OT: Terrorist attacks in Paris

[Ben]

you guys are wasting your time with frivelous banter in this thread. terrorism is not about religion. its not about a way of life. Its not about extinguishing freedom.

Its about money. Oil and therefore money. ISIS is making about 50 million per month "illegally" selling crude oil.

oil from there own home lands...lands that the western world has carved up for its own purposes which have solely been about pillaging the land of all its oil for profit.

Now we can debate who theoretically actually owns lands, or owns water, or owns air rights etc all we want...and its a complex debate.

But the guise of religion in this thread and in the world in general is just folly to bury the lead...just as religion has always been folly to bury the lead.

open your eyes. Follow the money. then follow the oil. Then follow the money back to the oil.

Whenever someone has a neat explanation that purports always to explain any number of complex, interrelated yet also distinct phenomena, be wary. Be very wary. It's fun to have a simple key that gives you a way always to be right when everyone else is being wrong, but fun doesn't = right.

I don't know whether this article by Graeme Wood (from The Atlantic) has been posted here, but if it hasn't, have a look. It'll have to be more than a look, actually, b/c the essay is pretty long. Very informative perspective.

Spoiler alert: it's not just about money.

[SteelerSpartan]

So the French are saying they killed the dude who set it up
http://news.yahoo.com/least-two-die-police-raid-group-planning-paris-011939001--finance.html

Spoiler:

[nrockwaychicago]

This is a slippery slope toward fascism.

Frankly glad that RealGM posters don't make policy decisions.

There's no denying some civil liberties are going to get diminished. However, look at Germany - it's illegal there to talk favorably about the Nazis, it's illegal to use Nazi symbols and it's illegal to deny Nazi atrocities. There is no free speech in Germany when it comes to their Nazi past. Does that make them fascists?

We hold some liberties, such as the right to free speech, sacred, but the reality is that there is always a balance between civil liberties and the safety of society as a whole. When the balance requires it (such as in the deNazification of Germany), you can sometimes limit some civil liberties without becoming a full-blown fascist state.

Monitoring mosques and keeping tabs on Muslims is not the same thing as punishing people for parading a swastika flag or denying the Holocaust's existence. One targets occurrences specifically linked to the Nazis and anti-semitism, the other is casting a wide net on a huge group of people, the overwhelming majority of which has done nothing wrong.

What you're suggesting is more comparable to a store employee following a black guy around a department store.

[ATRAIN53]

You notice how all these 'terrorists' are young men that don't have a kid or a wife and are pretty much drop outs and uneducated losers that are pretty easily influenced? They just want to be part of a group, to belong somewhere.

If this was a real 'holy war' where then are their parents to support their cause? Where is the 'I'm so proud of my son for being a barbaric person and killing unarmed civilians in the name of ISIS!" parent?

There isn't because there is nothing noble about killing unarmed civilians. ISIS is a rinky dink operation but they or some other jihad operation that has willing recruits will always be able to pull of surprise attacks like this unfortunately......

[TheSuzerain]

You notice how all these 'terrorists' are young men that don't have a kid or a wife and are pretty much drop outs and uneducated losers that are pretty easily influenced? They just want to be part of a group, to belong somewhere.

If this was a real 'holy war' where then are their parents to support their cause? Where is the 'I'm so proud of my son for being a barbaric person and killing unarmed civilians in the name of ISIS!" parent?

There isn't because there is nothing noble about killing unarmed civilians. ISIS is a rinky dink operation but they or some other jihad operation that has willing recruits will always be able to pull of surprise attacks like this unfortunately......

Your first sentence is false.

A lot of these guys are educated. Maybe not so much the ones in the Syrian Civil War, but in general extremists/terrorists aren't poor, uneducated people.

For example, I read an article the other day that Engineers seem more likely to become terrorists.

[johnnyvann840]

You notice how all these 'terrorists' are young men that don't have a kid or a wife and are pretty much drop outs and uneducated losers that are pretty easily influenced? They just want to be part of a group, to belong somewhere.

