GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2

[CaPiTanAK]

Zach needs to take him under his wing over the summer. Pat Will has a balance set of skills and physician abilities to be a two way player at an elite level. This summer and the summer after this will be very important toward his development. You need a Batman and Robin to be a championship contender in this league. IMO, we might have something like that with Lavine and PWill

[DuckIII]

Zach needs to take him under his wing over the summer. Pat Will has a balance set of skills and physician abilities to be a two way player at an elite level. This summer and the summer after this will be very important toward his development. You need a Batman and Robin to be a championship contender in this league. IMO, we might have something like that with Lavine and PWill

I hope they form that type of off-season relationship. Lavine’s work ethic would set a great example plus they need to develop chemistry. As far as I am concerned the future of the franchise is these two players and someone not currently on the roster.

[dougthonus]

Zach needs to take him under his wing over the summer. Pat Will has a balance set of skills and physician abilities to be a two way player at an elite level. This summer and the summer after this will be very important toward his development. You need a Batman and Robin to be a championship contender in this league. IMO, we might have something like that with Lavine and PWill

I think there's no reason to be excited about Pat Williams at all.

Defensively, maybe he's fine, but it feels like every guy he goes up against has a massive night. I mean he's not shutting down anyone or even slowing down anyone. I expect him to get better, but people discussing how good he is defensively have me a bit baffled.

Offensively, he can't create anything on his own, he's got an okay set of skills overall if someone else does some work for him. His slow release on his three means he's pretty limited to catch and shoot open jumpers and nothing else in his game screams stud.

I find it really difficult to see him becoming a second star worthy type player. He looks like a future solid contributor to me. Maybe a Thad Young type in five years. It baffles me why people think he's so much more than that. There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

[DroseReturnChi]

Zach needs to take him under his wing over the summer. Pat Will has a balance set of skills and physician abilities to be a two way player at an elite level. This summer and the summer after this will be very important toward his development. You need a Batman and Robin to be a championship contender in this league. IMO, we might have something like that with Lavine and PWill

I think there's no reason to be excited about Pat Williams at all.

Defensively, maybe he's fine, but it feels like every guy he goes up against has a massive night. I mean he's not shutting down anyone or even slowing down anyone. I expect him to get better, but people discussing how good he is defensively have me a bit baffled.

Offensively, he can't create anything on his own, he's got an okay set of skills overall if someone else does some work for him. His slow release on his three means he's pretty limited to catch and shoot open jumpers and nothing else in his game screams stud.

I find it really difficult to see him becoming a second star worthy type player. He looks like a future solid contributor to me. Maybe a Thad Young type in five years. It baffles me why people think he's so much more than that. There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

yes finally i agree with you but its mostly on Lavine not making Williams comfortable to be a 2nd option.
Two scoring guards is a big no for someone like PW who needs to get set up to be great.

[dougthonus]

yes finally i agree with you but its mostly on Lavine not making Williams comfortable to be a 2nd option.
Two scoring guards is a big no for someone like PW who needs to get set up to be great.

I can't think of any great player that needed someone to set them up to be great.

Zach has shown a pretty great ability to pass over the last month though both in execution and willingness. I don't think there's anything going on with him that makes me think he can't set guys up.

[sco]

Zach needs to take him under his wing over the summer. Pat Will has a balance set of skills and physician abilities to be a two way player at an elite level. This summer and the summer after this will be very important toward his development. You need a Batman and Robin to be a championship contender in this league. IMO, we might have something like that with Lavine and PWill

I think there's no reason to be excited about Pat Williams at all.

Defensively, maybe he's fine, but it feels like every guy he goes up against has a massive night. I mean he's not shutting down anyone or even slowing down anyone. I expect him to get better, but people discussing how good he is defensively have me a bit baffled.

Offensively, he can't create anything on his own, he's got an okay set of skills overall if someone else does some work for him. His slow release on his three means he's pretty limited to catch and shoot open jumpers and nothing else in his game screams stud.

I find it really difficult to see him becoming a second star worthy type player. He looks like a future solid contributor to me. Maybe a Thad Young type in five years. It baffles me why people think he's so much more than that. There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

Agree. I like his skillset, physical attributes and potential, but thus far he's just shown flashes. His biggest problem, IMO is that he doesn't know what he wants to do with the ball when he gets it, and that leads to missed shots and turn-overs. Honestly, as a rookie, especially a young one, that's probably all that's reasonable to expect from him this season. He COULD become great, but he'll need a monster work ethic to get there (like other great players). The NBA is full of rotation players who had the potential to be great that never realized it.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I think there's no reason to be excited about Pat Williams at all.

