the real issue in that game was Morant going 5 for 21 including 1/10 from 3, with Kyle Anderson and Dillon Brooks also having bad games.

But back to Clarke - he only started 4 games - so small sample size. But in those games he only shot 29% overall, 0% from 3 (0-3) despite a lesser usage rate than he normally has, with fewer rebounds and fewer assists. He feasts against reserves.

Projecting Clarke with his 12.1/5.9r/1.4a/0.8b/0.6st in 22.4mpg to be some sort of star player, at least at this point, seems to be a bit of stretch - there's a big difference in being a high energy reserve with a versatile skill set and a guy consistently logging start minutes and playing against opponents best players.
User avatar
PlayerUp
Analyst
Posts: 3,628
And1: 1,905
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#325 » by PlayerUp » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:30 pm

wonderboy2 wrote:I would still take Coby over Clarke. Coby arguably was about to have a better season then Clarke if he would’ve continued playing like he did toward the end of the season. Coby is 3 years younger than Clarke also.


Of course you would. Dynamic scorers, shooters, creators, 3-D wings, playmakers are vital to every team. A powerful frontcourt is less superior than a powerful backcourt. That and Coby is far less undeveloped than Clarke.
User avatar
drosereturn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,755
And1: 1,495
Joined: Oct 12, 2018

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#326 » by drosereturn » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:34 pm

cjbulls wrote:
gobullschi wrote:Brandon Clarke is exactly who I expected him to be. He’s an energy big man, with great athleticism, and does all the little things really well. That being said, his ceiling was always a borderline starter because he’s limited offensively and has below average size for the position. He’s fortunate to be playing with one of the best young passing guards in the NBA. Clarke is a nice player to have on your roster but comparing him to LaVine is laughable. They’re completely different players with completely different roles on their teams.

This board still surprises me with how critical y’all are on Zach LaVine. He’s one of the best young scoring guards in the NBA. He might not be that elite two-way player, but let’s not pretend a lot of guards are. (Harden, Mitchell, Booker, Beal)

LaVine would be an all star if the Bulls made the playoffs. It’s not his fault WCJ, OPJ, and Markkanen all can’t stay healthy.


Zach is only 1.5 years older too


Clarke has 1 yr exp while Lavine has 6 tho.
It could be that Clarke is a fast learner like John Collins and become an all star by yr3 when hes already putting up video game efficiencies. Just saying he is an energy big man is just proof you have no idea abt this guy.
Lamelo will be a future superstar Bull. Book it. Lavar for president!
User avatar
drosereturn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,755
And1: 1,495
Joined: Oct 12, 2018

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#327 » by drosereturn » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:39 pm

Jvaughn wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:Just based off the BR trade ideas article. I didn't expect for Lavine to get valued so low on our board though. I half expect people here would trade a late 1st in this draft for him at this point.


the people who are posting good things about brandon clarke like him way way way way more than a late first round pick in a crappy draft!


It's not just the Clarke stuff. It's any conversation that Lavine comes up in. You have a large amount of people that are ready to shed him for a bag of chips. It's like he didn't just finish a 25/5/5 season. He's on a value contract and just finished a much improved season, but this board is always ready to blow it up and tank for a draft pick who most likely won't be half the player Lavine is or clear the books for a FA summer, where we continually strike out.


Lavines only argument is that gaudy 25/5/5 statline but he padded it on the worst team in the NBA where most of the starters were out while Clarke video game efficiencies as a rookie with limited opportunities he didnt really get consistent minutes he should have gotten close to 30 if they werent a playoff level team. Trust me. Clarke has much more value than max Lavine's crippling contract and he has already shown more impact in 20 minutes per game than Lavine's entire career which speaks a lot.
I mean it only takes 1 stupid team (KD) to think he is some superstar so I guess AK can defraud them for a Billy king type deal.
I still remember some saying him having great win share and vorp halfway the season but look what happened after playing more games in the end. To me, he didnt improve at all from last season just like Lauri.
Lamelo will be a future superstar Bull. Book it. Lavar for president!
User avatar
drosereturn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,755
And1: 1,495
Joined: Oct 12, 2018

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#328 » by drosereturn » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:42 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
wonderboy2 wrote:I would still take Coby over Clarke. Coby arguably was about to have a better season then Clarke if he would’ve continued playing like he did toward the end of the season. Coby is 3 years younger than Clarke also.


Of course you would. Dynamic scorers, shooters, creators, 3-D wings, playmakers are vital to every team. A powerful frontcourt is less superior than a powerful backcourt. That and Coby is far less undeveloped than Clarke.


Nope im giving up White and a prime asset if im the gm. theres no way any team think White has more value than Clarke this season.
Everything is speculation on White the moment you say hes better than Clarke.
Lamelo will be a future superstar Bull. Book it. Lavar for president!
kodo
RealGM
Posts: 20,829
And1: 15,251
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Location: Northshore Burbs
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#329 » by kodo » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:21 pm

nomorezorro wrote:(people write over the top effusive praise for brandon clarke) wow some folks on this board really hate zach lavine huh!