If this was a real 'holy war' where then are their parents to support their cause? Where is the 'I'm so proud of my son for being a barbaric person and killing unarmed civilians in the name of ISIS!" parent?

There isn't because there is nothing noble about killing unarmed civilians. ISIS is a rinky dink operation but they or some other jihad operation that has wiing recruits will always be able to pull of surprise attacks like this unfortunately......

Lot of misinformation. This is a must read if you are to have an opinion on the types of people we are talking about. Anyone who thinks ISIS is rinky dink, or the junior varsity to Al Qaeda or thinks that this is a big money grab or oil grab... or that these are just pawn street thugs who are the core of the organization might want to educate themselves.

I don't know whether this article by Graeme Wood (from The Atlantic) has been posted here, but if it hasn't, have a look. It'll have to be more than a look, actually, b/c the essay is pretty long. Very informative perspective.

[veji1]

You notice how all these 'terrorists' are young men that don't have a kid or a wife and are pretty much drop outs and uneducated losers that are pretty easily influenced? They just want to be part of a group, to belong somewhere.

If this was a real 'holy war' where then are their parents to support their cause? Where is the 'I'm so proud of my son for being a barbaric person and killing unarmed civilians in the name of ISIS!" parent?

There isn't because there is nothing noble about killing unarmed civilians. ISIS is a rinky dink operation but they or some other jihad operation that has willing recruits will always be able to pull of surprise attacks like this unfortunately......

Any form of radical violent extremism, be it religious (like islamism) or political (like anarchists in the late 19th century) uses as its "workforce" many disenfranchised young men who feel like there is no future in the society they live in and are willing to kill and die to bring a radical change.

There is a strong "f*** the system" strand in any form of radical extremism. Clearly if Europe and the Arab world were in an environment of solid economic growth, you wouldn't see many young men join ISIS. Part of the french and belgian terrorists that attacked Paris would be working in Logistics, restaurants, computer stores, etc and on their way to the "middle class" dream of having a house, a nice car, etc...

The fact that ISIS has festered in a climate of economic crisis in Europe hitting particularly hard the 2nd generation immigrants AND in a climate of chaos in the middle east following an economic crisis which then descended into political chaos with the Arab spring, does not mean that there is no ideology nor Weltanschauung behind it all.

[musiqsoulchild]

At Ben's article - by the way SUPERB work by the author. I read the whole thing.


This is my take on things - ideaology needs resources.

So, one can NEVER counter ideologues. That is a faith based thing. I can never control a Westboro pastor, or a Taliban Mullah.

But I can cut off economic routes to them and that is how I can suppress ideological spread.

This has to be done before the ideology achieves critical mass. ISIS is nowhere near critical mass. Critical mass would be akin to normal Christians traveling months to support the Crusade.

ISIS has the same magnetic pull - but not amongst non-ideologue Muslims. It's impossible in today's civilized, educated world to get to critical mass on interpretations of religion alone.

Just take out the money. Slow it down. Bomb supply lines. Keep them contained in a few pockets.

The siege has always worked in Asia. Much like how the blitz always worked in Europe.

[johnnyvann840]

At Ben's article - by the way SUPERB work by the author. I read the whole thing.


This is my take on things - ideaology needs resources.

So, one can NEVER counter ideologues. That is a faith based thing. I can never control a Westboro pastor, or a Taliban Mullah.

But I can cut off economic routes to them and that is how I can suppress ideological spread.

This has to be done before the ideology achieves critical mass. ISIS is nowhere near critical mass. Critical mass would be akin to normal Christians traveling months to support the Crusade.

ISIS has the same magnetic pull - but not amongst non-ideologue Muslims. It's impossible in today's civilized, educated world to get to critical mass on interpretations of religion alone.

Just take out the money. Slow it down. Bomb supply lines. Keep them contained in a few pockets.