Defensively, maybe he's fine, but it feels like every guy he goes up against has a massive night. I mean he's not shutting down anyone or even slowing down anyone. I expect him to get better, but people discussing how good he is defensively have me a bit baffled.

Offensively, he can't create anything on his own, he's got an okay set of skills overall if someone else does some work for him. His slow release on his three means he's pretty limited to catch and shoot open jumpers and nothing else in his game screams stud.

I find it really difficult to see him becoming a second star worthy type player. He looks like a future solid contributor to me. Maybe a Thad Young type in five years. It baffles me why people think he's so much more than that. There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

He stands out to me a ton. Mainly because he is 19. Which is probably the biggest factor in all of this.

Unless you have the expectation that the current youngest player in the league is going to come in and instantly show you consistency, proper execution on offense and defense, and be one of the best players, then there is no real argument.

But if not, then you can see why people are excited.

He basically has no true glaring weakness where you say he cant do this or cant do that. There are no size deficiencies, there are no athletic deficiencies. He also projects physically to be a tank down the line.

Now obviously there is a lot of things he can get better at. But that is the beauty of having a guy so young that is an open slate. The biggest issues to me isn't Pat, but our impatience while he develops.

How did you think Giannis looked at 19? Kawhi? Paul George? etc etc Probably looked a lot like Patrick Williams.

You have to give it time.

[Clocian]

Watch on YouTube

[dawhizz]

I don’t know if it’s him or the “plan” for him, but it feels like when he’s with the starters he’s the fifth option, but when he’s with the backups he’s also the fifth option. He’s not adjusting his role to who’s on the floor. He should be taking more shots in general but especially when he’s on the floor with Satoransky and Val. In a weird way, as much as Valentine frustrates me, I wish Pat had his irrational confidence.

[Hold That]

Zach needs to take him under his wing over the summer. Pat Will has a balance set of skills and physician abilities to be a two way player at an elite level. This summer and the summer after this will be very important toward his development. You need a Batman and Robin to be a championship contender in this league. IMO, we might have something like that with Lavine and PWill

I think there's no reason to be excited about Pat Williams at all.

Defensively, maybe he's fine, but it feels like every guy he goes up against has a massive night. I mean he's not shutting down anyone or even slowing down anyone. I expect him to get better, but people discussing how good he is defensively have me a bit baffled.

Offensively, he can't create anything on his own, he's got an okay set of skills overall if someone else does some work for him. His slow release on his three means he's pretty limited to catch and shoot open jumpers and nothing else in his game screams stud.

I find it really difficult to see him becoming a second star worthy type player. He looks like a future solid contributor to me. Maybe a Thad Young type in five years. It baffles me why people think he's so much more than that. There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

Agree. I like his skillset, physical attributes and potential, but thus far he's just shown flashes. His biggest problem, IMO is that he doesn't know what he wants to do with the ball when he gets it, and that leads to missed shots and turn-overs. Honestly, as a rookie, especially a young one, that's probably all that's reasonable to expect from him this season. He COULD become great, but he'll need a monster work ethic to get there (like other great players). The NBA is full of rotation players who had the potential to be great that never realized it.

I feel like it was the same with Anthony Edwards until it was established hes the 2nd option after the injury to first Towns then DLO. I think Pat has one on one moves he could use, but you can tell he doesn’t have confidence in those moves as he does in his midrange pull up. He’s still very timid on trying to get his own, and that lets me know he’s confused on where he is in the Bulls pecking order.

PW hasn’t been THE MAN on his team since high school, and you can tell by how timid he plays but the potential is there to be an alpha on the team. So it’s going to take some time, everything won’t be answered in year one. But there are some reasons to be excited.

[DuckIII]

There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

I definitely understand people being concerned Willy won’t make it big because of passivity, uncertainty, fluctuating defensive awareness and effort, etc.

But it’s bizarre to me to question his physical profile and skill set. Particularly the physical profile. How many small forwards are like him, as a combination of size, speed, strength, hands, leaping, body control, etc? LeBron? Kawhi? Harris (though he isn’t even as explosive)?

Durant is more freakish of course but it’s a different combination. And is Giannis a small forward? Even including them it’s a small list and 3 of those guys are on the short list of the most uniquely outlandish NBA athletes of all time regardless of position.

Willy’s physical upside is rare and elite. Whether he has what’s between the ears to put it all together is a separate question.

[dougthonus]

He stands out to me a ton. Mainly because he is 19. Which is probably the biggest factor in all of this.

There are probably 20 guys who enter the league at that age every year. He isn't doing anything at 19 that stands out as on the path to exceptional.

