OT: Highland Park 4th of July Parade Mass Shooting

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

As I've said, I don't really feel passionately about guns personally, but society seems to be moving more and more passionately against gun ownership as a whole, and ironically, I think most of the arguments by people with whom passionately want to keep them actually push the moderate people against them because they often come off as callous and unreasonable (not to say your arguments fall into this category, but many of the most vocal arguments do, I know as a moderate when I hear most of the more vocal people about it, I think they're **** crazy).

I'm not sure society as a whole is moving in the direction to get rid of firearms. At least not in my world. I know and have lived in an environment where I would say more than half of the people I know were gun owners. Yes its easy to see what the media portrays but there is so much more to the story than the media tells. They usually have their own initiatives. I just can't see this country taking a hunting rifle out of the hands of the people. Hunting is a bigger sport in this country than a lot of people even know. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to owning a gun. And before some smarta$$ chimes in and says, oh you value hunting over saving lives, no I don't. But I'm being realistic. More restrictions, more gun limits, more mental help. Lets get the ball rolling on these things.

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

I remember being a teenager, I was taught gun safety at a young age, and it was just normal to drive around with rifles hanging in the window of our truck. We would go road hunting and it was just normal to have the shotgun on the seat next to us loaded and ready to go. Nobody shot each other or even worried about getting shot. Such a different time now. Its sad.

I know, cool story bruh....

[dougthonus]

I'm not sure society as a whole is moving in the direction to get rid of firearms. At least not in my world. I know and have lived in an environment where I would say more than half of the people I know were gun owners. Yes its easy to see what the media portrays but there is so much more to the story than the media tells. They usually have their own initiatives. I just can't see this country taking a hunting rifle out of the hands of the people. Hunting is a bigger sport in this country than a lot of people even know. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to owning a gun. And before some smarta$$ chimes in and says, oh you value hunting over saving lives, no I don't. But I'm being realistic. More restrictions, more gun limits, more mental help. Lets get the ball rolling on these things.

I think everything you've said is reasonable, I'll say again, guns aren't a hot button issue to me. I live in an area that is probably more likely to be anti-gun than pro-gun, though I know plenty of people who are passionate on both sides (as stated, I'm not passionate on either side).

I can tell you generally speaking, the number of people I know whom are passionately against guns has risen dramatically over the last 20 years. I agree there are pockets that are strongly in favor or against for various reasons, my view is only that the "against" momentum seems pretty clear to me. It doesn't mean it will continue that way, but I wouldn't be shocked if it does.

Does the media play a role in that? Probably. Public opinion certainly shifts based on media attention to a subject, and you can argue chicken/egg (does the media write about something due to public interest or are media outlets pushing a general view due to the strong view of the owners or just selling clicks or other motives).

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

I'm not sure society as a whole is moving in the direction to get rid of firearms. At least not in my world. I know and have lived in an environment where I would say more than half of the people I know were gun owners. Yes its easy to see what the media portrays but there is so much more to the story than the media tells. They usually have their own initiatives. I just can't see this country taking a hunting rifle out of the hands of the people. Hunting is a bigger sport in this country than a lot of people even know. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to owning a gun. And before some smarta$$ chimes in and says, oh you value hunting over saving lives, no I don't. But I'm being realistic. More restrictions, more gun limits, more mental help. Lets get the ball rolling on these things.

I think everything you've said is reasonable, I'll say again, guns aren't a hot button issue to me. I live in an area that is probably more likely to be anti-gun than pro-gun, though I know plenty of people who are passionate on both sides (as stated, I'm not passionate on either side).

I can tell you generally speaking, the number of people I know whom are passionately against guns has risen dramatically over the last 20 years. I agree there are pockets that are strongly in favor or against for various reasons, my view is only that the "against" momentum seems pretty clear to me. It doesn't mean it will continue that way, but I wouldn't be shocked if it does.

Unfortunately this country is so divided by politics and it drives everything. Talk about something that needs fixing. I'm not going there though.

[dougthonus]

Unfortunately this country is so divided by politics and it drives everything. Talk about something that needs fixing. I'm not going there though.

I agree that our political system is fundamentally broken. That is the problem with a two party system. Ignore democrats and republicans for the moment, but just think fundamentally about a two party system and what happens when both sides have relatively similar power.

Understand that they disagree on all issues (or how to resolve issues they agree on), because anything they whole heartedly agree on is just done and no longer an issue, so all that is left are contentious issues. What makes the most sense for each side is not to give in on reasonable things from the other side, but to use all of your things as bargaining chips to get what you want from the other side. Thus the end state is likely deadlock.