The siege has always worked in Asia. Much like how the blitz always worked in Europe.

The article is excellent. I understand your position, however, take a look at the map of their strongholds, and where they are moving. Very strategic and thought out. . they are spread out like arteries all over the land. Containing them in "pockets" means keeping them out of major cities, but we get back to no real countries or borders thing again. It is a mess.

[DarthDiggler69]

You notice how all these 'terrorists' are young men that don't have a kid or a wife and are pretty much drop outs and uneducated losers that are pretty easily influenced? They just want to be part of a group, to belong somewhere.

If this was a real 'holy war' where then are their parents to support their cause? Where is the 'I'm so proud of my son for being a barbaric person and killing unarmed civilians in the name of ISIS!" parent?

There isn't because there is nothing noble about killing unarmed civilians. ISIS is a rinky dink operation but they or some other jihad operation that has willing recruits will always be able to pull of surprise attacks like this unfortunately......

Your first sentence is false.

A lot of these guys are educated. Maybe not so much the ones in the Syrian Civil War, but in general extremists/terrorists aren't poor, uneducated people.

For example, I read an article the other day that Engineers seem more likely to become terrorists.

I don't know I seen hundreds of youtube videos of mostly young male refugee looting stores, throwing stones, yelling Allahu Ackbar, scaring Germans, fighting each other and police and acting like hooligans in Germany. I asked my good friend who lives there if that was true and he said its worse than the videos. He said there are some true refugees that came earlier in 2013-2014 but most of them now are riff raff.

[art_barbie]

you guys are wasting your time with frivelous banter in this thread. terrorism is not about religion. its not about a way of life. Its not about extinguishing freedom.

Its about money. Oil and therefore money. ISIS is making about 50 million per month "illegally" selling crude oil.

oil from there own home lands...lands that the western world has carved up for its own purposes which have solely been about pillaging the land of all its oil for profit.

Now we can debate who theoretically actually owns lands, or owns water, or owns air rights etc all we want...and its a complex debate.

But the guise of religion in this thread and in the world in general is just folly to bury the lead...just as religion has always been folly to bury the lead.

open your eyes. Follow the money. then follow the oil. Then follow the money back to the oil.

Whenever someone has a neat explanation that purports always to explain any number of complex, interrelated yet also distinct phenomena, be wary. Be very wary. It's fun to have a simple key that gives you a way always to be right when everyone else is being wrong, but fun doesn't = right.

I don't know whether this article by Graeme Wood (from The Atlantic) has been posted here, but if it hasn't, have a look. It'll have to be more than a look, actually, b/c the essay is pretty long. Very informative perspective.

Spoiler alert: it's not just about money.

i'm 3 paragraphs in at the first or second mention of Bin laden and I quote, "Bin Laden requested some political concessions like the removal of American Forces in Saudi Arabia."

So my first question is...if in ISIS, Bin laden is revered as the "prophet to the Caliphate" as this article states, that makes Bin laden's objectives (at least mostly?) in line with current ISIS objectives?? I think we can agree on that. So I have to ask...why was it so important to Bin laden that the US withdraw from Sauid Arabia??...which was and still is always will be the most oil producing country in the world per square foot and it aint even close. Why does/did Bin Laden/ISIS want the US out of the region so badly...to make better friends with the saudi's once we're gone? To stabilize the region? Why? We both know why...they want to get their hands on Saudi cash and saudi oil. But if you have a different opinion on why it is so important the the US military leave the region I'd like to hear it.

[TimRobbins]

Monitoring mosques and keeping tabs on Muslims is not the same thing as punishing people for parading a swastika flag or denying the Holocaust's existence. One targets occurrences specifically linked to the Nazis and anti-semitism, the other is casting a wide net on a huge group of people, the overwhelming majority of which has done nothing wrong.

What you're suggesting is more comparable to a store employee following a black guy around a department store.

