Zach LaVine's impending Free Agency

[DxC17]

I think you need to talk to Lavine about what he wants. If he's serious about building a contender, then he should accept less than the super-max (should he be eligible for it).

We are offering Lavine:

1. A winning situation
2. A good market/location (not great but good)
3. Staying "home"
4. As much money as anyone else

Why would he not sign up for that? All of that can be true without offering him a super-max. Snap offering him a super-max would be dumb.

Come on man - Chicago is a world class city bar none, 3rd largest market in the country, and the Bulls are the most recognizable non-soccer sports brand in the world. If we aren't great than what is? Just LA & NYC? Maybe Miami? Toronto is a global city too, but many guys don't want to live in Canada.

Saying Chicago is a good, not great market is a silly take. Don't let GarPax's failures convince you that Chicago is some inherently undesirable market.

Maybe don't fly off the handle when I say we are a good not great market?

Tier 1: LA and Miami and maybe NYC/SF.

We are in tier 2.

Why post things if you don't want other people to reply or react?

I disagree that Chicago is a good, not great, market & we'll leave it at that.

[TheSuzerain]

Come on man - Chicago is a world class city bar none, 3rd largest market in the country, and the Bulls are the most recognizable non-soccer sports brand in the world. If we aren't great than what is? Just LA & NYC? Maybe Miami? Toronto is a global city too, but many guys don't want to live in Canada.

Saying Chicago is a good, not great market is a silly take. Don't let GarPax's failures convince you that Chicago is some inherently undesirable market.

Maybe don't fly off the handle when I say we are a good not great market?

Tier 1: LA and Miami and maybe NYC/SF.

We are in tier 2.

Why post things if you don't want other people to reply or react?

I disagree that Chicago is a good, not great, market & we'll leave it at that.

The winter sucks here. And we don't even have winter activities to make up for it.

Chicago is a world class city for a portion of the year but not the whole year. I live here.

[Bulls2021]

Bumping this to see how everybody is feeling about it. Is Zach still in line to make all-NBA? DeMar has got to be above him right now, especially with those buzzer beaters. I still think they both likely make All-NBA, especially if the Bulls get the #1 seed.

[HoopsterJones]

Bumping this to see how everybody is feeling about it. Is Zach still in line to make all-NBA? DeMar has got to be above him right now, especially with those buzzer beaters. I still think they both likely make All-NBA, especially if the Bulls get the #1 seed.

Regardless if Zach makes All NBA or not, it will take a supermax eligible contract to retain Zach in Chicago IMO. And we should offer it as soon as possible within the rules of free agency.

[Bulls2021]

Bumping this to see how everybody is feeling about it. Is Zach still in line to make all-NBA? DeMar has got to be above him right now, especially with those buzzer beaters. I still think they both likely make All-NBA, especially if the Bulls get the #1 seed.

Regardless if Zach makes All NBA or not, it will take a supermax eligible contract to retain Zach in Chicago IMO. And we should offer it as soon as possible within the rules of free agency.

Him making All-NBA allows him to make more money on his next contract. Zach isn't signing until All-NBA teams are announced. It would be great for the Bulls if he missed out so his max contract wouldn't be as high.

[HoopsterJones]

Bumping this to see how everybody is feeling about it. Is Zach still in line to make all-NBA? DeMar has got to be above him right now, especially with those buzzer beaters. I still think they both likely make All-NBA, especially if the Bulls get the #1 seed.

Regardless if Zach makes All NBA or not, it will take a supermax eligible contract to retain Zach in Chicago IMO. And we should offer it as soon as possible within the rules of free agency.

Him making All-NBA allows him to make more money on his next contract. Zach isn't signing until All-NBA teams are announced. It would be great for the Bulls if he missed out so his max contract wouldn't be as high.

Yes I understand the financials of it. Of course paying Zach less benefits the Bulls salary cap flexibility going forward, but either way the Bulls should offer the maximum contract allowable to Zach.

[gardenofsound]

Bumping this to see how everybody is feeling about it. Is Zach still in line to make all-NBA? DeMar has got to be above him right now, especially with those buzzer beaters. I still think they both likely make All-NBA, especially if the Bulls get the #1 seed.

It's going to be tight...

I think these are the guards in play for all-NBA competing with Zach (26.2/4.1/4.9):
Stephen Curry (27/6/5.3)
Trae Young (28/9.6/4)
James Harden (22/9.7/8.1)
Demar DeRozan (26.4/4.7/5)
Luka Doncic (25/9/8)
Donovan Mitchell (26/5/3.8)
Bradley Beal (24/6.4/4.7)
EDIT: Ja Morant (24.7/6.7/5.7)

There are a few others on the cusp also, but I could see any of the above players having a competing case against LaVine for All-NBA. The saving grace for LaVine as opposed to Young, Beal, and Doncic is that the Bulls have a much better record. But they are the very clear focal points of their teams whereas Zach has Demar arguably playing a more pivotal role.

Point being, there's no guarantee LaVine would be All NBA if the season ended today. And Lillard's health for the rest of the season could also add him in as another All-NBA candidate (I omitted him because his health is in doubt).

[HoopsterJones]

Bumping this to see how everybody is feeling about it. Is Zach still in line to make all-NBA? DeMar has got to be above him right now, especially with those buzzer beaters. I still think they both likely make All-NBA, especially if the Bulls get the #1 seed.

It's going to be tight...

I think these are the guards in play for all-NBA competing with Zach (26.2/4.1/4.9):
Stephen Curry (27/6/5.3)
Trae Young (28/9.6/4)
James Harden (22/9.7/8.1)
Demar DeRozan (26.4/4.7/5)
Luka Doncic (25/9/8)
Donovan Mitchell (26/5/3.8)
Bradley Beal (24/6.4/4.7)

There are a few others on the cusp also, but I could see any of the above players having a competing case against LaVine for All-NBA. The saving grace for LaVine as opposed to Young, Beal, and Doncic is that the Bulls have a much better record. But they are the very clear focal points of their teams whereas Zach has Demar arguably playing a more pivotal role.

Point being, there's no guarantee LaVine would be All NBA if the season ended today. And Lillard's health for the rest of the season could also add him in as another All-NBA candidate (I omitted him because his health is in doubt).

I’d also add Ja Morant to the list to keep an eye on.

[meekrab]

Bumping this to see how everybody is feeling about it. Is Zach still in line to make all-NBA? DeMar has got to be above him right now, especially with those buzzer beaters. I still think they both likely make All-NBA, especially if the Bulls get the #1 seed.

Regardless if Zach makes All NBA or not, it will take a supermax eligible contract to retain Zach in Chicago IMO. And we should offer it as soon as possible within the rules of free agency.

There's no such thing as a "supermax eligible" contract, he either makes an All-NBA team this season and gets 35% of the salary cap or he doesn't and he gets 30%. It's not like a Designated Player extension where you sign it and then you have the final year of your deal to achieve the supermax criteria.

What Zach and the Bulls could negotiate if he fails to make All-NBA is a 2+1 player option to allow Zach to opt out as soon as he could sign for 35% of the raised salary cap in 2025.

[HoopsterJones]

Bumping this to see how everybody is feeling about it. Is Zach still in line to make all-NBA? DeMar has got to be above him right now, especially with those buzzer beaters. I still think they both likely make All-NBA, especially if the Bulls get the #1 seed.

Regardless if Zach makes All NBA or not, it will take a supermax eligible contract to retain Zach in Chicago IMO. And we should offer it as soon as possible within the rules of free agency.

There's no such thing as a "supermax eligible" contract, he either makes an All-NBA team this season and gets 35% of the salary cap or he doesn't and he gets 30%. It's not like a Designated Player extension where you sign it and then you have the final year of your deal to achieve the supermax criteria.

What Zach and the Bulls could negotiate if he fails to make All-NBA is a 2+1 player option to allow Zach to opt out as soon as he could sign for 35% of the raised salary cap in 2025.

Yeah I forget that is only for players coming off their rookie contract. I remember Jayson Tatum missing out on the supermax eligibility because he didn’t make an All NBA team last season.

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/lists/nba-boston-celtics-no-tatum-all-nba-2021/

[Ice Man]

Stephen Curry (27/6/5.3)
Trae Young (28/9.6/4)
James Harden (22/9.7/8.1)
Demar DeRozan (26.4/4.7/5)
Luka Doncic (25/9/8)
Donovan Mitchell (26/5/3.8)
Bradley Beal (24/6.4/4.7)

Yes, it's a tough competition. Viewing this list objectively, Beal is the immediate first person to drop from the list. He has the lowest scoring average of anybody on the list except Harden, but without Harden's assists and rebounds. And his team is meh. After that it's tough. You could make reasonable arguments for any of those guys, plus Ja. If he stays healthy, Jimmy Butler will be in that mix, too.

(Or maybe not, I see that last year's 3rd string All NBA team selected Butler as a forward, even though Butler plays guard for the Heat, with Duncan Robinson being the small forward.)

That said, the odds are good that Zach makes at least the 3rd string team.

[d boy gentleman]

Man, it would be really nice for the Bulls if he somehow didn't make All-NBA, lol. I'm trying to think who can bump him off at this point. Steph Curry and Luka are locks. Trae young, Ja Morant, and CP3 may be ahead of him now. It's a tossup with DeMar.
Voters love giving awards to guys who are on winning teams, especially if their teams made a big improvement record-wise. Id lean towards him making it at this point honestly.

Complete mortal locks barring season ending injuries:
Jokic
Giannis
Durant
Curry
Anthony Davis
Luka

High level of certainty barring injuries:
Paul
Harden
Butler
LeBron
Mitchell

Guys fighting for the last 4 spots, some are currently earning it, some have reputation of the past and would win tie breaks if they turned their seasons around, some have really good teams that probably just warrant a 2nd guy on the list:
DeRozan
Zach
Gobert
Ja
Lillard
Draymond Green
Booker
Ayton
LaMelo
Beal
Trae

Right now, on the Bulls, I'd give DeMar the nod over Zach, and unlikely the Bulls get two. DeMar has been way more clutch at the end of games, is averaging more points, assists, basically same efficiency, much greater PER, slightly better in most advanced box score metrics.

Zach will definitely be in the conversation for a 3rd team, but I think he's probably just outside that range.

With the amount of games he has missed, I doubt AD makes All NBA this year. I think DeMar and Zach do have a chance though

[Ice Man]

I forgot about Chris Paul. He's an interesting case. On the one hand, he's perpetually All NBA/All Star. On the other hand, his stats aren't all that much these days, Phoenix didn't pay a lot to get him (one first round pick and some role players), and when CP3 was discussed on his board 18 months ago, most people hooted and hollered against the idea of getting him. So on the one hand CP3 is one of the league's true superstars, and on the other hand he very much is not.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I forgot about Chris Paul. He's an interesting case. On the one hand, he's perpetually All NBA/All Star. On the other hand, his stats aren't all that much these days, Phoenix didn't pay a lot to get him (one first round pick and some role players), and when CP3 was discussed on his board 18 months ago, most people hooted and hollered against the idea of getting him. So on the one hand CP3 is one of the league's true superstars, and on the other hand he very much is not.

Gonna disagree with that to an extent. He's still averaging 10apg(with only 2.2 turnovers per, nearly a 5:1 assist/turnover ratio) and nearly 2 steals per game. He's also got a higher BPM and WS/48 than either Zack or DeRozan right now(not sure what's going on with Zach and DeMar, their BPMs seem to have dropped in the last 1-2 weeks). And he's doing this at age 36.

[Ice Man]

Gonna disagree with that to an extent. He's still averaging 10apg(with only 2.2 turnovers per, nearly a 5:1 assist/turnover ratio) and nearly 2 steals per game. He's also got a higher BPM and WS/48 than either Zack or DeRozan right now(not sure what's going on with Zach and DeMar, their BPMs seem to have dropped in the last 1-2 weeks). And he's doing this at age 36.

Fair enough. The guy is among the most productive in the league aside from points scored, along with Gobert and Draymond. And now that I look it up, he's 3rd among guards in VORP (counting Butler as a forward). The top 6 being -

Curry
VanFleet (!)
CP3
Trae
Harden
Ja

[sco]

I think you need to talk to Lavine about what he wants. If he's serious about building a contender, then he should accept less than the super-max (should he be eligible for it).