Unless you have the expectation that the current youngest player in the league is going to come in and instantly show you consistency, proper execution on offense and defense, and be one of the best players, then there is no real argument.

For someone that people throw around as a future star player, I expect him to show me something that projects into an elite skill. Even if it is only athleticism. Pat doesn't have that. Note, I didn't say he was a bust. I used Thad Young, career average / slightly above average starting caliber player as a comparison.

He basically has no true glaring weakness where you say he cant do this or cant do that. There are no size deficiencies, there are no athletic deficiencies. He also projects physically to be a tank down the line.

As a four, that is true. As a three, he might be lacking the first step needed to be consistently good on either end.

Now obviously there is a lot of things he can get better at. But that is the beauty of having a guy so young that is an open slate. The biggest issues to me isn't Pat, but our impatience while he develops.

Again, something you can literally say about anyone who is 19, of which there are 20 guys a year.

How did you think Giannis looked at 19? Kawhi? Paul George? etc etc Probably looked a lot like Patrick Williams.

If Pat Williams had Giannis's body type this wouldn't be a conversation. George and Kawhi were also better athletes, though I think George is a reasonable upside comparison.

You have to give it time.

Of course, I'm not saying to dump him. I'm saying the outlandish expectations of many are highly unlikely. A likely good outcome for him is a Thad Young or Luol Deng type. A very unlikely good outcome is Paul George and an extraordinarily unlikely one is Kawhi Leonard. Bad outcomes are still entirely possible too, but I think he has a pretty high floor, as you said, with some seasoning there is nothing he is completely deficient at.

[TheFinishSniper]

He just plays for now in flow of the game. Bulls really arent asking him to do anything. Except take opportunity or there to score in flow, grab a rebound is he is in position to grab it, or get pocket pass if he gets opportunity to make it. You can say nothing stands out but he stands out enough when he assert himself to get in that position.

This can be both good and bad thing. He doesnt force much anything. Bad thing it will be if he doesnt assert himself enough when Bulls start asking him to be in more prominent role. So he become like Lauri most of time passive passenger. But if that's only of what they ask him then we have a player on our hands. If they start asking him to score and they start run plays for him. And he just does it we have nothing to worry.

That's only issue I have. You, me, us are not sure yet which he is. This is still on coaching staff. Because coaching staff needs to signal and define roles and hierarchy on team. I am sure Pat doesnt want to step out himself without someone asking him to step out. Things like this can sometime break chemistry and atmosphere on a team. I am sure he still feels like new guy on roster who doesnt wanna overstep bounds. But when he gets opportunity to shine he does shine in those small moments

[dougthonus]

There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

I definitely understand people being concerned Willy won’t make it big because of passivity, uncertainty, fluctuating defensive awareness and effort, etc.

But it’s bizarre to me to question his physical profile and skill set. Particularly the physical profile. How many small forwards are like him, as a combination of size, speed, strength, hands, leaping, body control, etc? LeBron? Kawhi? Harris (though he isn’t even as explosive)?

Durant is more freakish of course but it’s a different combination. And is Giannis a small forward? Even including them it’s a small list and 3 of those guys are on the short list of the most uniquely outlandish NBA athletes of all time regardless of position.

Willy’s physical upside is rare and elite. Whether he has what’s between the ears to put it all together is a separate question.

I don't think his physicals are nearly as good as you do. He doesn't have an elite first step relative to SFs on offense or defense. I think after watching him this season that PF will have to be his primary position.

In terms of Bulls comparisons, he doesn't strike me as more athletic than prime James Johnson. Don't see him as more athletic than prime Thad Young. Lots of players in the league have that level of athleticism if you remove the elite offensive skillset with it.

And again, I'm not questioning his physical profile / skill set as a good player. I'm questioning it as an elite player. I won't be surprised at all if he's a versatile 15 point per game scorer that can do a bit of everything and guard three positions with effectiveness. I also think that's a valuable player to have.

I just don't see all-star caliber player as a likely outcome (And by this I mean a guy who regularly makes it or is regularly in the conversation, not a Luol Deng all-star nomination where he sneaks in on an amazing team). I think it's certainly possible, but it would be more of a fringe outcome (less than 10% chance).

[DuckIII]

Did they have a draft combine? Can we actually compare his measurables to those of Thad Young and James Johnson?

Though I will add that James Johnson was/is an exceptional athlete as well. But he never had the size and strength to go with it that Willy has.

Comparing him to ordinary NBA athleticism is so far off the mark to me. His physical profile is rare and elite. The most rare? The most elite? No. But it’s in a very, very small group.

[dougthonus]

Did they have a draft combine? Can we actually compare his measurables to those of Thad Young and James Johnson?

Though I will add that James Johnson was/is an exceptional athlete as well. But he never had the size and strength to go with it that Willy has.

Comparing him to ordinary NBA athleticism is so far off the mark to me. His physical profile is rare and elite. The most rare? The most elite? No. But it’s in a very, very small group.

I don't think they had a real combine. Every since the DX DB went down, it's been really hard to compare numbers too.

I think he's an above average athlete, I didn't mean to imply he was average athletically. I don't think he's way above average though where it becomes a tremendous strength. Like he's probably 65-80% in athleticism for his position or something, but it does depend if he's playing SF or PF. I think he's very athletic for a PF, but undersized, similar to Thad Young in his prime or he's big and a bit slow for SFs, particularly with his lateral quickness defensively.

Again, I think he's a good athlete. I don't think he is a rare or elite athlete where you are thinking "man if he figures out some of these skills he's going to be nuts" like Giannis was or even Tyrus (except Tyrus obviously didn't figure out anything).

[DuckIII]

I’m trying to think back to the end of the Dynasty and the Bulls rookies. Starting with the Brand draft.

I’m doing it off the top of my head so I may overlook someone(s). But the ones who popped athletically are Rose, Tyrus Thomas, Tyson Chandler, James Johnson, and Willy.

Rose is clearly the most athletic relative to his position. He might be the most athletic PG in the history of the NBA.

I’d have Tyrus Thomas second based purely on his speed and leaping, which were bonkers.

Then I’d have Williams third. But it’s subjective. Because he’s probably ahead of Thomas because his physical profile is so much more broadly distributed among all categories.

Then Chandler, then Johnson.

[Macallan]

Zach needs to take him under his wing over the summer. Pat Will has a balance set of skills and physician abilities to be a two way player at an elite level. This summer and the summer after this will be very important toward his development. You need a Batman and Robin to be a championship contender in this league. IMO, we might have something like that with Lavine and PWill

I think there's no reason to be excited about Pat Williams at all.

Defensively, maybe he's fine, but it feels like every guy he goes up against has a massive night. I mean he's not shutting down anyone or even slowing down anyone. I expect him to get better, but people discussing how good he is defensively have me a bit baffled.

Offensively, he can't create anything on his own, he's got an okay set of skills overall if someone else does some work for him. His slow release on his three means he's pretty limited to catch and shoot open jumpers and nothing else in his game screams stud.

I find it really difficult to see him becoming a second star worthy type player. He looks like a future solid contributor to me. Maybe a Thad Young type in five years. It baffles me why people think he's so much more than that. There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

This is where I am too. His lack of dribble/ability to get to the rim/get by anyone and his mechanical slow release 3 point shot are my biggest areas of concern. Yes he's a 19 y/o rookie with no training camp or summer league, but nothing about this kid says "special" to me. Plenty of time to become something, but also way too soon to know if he is a building block of any kind.

[CaPiTanAK]

Here are the reasons I’m very bullish on PWill

19 yo
Above average physician profile
Above average three point stroke
Above average work ethic
Solid ball handling, vision, jumper off the dribble, and defensive awareness

There isn’t a single glaring weakness pertinent that will prevent him from being a star in this league. Pending his work ethic and development, I can see him as a superstar in this league if he improves his game.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I just don't see all-star caliber player as a likely outcome (And by this I mean a guy who regularly makes it or is regularly in the conversation, not a Luol Deng all-star nomination where he sneaks in on an amazing team). I think it's certainly possible, but it would be more of a fringe outcome (less than 10% chance).

That fair, because honestly no one knows. There is no data to back up either opinion. This is why I say lets enjoy the ride.

Im fine with anyone saying he wont be more than he currently is. Im also fine that some think he can be one of the best 3/4 in the league. Again we don't know.

I would challenge anyone, to see what they thought of a player at 19 to know how good they will be. Alot of them would probably be way off.

Zach Lavine was a player that never started for UCLA. All he had was athleticism . Did anyone predict when he was 19, that he would be a 30/5/5 guy at 25? Im sure the answer would be no one.

I keep bringing up the 19 year old thing because that is the one thing that is always a huge factor in the potential growth and time.

Hypothetical, if Hutch were 19 years old, we would feel completely different about him because of the age and growth. But since he is nearly 25 years old, he is already at his physical peak and close to actual peak. So now we dont care.

I completely stand by that Pat looks the same as any of the current top SF/PF at the same age. I have researched it. The only outliers are alltime greats.