But that's exactly what they did in Germany after WW2. They didn't target specific occurrences, they monitored schools and gatherings. Pulling the race card is BS. You're are actually comparing the threat of some kid possibly shoplifting and a terrorist killing hundreds of people?

If you want to wipe out an ideology, it takes extreme measures and it takes suspending some civil liberties. The blueprint exists in post WW2.

[Rerisen]

i'm 3 paragraphs in at the first or second mention of Bin laden and I quote, "Bin Laden requested some political concessions like the removal of American Forces in Saudi Arabia."

So my first question is...if in ISIS, Bin laden is revered as the "prophet to the Caliphate" as this article states, that makes Bin laden's objectives (at least mostly?) in line with current ISIS objectives?? I think we can agree on that. So I have to ask...why was it so important to Bin laden that the US withdraw from Sauid Arabia??...which was and still is always will be the most oil producing country in the world per square foot and it aint even close. Why does/did Bin Laden/ISIS want the US out of the region so badly...to make better friends with the saudi's once we're gone? To stabilize the region? Why? We both know why...they want to get their hands on Saudi cash and saudi oil. But if you have a different opinion on why it is so important the the US military leave the region I'd like to hear it.

Bin Laden WAS from Saudia Arabia and his family was one of the wealthiest in the country. He already had his hands on the cash so to speak. He didn't need to go live in a backwater hiding from bombs as a horribly stupid means to get rich, he already was rich. In fact, ticking off the greatest superpower in the world, was probably one of the few things he could do to jeopardize his privilege.

He wanted the US out The Kingdom because its their holy land and 'infidels' in it, were seen as defiling and humiliating. Likewise as the presence of Israel and the issue of Palestine, one his other major themes.

Relatedly, the current leader of ISIS was a bookish religious scholar, who spent a decade living in a room in a mosque. Not some warlord out to live the high life. That's not what you do with your life if you just want wealth.

Why is is so hard to understand that some people are driven by things other than materialism. Ironically, its precisely that materialism that contributes to their despising of the West.

[TimRobbins]

He wanted the US out The Kingdom because its their holy land and 'infidels' in it, were seen as defiling and humiliating. Likewise as the presence of Israel and the issue of Palestine, one his other major themes.

Actually, Bin Laden didn't view Israel as a major cause and he never really mentioned it up until very late in his life. His goal was always to induce an Islamic revolution in the Arab countries. Only after that was accomplished would he deal with Israel. [/quote]

Why is is so hard to understand that some people are driven by things other than materialism. Ironically, its precisely that materialism that contributes to their despising of the West.

The entire idea of the Caliphate is anti-materialism. They reject materialism and live for the next life in heaven.

[Rerisen]

Actually, Bin Laden didn't view Israel as a major cause and he never really mentioned it up until very late in his life. His goal was always to induce an Islamic revolution in the Arab countries. Only after that was accomplished would he deal with Israel.

It's mentioned repeatedly in his 'letter to America'.

[TimRobbins]

Actually, Bin Laden didn't view Israel as a major cause and he never really mentioned it up until very late in his life. His goal was always to induce an Islamic revolution in the Arab countries. Only after that was accomplished would he deal with Israel.

It's mentioned repeatedly in his 'letter to America'.

That's already late in the game. Before that, he was never engaged with Israel/Palestine. It showed up only after he was attacked in Afghanistan.

[art_barbie]

i'm 3 paragraphs in at the first or second mention of Bin laden and I quote, "Bin Laden requested some political concessions like the removal of American Forces in Saudi Arabia."

So my first question is...if in ISIS, Bin laden is revered as the "prophet to the Caliphate" as this article states, that makes Bin laden's objectives (at least mostly?) in line with current ISIS objectives?? I think we can agree on that. So I have to ask...why was it so important to Bin laden that the US withdraw from Sauid Arabia??...which was and still is always will be the most oil producing country in the world per square foot and it aint even close. Why does/did Bin Laden/ISIS want the US out of the region so badly...to make better friends with the saudi's once we're gone? To stabilize the region? Why? We both know why...they want to get their hands on Saudi cash and saudi oil. But if you have a different opinion on why it is so important the the US military leave the region I'd like to hear it.

