GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2

[fleet]

I think there's no reason to be excited about Pat Williams at all.

Defensively, maybe he's fine, but it feels like every guy he goes up against has a massive night. I mean he's not shutting down anyone or even slowing down anyone. I expect him to get better, but people discussing how good he is defensively have me a bit baffled.

Offensively, he can't create anything on his own, he's got an okay set of skills overall if someone else does some work for him. His slow release on his three means he's pretty limited to catch and shoot open jumpers and nothing else in his game screams stud.

I find it really difficult to see him becoming a second star worthy type player. He looks like a future solid contributor to me. Maybe a Thad Young type in five years. It baffles me why people think he's so much more than that. There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

He stands out to me a ton. Mainly because he is 19. Which is probably the biggest factor in all of this.

Unless you have the expectation that the current youngest player in the league is going to come in and instantly show you consistency, proper execution on offense and defense, and be one of the best players, then there is no real argument.

But if not, then you can see why people are excited.

He basically has no true glaring weakness where you say he cant do this or cant do that. There are no size deficiencies, there are no athletic deficiencies. He also projects physically to be a tank down the line.

Now obviously there is a lot of things he can get better at. But that is the beauty of having a guy so young that is an open slate. The biggest issues to me isn't Pat, but our impatience while he develops.

How did you think Giannis looked at 19? Kawhi? Paul George? etc etc Probably looked a lot like Patrick Williams.

You have to give it time.

I bet there were people shrugging their shoulders at Kawhi his rookie season too. I see the concerns about him as temporary concerns at this point. Pat was comparable to rookie Kawhi or PG13 at a younger age for awhile, although seems to be losing some altitude now. Again, not saying he is Kawhi at all, that's insane to compare a kid to an MVP. I would lean toward saying definitely not as skilled as those guys were as rookies. But there is no reason to be alarmist this early. The Bulls barely let him do anything, which could be for good reasons as we see on turnovers. But he should be able to fill in lots of skills holes over the years. coldfish was saying he wasn't doing anything at FSU like he did in pickup games and with the Bulls at times. While I disagree with some of that, he can learn to do new things. It's all handles right now. Everyone knew he was raw clay. That being said, I hate the way he drives to the hole. It's all reliant on explosion and full speed, few moves and dribbles. Although he has the spin move, which will only carry him only so far when teams play him for that.

[MrSparkle]

I actually missed the half-court buzzer-beater until I saw it on a highlight. Whoa!

[DuckIII]

Zach needs to take him under his wing over the summer. Pat Will has a balance set of skills and physician abilities to be a two way player at an elite level. This summer and the summer after this will be very important toward his development. You need a Batman and Robin to be a championship contender in this league. IMO, we might have something like that with Lavine and PWill

I think there's no reason to be excited about Pat Williams at all.

Defensively, maybe he's fine, but it feels like every guy he goes up against has a massive night. I mean he's not shutting down anyone or even slowing down anyone. I expect him to get better, but people discussing how good he is defensively have me a bit baffled.

Offensively, he can't create anything on his own, he's got an okay set of skills overall if someone else does some work for him. His slow release on his three means he's pretty limited to catch and shoot open jumpers and nothing else in his game screams stud.

I find it really difficult to see him becoming a second star worthy type player. He looks like a future solid contributor to me. Maybe a Thad Young type in five years. It baffles me why people think he's so much more than that. There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

This is where I am too. His lack of dribble/ability to get to the rim/get by anyone and his mechanical slow release 3 point shot are my biggest areas of concern. Yes he's a 19 y/o rookie with no training camp or summer league, but nothing about this kid says "special" to me. Plenty of time to become something, but also way too soon to know if he is a building block of any kind.

I don’t agree with this either. Lack of dribble? Perhaps it’s just the way it’s being stated. He definitely coughs up his dribble way too much and some of the turnovers are just bizarre with how unforced it can be. So I get seeing that and saying “lack of dribble”.

But I wouldn’t call it that. I’d call it an inconsistent dribble. Because he’s also shown a low, tight, quick and creative dribble that goes left, goes right, is fast north/south in the open court, and can maneuver in the half court.

His dribble drive issues, other than the cough ups, to me are more about not knowing what to do with his body and when (more when than what), not his handle.

Hell, the two reasons I went from hating this pick to being all in on Willy as a prospect are: (a) his elite level physical profile; and (b) his surprising handle that goes both ways.

To me when I think “lack of handle” I think more of guys like Deng or Hutch who have stiff, upright ball handling that is not instinctively reactionary. Willy’s handle is nothing like that.

[fleet]

I think there's no reason to be excited about Pat Williams at all.

Defensively, maybe he's fine, but it feels like every guy he goes up against has a massive night. I mean he's not shutting down anyone or even slowing down anyone. I expect him to get better, but people discussing how good he is defensively have me a bit baffled.

Offensively, he can't create anything on his own, he's got an okay set of skills overall if someone else does some work for him. His slow release on his three means he's pretty limited to catch and shoot open jumpers and nothing else in his game screams stud.

I find it really difficult to see him becoming a second star worthy type player. He looks like a future solid contributor to me. Maybe a Thad Young type in five years. It baffles me why people think he's so much more than that. There isn't a single thing about him that stands out as an advantage relative to other players. Not skills, not athleticism, not size.

This is where I am too. His lack of dribble/ability to get to the rim/get by anyone and his mechanical slow release 3 point shot are my biggest areas of concern. Yes he's a 19 y/o rookie with no training camp or summer league, but nothing about this kid says "special" to me. Plenty of time to become something, but also way too soon to know if he is a building block of any kind.

I don’t agree with this either. Lack of dribble? Perhaps it’s just the way it’s being stated. He definitely coughs up his dribble way too much and some of the turnovers are just bizarre with how unforced it can be. So I get seeing that and saying “lack of dribble”.

But I wouldn’t call it that. I’d call it an inconsistent dribble. Because he’s also shown a low, tight, quick and creative dribble that goes left, goes right, is fast north/south in the open court, and can maneuver in the half court.

His dribble drive issues, other than the cough ups, to me are more about not knowing what to do with his body and when (more when than what), not his handle.

Hell, the two reasons I went from hating this pick to being all in on Willy as a prospect are: (a) his elite level physical profile; and (b) his surprising handle that goes both ways.

To me when I think “lack of handle” I think more of guys like Deng or Hutch who have stiff, upright ball handling that is not instinctively reactionary. Willy’s handle is nothing like that.

Many premium players would turn the ball over if they tried to do what he does on his drives. A reason he coughs it up imo is that he usually tries to go from zero to 60 mph in .5 second when he drives. There is not much control, shake and bake to his game. He picks a direct path and tries to win almost exclusively with (one) speed and explosion without a move at the rim. How much he can add as far as being creative going to the hole remains to be seen.

[BullChit]

I would love for the Bulls to reach out to Lt. Deng for some 1on1 lessons with Pat.

Particularly on defence

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

[DuckIII]

Good observation fleet. Here are two other things to consider: (a) with his profile, his best dribble drive move will probably always be a downhill hesitation drive to get the defender on his hip, so he needs to be working on that anyway; and (b) he has shown limited flashes of some pretty excellent half court handles to shake a face up defender. The evidence is there, it’s just an extremely small sample. Which I believe is more the result of his role and mindset than it is his skill set.

[fleet]

He needs a breather. Mostly a summer of work and a training camp. Billy has started him and gives him a lot of minutes, and there is a possibility he might be getting overwhelmed at this pace. Especially with this year's schedule. The chances of him being able to make considerate changes/improvements have to be low. The wall he hit should get higher more than lower. There are other young players doing well, but number 1, all very young players are not on the same development glide path. And It is almost unsurprising to see Saddiq Bey doing his thing now from a maturity standpoint.

To add, the big impression that comes across from what Billy is doing with him is that they recognize he has limitations, and put next to zero responsibility on what they ask of him. Almost as if they only want to just get him to get used to running around on the court next to starters, and they never went past that step. If you ask why they would do something like that with a player, it's encouraging. Maybe not exiting doug, but encouraging. They must think he is going to add a lot some day to invest so much of a platform on him with so little asked for in return.

[dougthonus]

That fair, because honestly no one knows. There is no data to back up either opinion. This is why I say lets enjoy the ride.

I think there is lots of data though. If you looked at Zion or Luka or even LaMelo as an example this year, you'd say "wow these guys are going somewhere". Some guys show it to you pretty much right away. It doesn't mean they are superstars right away, but you can see it.

All I am saying is that Pat lacks that. It's okay to think maybe he'll develop into something great. It might happen. It just isn't my default view of the likely out come.

Im fine with anyone saying he wont be more than he currently is. Im also fine that some think he can be one of the best 3/4 in the league. Again we don't know.

I would challenge anyone, to see what they thought of a player at 19 to know how good they will be. Alot of them would probably be way off.[/quote]

Of course he will be more than he is now. I don't think anyone thinks this is his peak NBA ability. That's not an opinion anyone has is it?

Zach Lavine was a player that never started for UCLA. All he had was athleticism . Did anyone predict when he was 19, that he would be a 30/5/5 guy at 25? Im sure the answer would be no one.

I don't know that anyone predicted stats, but yes, there were lots of people who thought Zach had star potential.

I keep bringing up the 19 year old thing because that is the one thing that is always a huge factor in the potential growth and time.

Again, 20ish guys come into the league at 19 years old, most of them don't become all-stars. It does mean there is a much wider variance in outcome and the outcome is less predictable, but as a causal reason for optimism it isn't much unless you think what he is doing is unusually good for a 19 year old, and relative to other all-stars it isn't unusually good. It's fine, there are definitely stars that had slow starts like him, mostly guys with massive athleticism advantages that I don't think Pat really has, but someone like Jimmy Butler is an example of a good but not elite caliber athlete that grinded until he was a star.

Hypothetical, if Hutch were 19 years old, we would feel completely different about him because of the age and growth. But since he is nearly 25 years old, he is already at his physical peak and close to actual peak. So now we dont care.

Of course.

I completely stand by that Pat looks the same as any of the current top SF/PF at the same age. I have researched it. The only outliers are alltime greats.

And teh typical SF/PF at the same age is not an all-star caliber player.

[dougthonus]

I bet there were people shrugging their shoulders at Kawhi his rookie season too. I see the concerns about him as temporary concerns at this point. Pat was comparable to rookie Kawhi or PG13 at a younger age for awhile, although seems to be losing some altitude now. Again, not saying he is Kawhi at all, that's insane to compare a kid to an MVP. I would lean toward saying definitely not as skilled as those guys were as rookies. But there is no reason to be alarmist this early. The Bulls barely let him do anything, which could be for good reasons as we see on turnovers. But he should be able to fill in lots of skills holes over the years. coldfish was saying he wasn't doing anything at FSU like he did in pickup games and with the Bulls at times. While I disagree with some of that, he can learn to do new things. It's all handles right now. Everyone knew he was raw clay. That being said, I hate the way he drives to the hole. It's all reliant on explosion and full speed, few moves and dribbles. Although he has the spin move, which will only carry him only so far when teams play him for that.

I think there is a difference in saying "Pat Williams probably wont' be a star" and being alarmist. Saying I think he projects out into someone like Thad Young shouldn't be viewed as alarmist. It's a good solid player and someone you will be happy to have.

[fleet]

I bet there were people shrugging their shoulders at Kawhi his rookie season too. I see the concerns about him as temporary concerns at this point. Pat was comparable to rookie Kawhi or PG13 at a younger age for awhile, although seems to be losing some altitude now. Again, not saying he is Kawhi at all, that's insane to compare a kid to an MVP. I would lean toward saying definitely not as skilled as those guys were as rookies. But there is no reason to be alarmist this early. The Bulls barely let him do anything, which could be for good reasons as we see on turnovers. But he should be able to fill in lots of skills holes over the years. coldfish was saying he wasn't doing anything at FSU like he did in pickup games and with the Bulls at times. While I disagree with some of that, he can learn to do new things. It's all handles right now. Everyone knew he was raw clay. That being said, I hate the way he drives to the hole. It's all reliant on explosion and full speed, few moves and dribbles. Although he has the spin move, which will only carry him only so far when teams play him for that.

I think there is a difference in saying "Pat Williams probably wont' be a star" and being alarmist. Saying I think he projects out into someone like Thad Young shouldn't be viewed as alarmist. It's a good solid player and someone you will be happy to have.

Alarmist was the wrong word. But there is also a difference between saying there is zero reason at all to be exited, and saying something more moderate about what he is up to at such a young age and development axis point. If the fair opinion that he can be Thad Young is offered, that's cool.

[MrSparkle]

The main thing is he jumped directly from the NCAA bench to NBA starter. It was underplayed. IMO he's a blank canvas with tons of talent, who simply isn't used to 30+ mpg pro grind. He was averaging 22 mpg in college, and March Madness didn't even happen. Now he is taking superstar defensive assignments, trying different roles on offense, and basically shouldering the PF position since Otto, Lauri, Hutch and Wendell keep missing time.

Not that Thad and Deng couldn't have done as well or better, but they were more polished and experienced 19yos, with less talent.

I've noticed that we get about one good half from PW. He'll be very quiet, sometimes in the first, and then comes alive after a few embarrassments. I like to look more at peaks than numbers, from rookies. His defense is steady; when he hits gear 5 and wants to rebound, dunk, score or pass, he can do it on anybody.

But he also looks like a big kid, and sometimes has really awkward sequences. It's too early to tell if his handles are limited and clunky, or if he just has to work on it. We'll see; that'd be the difference between a primary and secondary creator, which is quite significant. One's a superstar, the other is a fringe star, glue guy.

But his shooting/touch and hands are very promising. Feel like his foot-work needs the most attention, which can be taught. I also feel like he could have fast-tracked his development so much the last year, that he still needs a year or two for some things to catch up. Could be that his head wants to make plays that his muscle memory can't execute on demand yet. Unlike Lebron or LaMelo... PW is a very mechanical player, with very telegraphed moves. Seems like he's still processing in slow-motion sometimes.

I honestly get the vibe it's more that - because he is a very athletic guy, and has flashed explosive hops and speed. I hope it clicks after a year or two of experience and we unleash THE PAW (ha Stacey finally came alive this year with that comment).

[kulaz3000]

Something I've seen Patrick do a lot more often as of late is that he is getting the ball in the paint, mostly on offensive rebounds and he explodes for the dunk. He clearly has the bounce and strength to explode with two feet, and quite quickly for dunks.

I mention this, because he is clearly raw where I don't think he even knows what he is truly capable of at this point in his young career, because every few games, he shows a new wrinkle to his game. This could simply be due to him becoming comfortable with the NBA, but also coaches pointing things out they've seen him do in practice, but hadn't shown in games.

I also have already seen him have pretty poor first halves, and bounce back in the second half, this shows to me that he has the ability to adapt and adjust - it may seem like an obvious thing, but many young players get down on themselves and gets bogged down by their mistakes, he has shown that he soldiers through.

[JimmyButler21]

The Kawhi comparisons are completely asinine IMO and unfair to Patrick Williams to compare him to a top 5 player in the NBA right now. I know he's the "new toy" because he's a rookie but let things play out. Right now, Williams is one of the worst offensive players in the NBA by PER and other analytics. I do agree he has tools to become a good piece going forward and he's very young and will benefit greatly from a normal offseason(s).

[JimmyButler21]

I bet there were people shrugging their shoulders at Kawhi his rookie season too. I see the concerns about him as temporary concerns at this point. Pat was comparable to rookie Kawhi or PG13 at a younger age for awhile, although seems to be losing some altitude now. Again, not saying he is Kawhi at all, that's insane to compare a kid to an MVP. I would lean toward saying definitely not as skilled as those guys were as rookies. But there is no reason to be alarmist this early. The Bulls barely let him do anything, which could be for good reasons as we see on turnovers. But he should be able to fill in lots of skills holes over the years. coldfish was saying he wasn't doing anything at FSU like he did in pickup games and with the Bulls at times. While I disagree with some of that, he can learn to do new things. It's all handles right now. Everyone knew he was raw clay. That being said, I hate the way he drives to the hole. It's all reliant on explosion and full speed, few moves and dribbles. Although he has the spin move, which will only carry him only so far when teams play him for that.

I think there is a difference in saying "Pat Williams probably wont' be a star" and being alarmist. Saying I think he projects out into someone like Thad Young shouldn't be viewed as alarmist. It's a good solid player and someone you will be happy to have.

If Williams turns into a decent starter for the next decade, I think that's a huge win for the Bulls coming out of a weak draft. Sure, you'd like to grab a superstar at #4 but that wasn't realistic picking outside of the top 3 in that specific Draft. And really, I think Williams becoming a decent starter, somewhere below an All Star player is the most likely outcome. That's not hate, that's just being realistic. Coming out of the draft, I definitely would have taken that out of Williams.

Unfortunately, like Carter, Markkanen, and White; it doesn't help the Bulls go from a mediocre team in NBA Hell to a contender in the East and that's what you got out of your tank years.

[Repeat 3-peat]

The Kawhi comparisons are unfair to Williams. He's talented but I'm not going to expect him to become a top 5 player. Even Kawhi was not compared to superstars, maybe a Bruce Bowen, 3&D type.

Jerami Grant with better passing is a good comparison for Williams at this stage.

[fleet]

The Kawhi comparisons are unfair to Williams. He's talented but I'm not going to expect him to become a top 5 player. Even Kawhi was not compared to superstars, maybe a Bruce Bowen, 3&D type.

Jerami Grant with better passing is a good comparison for Williams at this stage.

I’m going with Pat ending up something in the Tayshaun Prince Josh Howard Luol Deng upside neighborhood. Final answer. But we’ll need to bump his metabolism a little. I don’t see that as an issue because he seems to be completely tethered to rigid coaching instruction at this point.

[Chi town]

People hating on the Kawhi comps... we are talking Rookie Kawhi who was 3 years older than PaW btw too

[JimmyButler21]

People hating on the Kawhi comps... we are talking Rookie Kawhi who was 3 years older than PaW btw too

People are hating on the Kawhi comps because Kawhi is a superstar and top 5 player in the NBA and Williams has shown literally nothing so far that's warranted those comps. Doesn't mean Williams can't be good. I didn't really care for the Williams pick but I've enjoyed him so far and think he's a piece they should keep going forward but nothing he's done so far screams "superstar" to me. But I guess it's possible, we all knew Williams was going to be a work in progress based on his age and the fact that he didn't start in college and with COVID-19 decimating his first rookie summer. We'll see how he develops these next few seasons.

[Indomitable]

People hating on the Kawhi comps... we are talking Rookie Kawhi who was 3 years older than PaW btw too

Leonard was 20 as a rookie. What are you talking about?

[Dez]

People hating on the Kawhi comps... we are talking Rookie Kawhi who was 3 years older than PaW btw too

People are hating on the Kawhi comps because Kawhi is a superstar and top 5 player in the NBA and Williams has shown literally nothing so far that's warranted those comps. Doesn't mean Williams can't be good. I didn't really care for the Williams pick but I've enjoyed him so far and think he's a piece they should keep going forward but nothing he's done so far screams "superstar" to me. But I guess it's possible, we all knew Williams was going to be a work in progress based on his age and the fact that he didn't start in college and with COVID-19 decimating his first rookie summer. We'll see how he develops these next few seasons.

You are aware that when people make that comparison they aren't saying he is Kawhi but that aspects of his game remind people of Kawhi right?

It's perfectly reasonable to compare him to Kawhi, nobody legitimately thinks he's Kawhi Leonard right now.

I mean LeBron literally said Williams reminded him of Kawhi after playing him.