This board though Jordan Bell was going to be a star, the love for low skill hustle guys is high in Chicago.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/14/21435542/nba-mock-draft
Sources from multiple front offices believe Golden State’s preference is to draft a wing.


I know most of the board likes Deni for Chicago, KOC at The Ringer is confirming what other writers have been saying for weeks in that GS isn't drafting Wiseman and more likely to draft to Deni.
User avatar
Andi Obst
General Manager
Posts: 9,450
And1: 6,811
Joined: Mar 11, 2013
Location: Germany

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#330 » by Andi Obst » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:25 pm

kodo wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:(people write over the top effusive praise for brandon clarke) wow some folks on this board really hate zach lavine huh!

This board though Jordan Bell was going to be an star, the love for low skill hustle guys is high in Chicago.

Sorry, but if you think Brandon Clarke is a low skill hustle guy you definitely didn't watch him play.



Man, this draft class is so bad that we're now at the point where we discuss a fantasy trade that is certainly never happening.
User avatar
PlayerUp
Analyst
Posts: 3,628
And1: 1,905
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#331 » by PlayerUp » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:15 pm

drosereturn wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
wonderboy2 wrote:I would still take Coby over Clarke. Coby arguably was about to have a better season then Clarke if he would’ve continued playing like he did toward the end of the season. Coby is 3 years younger than Clarke also.


Of course you would. Dynamic scorers, shooters, creators, 3-D wings, playmakers are vital to every team. A powerful frontcourt is less superior than a powerful backcourt. That and Coby is far less undeveloped than Clarke.


Nope im giving up White and a prime asset if im the gm. theres no way any team think White has more value than Clarke this season.
Everything is speculation on White the moment you say hes better than Clarke.


1. Nobody here said White is currently better than Clarke.

2. You're also someone who wants the Bulls to trade Zach Lavine for Russell Westbrook which leads us no where.
User avatar
Leslie Forman
RealGM
Posts: 10,119
And1: 6,304
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Location: 1700 Center Dr, Ames, IA 50011

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#332 » by Leslie Forman » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:22 pm

Why the hell is everyone talking about Brandon Clarke here, am I on a Memphis board?
cjbulls
Analyst
Posts: 3,584
And1: 1,301
Joined: Jun 26, 2018

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#333 » by cjbulls » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:33 pm

Nice article discussing some of the weaknesses for Nesmith and Poku. The others I found a little less enlightening but still interesting.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2908612-2020-nba-drafts-biggest-boom-or-bust-prospects
User avatar
The Force.
Head Coach
Posts: 7,301
And1: 2,190
Joined: May 30, 2008
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#334 » by The Force. » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:33 pm

In his last 9 games Coby averaged 26-4-4 and shot 43% from three.

Small sample size but clearly trending upward. There's no reality where I would take Brandon Clarke over Coby White.
User avatar
Grodoboldo
Analyst
Posts: 3,739
And1: 2,834
Joined: Sep 26, 2010
Location: Sao Paulo
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#335 » by Grodoboldo » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:36 pm

cjbulls wrote:Nice article discussing some of the weaknesses for Nesmith and Poku. The others I found a little less enlightening but still interesting.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2908612-2020-nba-drafts-biggest-boom-or-bust-prospects


Man, I would love a second 1st rounder to get Nesmith. My dream draft involves trading some combination of Markkanen, Young and Sato for a pick to draft him.
Constantly underwhelmed by the Bulls.
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 23,246
And1: 11,120
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#336 » by MrSparkle » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:53 pm

Watching more of Edwards, I think he's the real deal. I can potentially see his NBA 3P shooting being a flop (at least for 2-3 years), but he is a tough dude with speed, and he shows some pass skills. His defensive floor seems high. He gives me more Jimmy Butler, Tony Allen vibes than Wiggins (heard that comparison somewhere), but he's got some legit handles and scoring ability. Wolves are the ideal team to floss in a "this draft sucks" trade-up.

Meanwhile, the more I see of the mid-1st small-guards, the more impressed I am. Between Maxey, Cole, Kira, maybe Nico... atleast one of these guys is going to be a very good starting PG. Maxey seems like Shai.
gobullschi
Veteran
Posts: 2,905
And1: 899
Joined: May 23, 2006

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#337 » by gobullschi » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:38 pm

drosereturn wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
gobullschi wrote:Brandon Clarke is exactly who I expected him to be. He’s an energy big man, with great athleticism, and does all the little things really well. That being said, his ceiling was always a borderline starter because he’s limited offensively and has below average size for the position. He’s fortunate to be playing with one of the best young passing guards in the NBA. Clarke is a nice player to have on your roster but comparing him to LaVine is laughable. They’re completely different players with completely different roles on their teams.

This board still surprises me with how critical y’all are on Zach LaVine. He’s one of the best young scoring guards in the NBA. He might not be that elite two-way player, but let’s not pretend a lot of guards are. (Harden, Mitchell, Booker, Beal)

LaVine would be an all star if the Bulls made the playoffs. It’s not his fault WCJ, OPJ, and Markkanen all can’t stay healthy.


Zach is only 1.5 years older too


Clarke has 1 yr exp while Lavine has 6 tho.
It could be that Clarke is a fast learner like John Collins and become an all star by yr3 when hes already putting up video game efficiencies. Just saying he is an energy big man is just proof you have no idea abt this guy.


IMO, experience doesn’t determine the talent level of an NBA player. Experience is more tied to situational basketball. For example, playoff experience is valuable because defenses clamp down and referees generally allow a more physical game.

Age is a better factor to compare skill level because it’s the amount of time players have to develop their skills. These guys are using what they worked on in the off-season, not what they’ve worked on at practice in between games. They’re more focused on game study and recovery in season.

I don’t mean to take anything away from Brandon Clarke who had a productive rookie season. Your using “energy big man” in my post to make a point but ignored the fact that I identified his limited size/length and shooting as the reason for his low ceiling. Of course his efficiency is solid, which is a testament to him playing within his skill set. The guy scores almost all his baskets on dunks, layups, or shots within 10 feet.
User avatar
Andi Obst
General Manager
Posts: 9,450
And1: 6,811
Joined: Mar 11, 2013
Location: Germany

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#338 » by Andi Obst » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:48 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Watching more of Edwards, I think he's the real deal. I can potentially see his NBA 3P shooting being a flop (at least for 2-3 years), but he is a tough dude with speed, and he shows some pass skills. His defensive floor seems high. He gives me more Jimmy Butler, Tony Allen vibes than Wiggins (heard that comparison somewhere), but he's got some legit handles and scoring ability.



Edwards is really tough to evaluate for me. His body is NBA-ready right away, which is a huge plus, his shot looks good to me from basically everywhere, he at least flashed passing skills and potential as a defender. If he gets that all together, he'll be really good. But then there's the poor shot selection at times, the low IQ plays in general on both ends (definitely disagree on the high defensive floor), the free throw rate which should be waaaaaay higher and I just can't quite get there with him. Maybe I'm just over-thinking him, I certainly hope so because he seems like a good, fun guy, but I don't love him as much as others.
User avatar
Jvaughn
RealGM
Posts: 28,012
And1: 4,604
Joined: May 18, 2009
   

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#339 » by Jvaughn » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:59 pm

drosereturn wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:
the people who are posting good things about brandon clarke like him way way way way more than a late first round pick in a crappy draft!


It's not just the Clarke stuff. It's any conversation that Lavine comes up in. You have a large amount of people that are ready to shed him for a bag of chips. It's like he didn't just finish a 25/5/5 season. He's on a value contract and just finished a much improved season, but this board is always ready to blow it up and tank for a draft pick who most likely won't be half the player Lavine is or clear the books for a FA summer, where we continually strike out.


Lavines only argument is that gaudy 25/5/5 statline but he padded it on the worst team in the NBA where most of the starters were out while Clarke video game efficiencies as a rookie with limited opportunities he didnt really get consistent minutes he should have gotten close to 30 if they werent a playoff level team. Trust me. Clarke has much more value than max Lavine's crippling contract and he has already shown more impact in 20 minutes per game than Lavine's entire career which speaks a lot.
I mean it only takes 1 stupid team (KD) to think he is some superstar so I guess AK can defraud them for a Billy king type deal.
I still remember some saying him having great win share and vorp halfway the season but look what happened after playing more games in the end. To me, he didnt improve at all from last season just like Lauri.


So Lavine is penalized for putting up great numbers (on good percentages) on a bad team that was mainly bad because we had our full starting lineup for less games than I can count on one hand? And Clarke who was on a playoff contender (not because of him) as a 5th option at best is praised for having a solid rookie year?

And in what world is Zach Lavine's bargain contract crippling??? He makes less than $20mil a year. This is what I mean by Zach being criminally undervalued. We're just making up stuff now to be angry about. He had an great season, and while he has some room to grow on the defensive side (mainly off-ball) he's not James Harden over there. I'm sorry, but in a vacuum, I'm taking Lavine 10X out of 10 over a guy who will probably peak at current day Montrezl?
spearsy23 wrote:Kobe is a low percentage chucker just like Jennings, he's just better at it.


teamCHItown wrote:Now we have threads on what violent felons think of our Bulls. Great. Next up, OJ Simpson's take on a possible Taj Gibson extension.
cjbulls
Analyst
Posts: 3,584
And1: 1,301
Joined: Jun 26, 2018

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#340 » by cjbulls » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:02 pm

Grodoboldo wrote:
cjbulls wrote:Nice article discussing some of the weaknesses for Nesmith and Poku. The others I found a little less enlightening but still interesting.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2908612-2020-nba-drafts-biggest-boom-or-bust-prospects


Man, I would love a second 1st rounder to get Nesmith. My dream draft involves trading some combination of Markkanen, Young and Sato for a pick to draft him.


He just seems so limited even if you believe in his shooting.

“He totaled 13 assists in 500 minutes while generating six total points on 16 pick-and-roll possessions. And though he was ridiculous shooting off the catch, Nesmith finished just 13-of-37 on dribble jumpers.”

Return to Chicago Bulls