Bin Laden WAS from Saudia Arabia and his family was one of the wealthiest in the country. He already had his hands on the cash so to speak. He didn't need to go live in a backwater hiding from bombs as a horribly stupid means to get rich, he already was rich. In fact, ticking off the greatest superpower in the world, was probably one of the few things he could do to jeopardize his privilege.

He wanted the US out The Kingdom because its their holy land and 'infidels' in it, were seen as defiling and humiliating. Likewise as the presence of Israel and the issue of Palestine, one his other major themes.

Relatedly, the current leader of ISIS was a bookish religious scholar, who spent a decade living in a room in a mosque. Not some warlord out to live the high life. That's not what you do with your life if you just want wealth.

Why is is so hard to understand that some people are driven by things other than materialism. Ironically, its precisely that materialism that contributes to their despising of the West.

Let me address Bin laden first. By my recollections and readings Bin laden had access to little more than 10-20 million dollars...no drop in the bucket but not massive wealth either...I mean...my old boss had a 34 million dollar yacht and on lake michigan of all places...so id take it but its not enough to brand and market an ideology like ISIS which will require maybe 200 billion(with a B) or more to fund its stated objectives...I've also read that Bin Laden only had "real access" to some thing 6-7 million total of the money had...and I understand that he stood to inherit a few hundred million if he just stayed at home and hung with the homies...so for him...yeah this was not exactly about the money, exactly...But we dont really know about that...What if Bin Laden thought it was stupid for his father and uncles to sell oil so cheaply to the unitied states and other oil consuming nations? What if his entire family secretly despised the US and our involvement and constant medaling in the area. You know he was born with a large enough silver spoon up his ass that he didn't have to care about throwing away 20 million or the potential 200-300 million potential inheritance because he of the leisure class had time to contemplate such leisure ideologies such as getting a wild hair up that same ass and ..."I know!! let's start a revolution!" Eccentiric, wealthy, (crazy) phucks get ideas in their head like this from time to time. it has always happened and it wil continue to happen....what makes Bin laden and his crazy any cooler? And what if Bin laden himself is just a pawn to a secret middle eastern value even of "friendly" middle eastern nations. Bin laden, ISIS, Al-queda, whoever...its all just part of the plan to irritate, and nag, and throw stones at the tanks of the US and other large armed plutocracies in the hopes to get us out?? To rid the ME of all non middle eastern involvement. To GTFO of the middle east? because they do want their oil? and to charge whatever they want for it? Wouldn't you??? And perhaps to bring the rest of the world to its knees? Foolish I know? But this is a somewhat of a foolish region, no?

So Yeah...perhaps on some level i dont disagree with with your and others overall premise...as say their pre-game. Its just that you (not you personally but anyone in this thread that thinks this isn't going to come down to control over the territory and therefore control over the oil and therefore...massive wealth) are not looking at the end game.


Let say ISIS gets what they want...and feel free to add to these stated goals of ISIS:

Stated Goal 1. I read in this article that they want to Kill off all other muslims in the area...why exactly? Oh...because they interpret the koran a slightly different way...and by slight...it could be very very slight difference of interpretation. So off with the other Muslim heads, right? Let's assume ISIS eliminates every other single Muslim on the planet

What does this accomplish??? In your words please. Please tell me what this would accomplish. And when you do please include where most of the rest of the Muslims live and by the millions (feel free to estimate and be brief)...for example you could say the middle east. And then what do these Muslims control or own? As in what would ISIS Muslim gain by killing off all th erest of the world's Muslims? Again you could be brief and say something like 70% of the worlds oil reserves. But really...in your own words. And where would ISIS start to eliminate Muslims by the millions? USA? France? India? Or maybe in their own back yard? Like Saudi Arabia? But really, in your own words. I dont want to write this narrative for you.