Let's imagine instead, you had a system with 10 fairly diverse parties which all had some cross over with other parties.

You wouldn't hold minor things you don't really care about up as bargaining chips, because you wouldn't be in a 1:1 battle, you would be far more willing to compromise with people on other sides of the table because you could never push anything through yourself. You would constantly having to horse trade and compromise and prioritize your asks to get anything through. You would naturally need to move towards collaboration.

In our current system, each side just tries to figure out any tactical way to get over 50% of the vote so they can have carte blanche to do what they want and polarizes whatever politics they have to get that 50% and does whatever gerrymandering or anything else they can in order to do that. It's just a mess.

At the same time, it's also likely that any political system moves towards a two party system as well, because in the end, it's better to pre-negotiate all your major issues into one group to gain this over whelming advantage.

[1985Bear]

I remember being a teenager, I was taught gun safety at a young age, and it was just normal to drive around with rifles hanging in the window of our truck. We would go road hunting and it was just normal to have the shotgun on the seat next to us loaded and ready to go. Nobody shot each other or even worried about getting shot. Such a different time now. Its sad.

I know, cool story bruh....

I don’t really disagree with you and am glad you are well trained and respect the power of your weapons. As much as I want big changes, I haven’t seen any serious argument to ban all guns. Having a couple of hunting guns or a handgun for safety in a house is reasonable.

Having some reasonable fellow Bulls fans tell their side of the issue is healthy. But I still haven’t seen what changes should be done from that side. Doug listed out some basic steps that can help regulate what, where and who has guns, nothing about taking them unless you are deemed “not eligible”

I am engaged in this thread because I want the gun violence in this country to end. No need for political talking points here, but it would be great if we could have any sort of consensus on what is reasonable. I would love to be able to tell my lib friends, “I was talking with some gun owners who really are on board with X” It would make all of us less nuts. I feel insane that this keeps happening. I have to believe gun owners do too.

If I was a gun owner, I would be looking for ways to compromise right now because things are out of control. There are a lot of people with dead family members at the hands of guns and they are coming for all guns.

Mental Health - Do what? (I’m all for it.)
Federal Registration -
Federal background checks -
Federal age requirements -
Federal magazine capacity limits-


Note: things got off track around suicide. I never thought owning a gun made you more suicidal, it’s just that suicide success is way more successful than any other way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

I remember being a teenager, I was taught gun safety at a young age, and it was just normal to drive around with rifles hanging in the window of our truck. We would go road hunting and it was just normal to have the shotgun on the seat next to us loaded and ready to go. Nobody shot each other or even worried about getting shot. Such a different time now. Its sad.

I know, cool story bruh....

I don’t really disagree with you and am glad you are well trained and respect the power of your weapons. As much as I want big changes, I haven’t seen any serious argument to ban all guns. Having a couple of hunting guns or a handgun for safety in a house is reasonable.

Having some reasonable fellow Bulls fans tell their side of the issue is healthy. But I still haven’t seen what changes should be done from that side. Doug listed out some basic steps that can help regulate what, where and who has guns, nothing about taking them unless you are deemed “not eligible”

I am engaged in this thread because I want the gun violence in this country to end. No need for political talking points here, but it would be great if we could have any sort of consensus on what is reasonable. I would love to be able to tell my lib friends, “I was talking with some gun owners who really are on board with X” It would make all of us less nuts. I feel insane that this keeps happening. I have to believe gun owners do too.

If I was a gun owner, I would be looking for ways to compromise right now because things are out of control. There are a lot of people with dead family members at the hands of guns and they are coming for all guns.

Mental Health - Do what? (I’m all for it.)
Federal Registration -
Federal background checks -
Federal age requirements -
Federal magazine capacity limits-


Note: things got off track around suicide. I never thought owning a gun made you more suicidal, it’s just that suicide success is way more successful than any other way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mental Health - Do what? (I’m all for it.)

There's a lot that needs to be done here and its mostly going to take time for anything we implement. I don't know what they teach in school these days so I apologize but I remember they taught safe sex. Maybe they can start the mental awareness education. Teach kids to get help or how to see signs of this in others. I don't know, I'm just throwing things out there. We should also get more funding in this category to give these people a place to go to get help. Give families more resources on getting those help. This is a hard one.

Federal Registration - For sure and any illegally found firearms will be taken away.
Federal background checks - This could be a touchy subject on privacy at least for the background checks I want to do, but we need to do a deep background check.
Federal age requirements - No co-signing by parents!
Federal magazine capacity limits- I'm on board with this. CA already has limits. They prohibit the quick release of magazines with the bullet button. Well probably due to neighboring states who don't follow these regulations it is still easy to get around this. You can make something or just buy it off of ebay . They also have a 10 round capacity limit on magazines. Well I know someone who purchased, lets just say unlawful magazines just off of craigslist. A federal push would hopefully keep this from happening.