We are offering Lavine:

1. A winning situation
2. A good market/location (not great but good)
3. Staying "home"
4. As much money as anyone else

Why would he not sign up for that? All of that can be true without offering him a super-max. Snap offering him a super-max would be dumb.

Come on man - Chicago is a world class city bar none, 3rd largest market in the country, and the Bulls are the most recognizable non-soccer sports brand in the world. If we aren't great than what is? Just LA & NYC? Maybe Miami? Toronto is a global city too, but many guys don't want to live in Canada.

Saying Chicago is a good, not great market is a silly take. Don't let GarPax's failures convince you that Chicago is some inherently undesirable market.

Maybe don't fly off the handle when I say we are a good not great market?

Tier 1: LA and Miami and maybe NYC/SF.

We are in tier 2.

I agree...moreover the winters are...you know.

The positive from an NBA POV is that flights are a bit shorter as the city is close to central.

I don't think it's fair for FO to ask for a discount if they aren't willing to spend every $ of it AND go into the tax.

[kulaz3000]

Hopefully he will take the hometown discount.

Why should he?

He is in the absolute prime of his career? And he was basically on a bargain contract the last few years as he was ascending to stardom, so as far as he should be concerned, he already has given them a few years of play on a discount.

When it comes to players like him. who many of us Bulls fans doubted he could even become a true all-NBA quality player (myself included), you don't overthink it, you just give him the max, keep him happy, make sure he understands his importance for the franchise and keep moving forward.

He is still only 26, so even if it was a super-dooper MAX, I feel good about it knowing that he is right at the start of his prime. It's the contract after this upcoming one I may need to look deeper into where his health is at, and where the team is at that point, but this upcoming contract extension is the easiest decision ever.

[meekrab]

He is still only 26, so even if it was a super-dooper MAX, I feel good about it knowing that he is right at the start of his prime. It's the contract after this upcoming one I may need to look deeper into where his health is at, and where the team is at that point, but this upcoming contract extension is the easiest decision ever.

Absolutely. If he's willing to take a 5 year max this summer you lock that in without even thinking twice. The new TV deal is coming, the cap is going to go up, 30% or 35% of the current cap will be a bargain contract by year 3 or 4.

[jordanwilliams6]

Hopefully he will take the hometown discount.

Why should he?

He is in the absolute prime of his career? And he was basically on a bargain contract the last few years as he was ascending to stardom, so as far as he should be concerned, he already has given them a few years of play on a discount.

When it comes to players like him. who many of us Bulls fans doubted he could even become a true all-NBA quality player (myself included), you don't overthink it, you just give him the max, keep him happy, make sure he understands his importance for the franchise and keep moving forward.

He is still only 26, so even if it was a super-dooper MAX, I feel good about it knowing that he is right at the start of his prime. It's the contract after this upcoming one I may need to look deeper into where his health is at, and where the team is at that point, but this upcoming contract extension is the easiest decision ever.

Agreed. It’s a ridiculous assertion. Zach is probably the most underpaid star in the league not on a rookie contract. He deserves all the money he can get given his production and the work he has put in to get there.

[Michael Jackson]

Hopefully he will take the hometown discount.

Why should he?

He is in the absolute prime of his career? And he was basically on a bargain contract the last few years as he was ascending to stardom, so as far as he should be concerned, he already has given them a few years of play on a discount.

When it comes to players like him. who many of us Bulls fans doubted he could even become a true all-NBA quality player (myself included), you don't overthink it, you just give him the max, keep him happy, make sure he understands his importance for the franchise and keep moving forward.

He is still only 26, so even if it was a super-dooper MAX, I feel good about it knowing that he is right at the start of his prime. It's the contract after this upcoming one I may need to look deeper into where his health is at, and where the team is at that point, but this upcoming contract extension is the easiest decision ever.

Agreed. It’s a ridiculous assertion. Zach is probably the most underpaid star in the league not on a rookie contract. He deserves all the money he can get given his production and the work he has put in to get there.

Yeah Zach already is on a hometown discount. I mean obviously it would be better if he took less money it would be better for the Bulls but man the dude has earned his money... pay the man his money