Stated Goal 2. Enslave and tax all non muslims like christians. isn't that a bit odd by the way...the non-ISIS muslim die and the christians, jews, orthadox, scientologists, mormans etc. live?? So long as they pay a tax and declare loyalty to the prophet...hmmm (side eyes).

So what the objective of goal #2?? what does this accomplish?? I mean the taxing part i think we all get, right? Money ...collect money right. Money...but then the enslavement part? What do you think they plan to do with all the non-muslim slaves that aren't killed? Because Ive read a little bit about slavery and I'm pretty sure there is going to be some free labor involved and some heavy lifting which will produce some kind of product...which is usually sold...not sure who is going to buy it if the rest of the world is dead or enslaved...But I'm pretty sure Ive seen this movie. So I assume that if ISIS gets it way and makes this all happen then social classes of ISIS will form with their being an elite class and a pretty wealthy class which own manufacturing and then there will be a much larger middle class and lower class of ISIS which will consume said manufactured goods, right?? Hmmmm...yeah I'm pretty damn sure Ive seen this movie about this already happening somewhere and it sure does sound familiar...now of course the churches will be mosques and the words and teaching a little bit different but yeah...you know the saying the more things change the more they sound the same...but truly in your own words...if your vision of ISIS achieve goal #1 and #2, how does this not end up being about money/power and therefore control of the world just like the rich control the world today but are centuries ahead and therefore a tad more sophisticated and nuanced about how they enslave others and basically run sh*t.

[bledredwine]

One of the attacks was at le petite cambodge, a restaurant that I'd frequent near my place in the Paris days. It's crazy to think about.


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You are who I was thinking of earlier.. you are the pianist correct? For some reason I had you confused with pylb.. thought maybe you changed your name cause I knew you were in Paris.

Yeah jv, good memory. I've been back in chi for a few years now and luckily all of my friends are ok. It's weird to see all of the places that I've visited having casualties. It's a tightly knit city.


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[bledredwine]

It's just unfortunate because I remember how much the French hated Arabs+Muslims when I lived there. Even sensible people would make racist remarks because it's still relatively new I'm France. I can't imagine what it must be like now. As a Scottish-Indian hybrid, I was raised Muslim, and grew up with many foreign exchange students. Let me just say that real Muslims are some of the kindest, most accepting people you'll ever meet.


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[art_barbie]

Actually, Bin Laden didn't view Israel as a major cause and he never really mentioned it up until very late in his life. His goal was always to induce an Islamic revolution in the Arab countries. Only after that was accomplished would he deal with Israel.

It's mentioned repeatedly in his 'letter to America'.

That's already late in the game. Before that, he was never engaged with Israel/Palestine. It showed up only after he was attacked in Afghanistan.

it must have take bin laden a few decades or so to realize the Rothshcild's run the world. He certainly wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

By the way do you guys know that your average every day Muslim does not take kindly to paying interest to banks for loans? I believe it is against most forms of Muslim religion. I'm not exactly 100% on this so any practicing Muslims please feel free to clarify this...but my understanding is that usury or "riba" does not conform with the principle of Islam as it is viewed as essentially a form of enslavement by the rich.

for the record I happen to agree with all Muslims on this one and its one thing for sure they got right and the rest of the world has wrong. Modern day banking enslaves us all. Usury is supposed to be outlawed and illegal yet it persists in just about every single banking institution in the world as all loans are front loaded with nearly 90% interest in those first payments. And most car dealerships are charging 5-15% points over prime anyway so it doesn't matter if they front load but they do as well.

those of you that find this thread interesting should become more informed about the practice and "money changing" and the practice of loaning out money with interest. Paying interest is a well documented sin according to Islam...watching this documentary can help you understand why and help you understand more about some of the core beliefs of islam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtiOEpOnqtI