Lets talk Zach Lavine

[RSP83]

Like some have said, Zach has surpassed my expectations so far this season. I think he should be in all-star considerations. That being said, I'm for trading him if we get a good deal.
- I'm for trying to get another Top 4 pick rather than being in the treadmill.
- 2021 free agent market is dire. If Kawhi extends, Jrue and Oladipo are the top guys. It means that lots of team, rather than sitting idle in the offseason, would rather try to improve now. I think teams like Miami, Denver or Dallas would be willing to give a lot to get him.
- I still don't think he can be a Top 2 player for a contending team.
But that's not against Zach, he's been awesome this year.

I'd try to find another high level player who can play with him. Whenever Zach does his little 2 man game with Wendell, I can't help but thinking how unstoppable it would be if he's paired with a offensively talented big man like KAT. I've mentioned this in the Trade thread, KAT have some possible red flags (the Thibs and Jimmy experience), but I'm thinking maybe he's talented and young enough to take a gamble on and hope for a turn around. He's gone through some rough times with his family situation during this pandemic. Maybe he needs a new scenery, and maybe BD can help him. Zach and KAT was very young when they first team up, maybe more mature version of them deserve another chance.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Best long term is to trade him. His having big numbers, great now it is 2 frp price, expiring as filler and rookie deal/s. Goal is top 5 pick in 21 with our pick and extra 1 rp in late loterry for Zach, with possible future protected first. Zach is not worth 35% of cap in 2022 because as go to guy we are team who pick 7 in draft every single year, no more, no less. Maxey,Thybulle and two picks would done job for me. Danny Green as salary match purpose would net us late first or two seconds. Send Green for Little or Trent to Portland after initial trade or to Toronto for Flynn.

[JohnnyTapwater]

I think Zach has proven that he is a coachable star. You couple that with his work ethic and Zach is going no where for anything under a kings ransom.

[nekorajo]

You don't gamble with talent of his magnitude. You cultivate it. The man is developing into a star right in front of us. Even his peers openly recognize it. And his best years are on the horizon!

[DroseReturnChi]

Like some have said, Zach has surpassed my expectations so far this season. I think he should be in all-star considerations. That being said, I'm for trading him if we get a good deal.
- I'm for trying to get another Top 4 pick rather than being in the treadmill.
- 2021 free agent market is dire. If Kawhi extends, Jrue and Oladipo are the top guys. It means that lots of team, rather than sitting idle in the offseason, would rather try to improve now. I think teams like Miami, Denver or Dallas would be willing to give a lot to get him.
- I still don't think he can be a Top 2 player for a contending team.
But that's not against Zach, he's been awesome this year.

I'd try to find another high level player who can play with him.

If you max Lavine, the chance of finding a better player goes from 50% from to less than 10% mostly due to draft odds and not getting draft assets in return. Pretty sure you can guarantee yourself with two top 5 picks with Lavine/minor asset and since you tank with commander White pretty much get one of suggs/cade. Its way better to gamble with rookie contracts you can just sell them if they suck. Sure you lose top 30 player in Lavine but you buy like at least 3 yrs with not being forced to commit cap to become treadmill. Not to mention it gives more development time to Lauri/White/PW.

It basically come down to Lavine plus mediocre lottery prospect vs Cade and Suggs/Green. Personally, I think players like Lavine/Kemba/Hayward borderline allstars are littered off the streets its better to dump and find a top 10 player.
Butler was really close but the age factor forced to get rid of him. With the two picks, I feel they give you at least 10% chance of a generational prospect each and 50% they become as goodas Lavine I will gamble.

[detlef_schrempf]

We all saw what Jrue Holiday went for.

To suggest that Zach, who is FIVE years younger than Jrue, go for anything less than that haul would be foolish.

I originally was not a huge Zach fan, but he's changed my mind. I always liked him, but not as a max guy. Turns out his current contract is an absolute steal. At 25, you can build around him, and I personally think he's a good fit with Coby and P-Will. We still have him for next year as well. And he's doing this with Wendell/Thad providing minimal help on P&Rs.

[detlef_schrempf]

Like some have said, Zach has surpassed my expectations so far this season. I think he should be in all-star considerations. That being said, I'm for trading him if we get a good deal.
- I'm for trying to get another Top 4 pick rather than being in the treadmill.
- 2021 free agent market is dire. If Kawhi extends, Jrue and Oladipo are the top guys. It means that lots of team, rather than sitting idle in the offseason, would rather try to improve now. I think teams like Miami, Denver or Dallas would be willing to give a lot to get him.
- I still don't think he can be a Top 2 player for a contending team.
But that's not against Zach, he's been awesome this year.

I'd try to find another high level player who can play with him.

If you max Lavine, the chance of finding a better player goes from 50% from to less than 10% mostly due to draft odds and not getting draft assets in return. Pretty sure you can guarantee yourself with two top 5 picks with Lavine/minor asset and since you tank with commander White pretty much get one of suggs/cade. Its way better to gamble with rookie contracts you can just sell them if they suck. Sure you lose top 30 player in Lavine but you buy like at least 3 yrs with not being forced to commit cap to become treadmill. Not to mention it gives more development time to Lauri/White/PW.

It basically come down to Lavine plus mediocre lottery prospect vs Cade and Suggs/Green. Personally, I think players like Lavine/Kemba/Hayward borderline allstars are littered off the streets its better to dump and find a top 10 player.
Butler was really close but the age factor forced to get rid of him. With the two picks, I feel they give you at least 10% chance of a generational prospect each and 50% they become as goodas Lavine I will gamble.

If I'm understanding the cap correctly, we need to fill the max spots next year, and then go over the following offseason to retain Zach. Trading Lauri for somebody else we can extend after filling the cap might make sense, even though I like him. Don't want to fill that cap up next year with Lauri unless he comes back this season and continues what he's started.

[meekrab]

Best long term is to trade him. His having big numbers, great now it is 2 frp price, expiring as filler and rookie deal/s. Goal is top 5 pick in 21 with our pick and extra 1 rp in late loterry for Zach, with possible future protected first. Zach is not worth 35% of cap in 2022 because as go to guy we are team who pick 7 in draft every single year, no more, no less. Maxey,Thybulle and two picks would done job for me. Danny Green as salary match purpose would net us late first or two seconds. Send Green for Little or Trent to Portland after initial trade or to Toronto for Flynn.

This is insane to me. We've just finished a short-handed road trip where we played four western conference playoff teams and lost by a combined 3 points, primarily on the back of Zach leading the offense. If Coby is more consistent or we had our full roster, we probably win 3 out of the four (I'm going to go ahead and assume LeBron finds a way to beat us, because that's what he does.)

Just how long do you want the team to be terrible for?

[weneeda2guard]

It was this same dumb thinking that put us in this situation in the 1st place. Fans continuing to sell tanking and rebuilding as their get out of jail free card whenever the team is not a contender. The hope of landing the best in the draft resonates with them better then the strenuous process of actually building a contender through other means besides being horrible forever until you land a franchise caliber talent destined for future rings which only comes around once every maybe 15 years.

And although franchises have shown us over and over again there is another way to build a contender besides this old archaic tank it til you make it path some still come amongst fans selling this narrow path to success.

This ideology was the leading force behind sending off a legit all star talent in jimmy butler. The concept of just get bad led to us taking a pretty mediocre package back for Jimmy although we might have gotten a jewel with lavine, but other teams have gotten a lot of picks and we actually had to give up our pick to move up and get prospects.

Now the same redundant ideas are floating around here. Once again draft is being sold as the saving grace. We continue to believe top draft picks are destined to us. They are not. In the same sense, perpetual bad luck and lower picks that sit us right outside the spots we need to draft the best players can be there just as well and the past few years of drafting is evidence of this.

Here is an idea. How about we take the guy who dropped 45, 7 and 7 on good efficiency against some of the best defenders in the league, and build a team with him, you know add some other ball handlers , some rebounders, some depth maybe another all star or 2, I mean who knows maybe that can work. I mean it worked for I dont know half the dam league including the nba Champs for the past 5 years or so.

We got lavine coby and Patrick Williams here with a ton of cap space next season. Rather go that route then sending lavine off for some mediocre package on the basis that some fans just don't believe in him. The teams willing to give up a couple of picks will be good teams like the nets who picks just turn into late picks that mean nothing with short nba lives. We also can't keep loading our roster up with 7th pick level players who ultimately more times than not just become role players. Just like with the jimmy butler situation some of us just believe that the next all star talent is right around the corner. You could get rid of lavine and it taken you another 5 years before you land another guy half as good. Just like we shipped off jimmy and years later still haven't gotten a player as good as him. But we don't want to learn from the past. Because of that drug called hope we want to just repeat the same cycle over and over again while watching the rest of the league move on from the tanking model and build organically.

[Stratmaster]

Like some have said, Zach has surpassed my expectations so far this season. I think he should be in all-star considerations. That being said, I'm for trading him if we get a good deal.
- I'm for trying to get another Top 4 pick rather than being in the treadmill.
- 2021 free agent market is dire. If Kawhi extends, Jrue and Oladipo are the top guys. It means that lots of team, rather than sitting idle in the offseason, would rather try to improve now. I think teams like Miami, Denver or Dallas would be willing to give a lot to get him.
- I still don't think he can be a Top 2 player for a contending team.
But that's not against Zach, he's been awesome this year.

I'd try to find another high level player who can play with him.

If you max Lavine, the chance of finding a better player goes from 50% from to less than 10% mostly due to draft odds and not getting draft assets in return. Pretty sure you can guarantee yourself with two top 5 picks with Lavine/minor asset and since you tank with commander White pretty much get one of suggs/cade. Its way better to gamble with rookie contracts you can just sell them if they suck. Sure you lose top 30 player in Lavine but you buy like at least 3 yrs with not being forced to commit cap to become treadmill. Not to mention it gives more development time to Lauri/White/PW.

It basically come down to Lavine plus mediocre lottery prospect vs Cade and Suggs/Green. Personally, I think players like Lavine/Kemba/Hayward borderline allstars are littered off the streets its better to dump and find a top 10 player.
Butler was really close but the age factor forced to get rid of him. With the two picks, I feel they give you at least 10% chance of a generational prospect each and 50% they become as goodas Lavine I will gamble.

Jerry? Is that you? It's OK. You are already rich. You can afford to pay Zach!

Besides, when your draft pick becomes a 75% version of Zach in 4 years you will just have to let him go in order to avoid paying him the max... or pay the max to a guy not nearly as good as Lavine.

At some point, you have to pay to keep your all-star level player...or... you never have one.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Magic beans]

It was this same dumb thinking that put us in this situation in the 1st place. Fans continuing to sell tanking and rebuilding as their get out of jail free card whenever the team is not a contender. The hope of landing the best in the draft resonates with them better then the strenuous process of actually building a contender through other means besides being horrible forever until you land a franchise caliber talent destined for future rings which only comes around once every maybe 15 years.

And although franchises have shown us over and over again there is another way to build a contender besides this old archaic tank it til you make it path some still come amongst fans selling this narrow path to success.

This ideology was the leading force behind sending off a legit all star talent in jimmy butler. The concept of just get bad led to us taking a pretty mediocre package back for Jimmy although we might have gotten a jewel with lavine, but other teams have gotten a lot of picks and we actually had to give up our pick to move up and get prospects.

Now the same redundant ideas are floating around here. Once again draft is being sold as the saving grace. We continue to believe top draft picks are destined to us. They are not. In the same sense, perpetual bad luck and lower picks that sit us right outside the spots we need to draft the best players can be there just as well and the past few years of drafting is evidence of this.

Here is an idea. How about we take the guy who dropped 45, 7 and 7 on good efficiency against some of the best defenders in the league, and build a team with him, you know add some other ball handlers , some rebounders, some depth maybe another all star or 2, I mean who knows maybe that can work. I mean it worked for I dont know half the dam league including the nba Champs for the past 5 years or so.

We got lavine coby and Patrick Williams here with a ton of cap space next season. Rather go that route then sending lavine off for some mediocre package on the basis that some fans just don't believe in him. The teams willing to give up a couple of picks will be good teams like the nets who picks just turn into late picks that mean nothing with short nba lives. We also can't keep loading our roster up with 7th pick level players who ultimately more times than not just become role players. Just like with the jimmy butler situation some of us just believe that the next all star talent is right around the corner. You could get rid of lavine and it taken you another 5 years before you land another guy half as good. Just like we shipped off jimmy and years later still haven't gotten a player as good as him. But we don't want to learn from the past. Because of that drug called hope we want to just repeat the same cycle over and over again while watching the rest of the league move on from the tanking model and build organically.

@weneeda2guard - excellent post!! You the truth man...

[HoopsterJones]

Depends on if the Bulls can re-sign him. If he appears likely to stay, sign him to an extension. If he doesn’t appear likely to stay, then you have to trade him.

I prefer that he stays since he’s currently the Bulls best player by a wide margin.

[aramada]

It was this same dumb thinking that put us in this situation in the 1st place. Fans continuing to sell tanking and rebuilding as their get out of jail free card whenever the team is not a contender. The hope of landing the best in the draft resonates with them better then the strenuous process of actually building a contender through other means besides being horrible forever until you land a franchise caliber talent destined for future rings which only comes around once every maybe 15 years.

And although franchises have shown us over and over again there is another way to build a contender besides this old archaic tank it til you make it path some still come amongst fans selling this narrow path to success.

This ideology was the leading force behind sending off a legit all star talent in jimmy butler. The concept of just get bad led to us taking a pretty mediocre package back for Jimmy although we might have gotten a jewel with lavine, but other teams have gotten a lot of picks and we actually had to give up our pick to move up and get prospects.

Now the same redundant ideas are floating around here. Once again draft is being sold as the saving grace. We continue to believe top draft picks are destined to us. They are not. In the same sense, perpetual bad luck and lower picks that sit us right outside the spots we need to draft the best players can be there just as well and the past few years of drafting is evidence of this.

Here is an idea. How about we take the guy who dropped 45, 7 and 7 on good efficiency against some of the best defenders in the league, and build a team with him, you know add some other ball handlers , some rebounders, some depth maybe another all star or 2, I mean who knows maybe that can work. I mean it worked for I dont know half the dam league including the nba Champs for the past 5 years or so.

We got lavine coby and Patrick Williams here with a ton of cap space next season. Rather go that route then sending lavine off for some mediocre package on the basis that some fans just don't believe in him. The teams willing to give up a couple of picks will be good teams like the nets who picks just turn into late picks that mean nothing with short nba lives. We also can't keep loading our roster up with 7th pick level players who ultimately more times than not just become role players. Just like with the jimmy butler situation some of us just believe that the next all star talent is right around the corner. You could get rid of lavine and it taken you another 5 years before you land another guy half as good. Just like we shipped off jimmy and years later still haven't gotten a player as good as him. But we don't want to learn from the past. Because of that drug called hope we want to just repeat the same cycle over and over again while watching the rest of the league move on from the tanking model and build organically.

I agree with this analysis.
The way I see it, Zach is the only bit of relative certainty we have on this roster - his trajectory is clearly defined, he's still young, and we can work with his strength (scoring, shooting, and improving playmaking) and around his flaws (defensive instincts, effort, and lapses in decisions on both ends). The rest of the roster is full of unknowns: is Porter healthy enough and will he revert to his ways once he gets a new paycheck (probably)? is Coby a PG? Can Williams develop elite offensive skills? Can Lauri become a reliable triple threat? Who is WCJ as an NBA player and can he at least be a dominant interior defender? At this point I can't be convinced of a path for any of these kids to become consistently elite at certain skills like Zach is at scoring.
Does it make sense to trade Zach for another set of unknowns that we would conveniently call "upside"? I think the answer is no - there's a high risk of being bad for a lot longer if we do. Right now AKME can be opportunistic and look to use our assets to find another player with confirmed elite skills that would complement Zach (especially on defense) while keeping a good amount of upside and flexibility

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Nobody wants to give Lavine for free. But realitty is, he is free agent after 21/22 season. There is two question are you willing to pay him 190/5 years, 35% of your salary and even if you are (my offer to Lavine is 100/4 max max, reality 90/4), and is he willing to stay or to sign somewhere as second or third option for 20 mil per season. Our strategy was correct but our execution wasnt. Even with 7 pick we could draft Mitchell,Adebayo,Herro or Shai Gilgeus,Collins,Reddish. Boylen screw us a 1,5 year. White,Lauri,Carter all can be solid if put in right situation to sucseed. Mirotic and Sean Kildraftpick robbed us Doncic or Young (although i am sure GarPax would choose Bagley). 2021 have 3 or 4 hall of fame level talents. Either we need to resign Lavine but in that case we need to found real number one (never did that through fa in history of Bulls), with him acknoweleged that he is second fidlle or trade him to be able to exceute perfect tank for Suggs,Green,Cade with turnover tank commander White. Free agents in 21 are John Collins,Lonzo Ball,Allen,DeRozan. If you have Lavine and one of these guys as two max players you are done as Nba franchise for 10 years. That would be utterly disaster move.

[weneeda2guard]

Nobody wants to give Lavine for free. But realitty is, he is free agent after 21/22 season. There is two question are you willing to pay him 190/5 years, 35% of your salary and even if you are (my offer to Lavine is 100/4 max max, reality 90/4), and is he willing to stay or to sign somewhere as second or third option for 20 mil per season. Our strategy was correct but our execution wasnt. Even with 7 pick we could draft Mitchell,Adebayo,Herro or Shai Gilgeus,Collins,Reddish. Boylen screw us a 1,5 year. White,Lauri,Carter all can be solid if put in right situation to sucseed. Mirotic and Sean Kildraftpick robbed us Doncic or Young (although i am sure GarPax would choose Bagley). 2021 have 3 or 4 hall of fame level talents. Either we need to resign Lavine but in that case we need to found real number one (never did that through fa in history of Bulls), with him acknoweleged that he is second fidlle or trade him to be able to exceute perfect tank for Suggs,Green,Cade with turnover tank commander White. Free agents in 21 are John Collins,Lonzo Ball,Allen,DeRozan. If you have Lavine and one of these guys as two max players you are done as Nba franchise for 10 years. That would be utterly disaster move.

You have lavine for this year and next you try and build something with a guy who can drop 45, 7 and 7 instead of once again selling the draft hope drug because the truth is most of these contending teams have guys on their books making max and a lot of them are not good as lavine. If he earns the max give it to him. If not he has the value that by the trade deadline in 2022 we can still flip him for a asset.

Your next point is exactly why you dont go this route. You can blame who you want for someone "screwing" us out of draft position and certain players but the truth is, that's also the evidence of how unsure this route is. Bulls were playing Sean kildraftpick not lebron James yet he shines a bit and we lose out. In theory or on nba2k you can just press buttons and get some losing but in real life you can't just tell players stop playing hard. This is their nba careers its not on them to be worried about the bulls draft position its on them to perform well so they can keep a nba job. So years before its Sean kildraftpick, morotic etc this time around we can trade lavine and then lauri and Denzel valentine start going crazy because its contract year for them. That is the gamble tanking brings. It is no surety in it but it continues to get sold as if it is.

Not to mention how many years we hear about "best draft in years" "deep draft" and it turns out not being so? Bunch of guys we swear will be franchise changing just so years down the line its 1 or 2 all stars in the draft and the rest role players. We can't keep selling this dream its not a proven course. And alot of the reasons you posted above on how we "got screwed " or still only pieces of evidence how unsure tanking is.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Nobody wants to give Lavine for free. But realitty is, he is free agent after 21/22 season. There is two question are you willing to pay him 190/5 years, 35% of your salary and even if you are (my offer to Lavine is 100/4 max max, reality 90/4), and is he willing to stay or to sign somewhere as second or third option for 20 mil per season. Our strategy was correct but our execution wasnt. Even with 7 pick we could draft Mitchell,Adebayo,Herro or Shai Gilgeus,Collins,Reddish. Boylen screw us a 1,5 year. White,Lauri,Carter all can be solid if put in right situation to sucseed. Mirotic and Sean Kildraftpick robbed us Doncic or Young (although i am sure GarPax would choose Bagley). 2021 have 3 or 4 hall of fame level talents. Either we need to resign Lavine but in that case we need to found real number one (never did that through fa in history of Bulls), with him acknoweleged that he is second fidlle or trade him to be able to exceute perfect tank for Suggs,Green,Cade with turnover tank commander White. Free agents in 21 are John Collins,Lonzo Ball,Allen,DeRozan. If you have Lavine and one of these guys as two max players you are done as Nba franchise for 10 years. That would be utterly disaster move.

You have lavine for this year and next you try and build something with a guy who can drop 45, 7 and 7 instead of once again selling the draft hope drug because the truth is most of these contending teams have guys on their books making max and a lot of them are not good as lavine. If he earns the max give it to him. If not he has the value that by the trade deadline in 2022 we can still flip him for a asset.

Your next point is exactly why you dont go this route. You can blame who you want for someone "screwing" us out of draft position and certain players but the truth is, that's also the evidence of how unsure this route is. Bulls were playing Sean kildraftpick not lebron James yet he shines a bit and we lose out. In theory or on nba2k you can just press buttons and get some losing but in real life you can't just tell players stop playing hard. This is their nba careers its not on them to be worried about the bulls draft position its on them to perform well so they can keep a nba job. So years before its Sean kildraftpick, morotic etc this time around we can trade lavine and then lauri and Denzel valentine start going crazy because its contract year for them. That is the gamble tanking brings. It is no surety in it but it continues to get sold as if it is.

Not to mention how many years we hear about "best draft in years" "deep draft" and it turns out not being so? Bunch of guys we swear will be franchise changing just so years down the line its 1 or 2 all stars in the draft and the rest role players. We can't keep selling this dream its not a proven course. And alot of the reasons you posted above on how we "got screwed " or still only pieces of evidence how unsure tanking is.

You are seriously overrating value of Lavine. He had greenest light and freedom in last 4 years, to be pg,sg to shoot whenever wants and that lead us to excatly zero 30 win seasons and zero playoffs. He is scoring a lot but he is receiving almost excatly the same amount of points or even more at the other end. Morant,Sabonis,Shai led their teams to the playoffs scoring below 20 ppg because their play impacts winning. Tobias Harris led average Clippers team to playoffs in west. Beal with Wall and same running mate Zach have now, OPJ were in ecf few years ago. Oladipo with Young and Bogdanovic were in playoffs and played game 7 vs Lebron and Cavs. Younger players like Tatum,Brown and Smart played 3 ecf in a row. Siakam and Anonuby as same age or younger and cheaper contribute on championship team. Lavine constantly blew up at the end, still is not good defender,rebounder and at best is average facilitator.His vision got better but no where near to elite pg or pointfirwards types. Lavine as third guy for 80/4 sure. Lavine as franchise guy 1-7 pick every single year.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

It's starting to get to the point where it's tricky.

Lavine has exceeded probably everyone's expectations.

1.5 years left on his deal, where he is being underpaid.
Will he ask for the max? Will another team be willing to offer that?

What are teams willing to offer? Something like the Warriors offering Wiggins/Wiseman and the Minnesota pick for Lavine, WCJ, and Thad Young? Sure, you have to look at that. But it will take more than a middle 1st at this point, and finding teams willing to offer more than that gets difficult. Winning teams will want him, and they don't have the assets the Bulls will want.

The best option is to lock him in long term at a reasonable number, something close to what he's making. If you can do that, you can always trade him later, which has more value to other teams because he's locked up.

[jordanwilliams6]

I'm beginning to come around to being all in on Zach as a key part of our future. I still don't think he can be the 'best' player on a championship squad but I don't see why he can't be the number one scorer. He's averaging 28/5/5 on 49/38/88 shooting splits. That's good enough to be a top 5 scorer at this point in the year. I've seen improved playmaking ability and defense this year, and he seems to be playing much smarter. I've seen some very positive clutch moments, as well as some poor ones. He'll have to cut down on his turnovers as well too. Zach has shown improved maturity and a willingness to get better each year, so I'm sure he will continue to improve as he ages.

The important thing is he's still only 25. We potentially have an efficient top 5 scorer on our hands for the next 6-7 years. We need to find players to compliment his game IMO. The perfect partner would be Anthony Davis, who would be the best player but not necessarily the best scorer. He's a really likeable kid, and is someone I could definitely see myself rooting for, for a long time.

[Ice Man]

I have progressed -- or regressed, as Zach critics would have it -- from being firmly opposed to matching Sacramento's offer, to viewing Zach as the essential piece of the team. I don't want him traded unless the trade brings an All Star in his prime, or a #1 draft pick. Since neither is likely to occur, I don't want him traded. And I do want him re-signed in summer 2022.

[BullsFTW]

Right now, LaVine is a legit #2 option for a contending team, and slowly making his way into one of the elites in the league.