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

Its crazy but the prime minister(former) of Japan was shot. This is a country with very strict gun laws. Looks like he used a home made firearm with 2 metal barrels attached to a wooden board with black tape.

[Dresden]

Its crazy but the prime minister(former) of Japan was shot. This is a country with very strict gun laws. Looks like he used a home made firearm with 2 metal barrels attached to a wooden board with black tape.

Some info on Japan's gun laws:

"Under Japan's firearms laws, the only guns permitted for sale are shotguns and air rifles -- handguns are outlawed. But getting them is a long and complicated process that requires effort -- and lots of patience.

To qualify for a firearm license, potential buyers must attend an all-day class, pass a written test and a shooting-range test with an accuracy of at least 95%. They also must undergo a mental health evaluation and drug tests, as well as a rigorous background check -- including a review of their criminal record, personal debt, involvement in organized crime and relationships with family and friends.
After obtaining a gun, the owner must register their weapon with police and provide details of where their gun and ammunition is stored, in separate, locked compartments. The gun must be inspected by the police once a year, and gun owners must retake the class and sit an exam every three years to renew their license.

The restrictions have kept the number of private gun owners in Japan extremely low."

and the results:

"In 2018, Japan, a country of 125 million people, only reported nine deaths from firearms -- compared with 39,740 that year in the United States, according to data compiled by the Sydney School of Public Health at the University of Sydney."

[TheStig]

So it's suicidal people committing suicide and this is a gun issue? Sounds like there are many ways to commit suicide with household items. Lot's of people take pills, it's quick, it's easy, it's painless. Are we going to take away prescription drugs?

Not saying this is a good or bad reason to think any one particular way about guns, but it's been shown guns dramatically increase suicide. Taking a lot of pills isn't quick or easy or painless and has a high risk of failure. Most people don't have the stomach to slit their wrists. You could walk in front of a train or jump off something really high, but those can be more difficult as they're often public and other downsides. Guns have been shown to pretty significantly increase suicide rates / success. Clearly the people are deeply troubled whom are attempting suicide anyway, so the gun isn't the root cause of the problem, but access does have a marked increase on success / follow through.

I just think it's a pretty flimsy reason. If someone is hell bent on ending it, they won't reconsider because a gun isn't accessible.

[dougthonus]

I just think it's a pretty flimsy reason. If someone is hell bent on ending it, they won't reconsider because a gun isn't accessible.

Most people who commit suicide are not hell bent on it. Someone who is hell bent on it will be successful. Someone who has a momentary crisis and has a quick, efficient, easy, low risk way to act on their impulse is going to take advantage of a gun in this scenario but likely isn't going to go out and walk in front of a train.

The studies on it show that.

Again, I don't care about banning guns to reduce suicides, and I'm only stating it for informational purposes to point out why your rationale here isn't relevant to the argument being made.

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

Its crazy but the prime minister(former) of Japan was shot. This is a country with very strict gun laws. Looks like he used a home made firearm with 2 metal barrels attached to a wooden board with black tape.

Some info on Japan's gun laws:

"Under Japan's firearms laws, the only guns permitted for sale are shotguns and air rifles -- handguns are outlawed. But getting them is a long and complicated process that requires effort -- and lots of patience.

To qualify for a firearm license, potential buyers must attend an all-day class, pass a written test and a shooting-range test with an accuracy of at least 95%. They also must undergo a mental health evaluation and drug tests, as well as a rigorous background check -- including a review of their criminal record, personal debt, involvement in organized crime and relationships with family and friends.
After obtaining a gun, the owner must register their weapon with police and provide details of where their gun and ammunition is stored, in separate, locked compartments. The gun must be inspected by the police once a year, and gun owners must retake the class and sit an exam every three years to renew their license.

The restrictions have kept the number of private gun owners in Japan extremely low."

and the results:

"In 2018, Japan, a country of 125 million people, only reported nine deaths from firearms -- compared with 39,740 that year in the United States, according to data compiled by the Sydney School of Public Health at the University of Sydney."

Japan is a totally different environment than here in the US. I'm not making excuses I'm just stating a fact. The people are way different, we have such a mix of people here, the culture is way different, the land is way different, the history is way different. Japan would be a great place to live if you don't like firearms.

[ShouldaPaidBG]

I see society as a human body where the majority of the blood is siphoned off to sit uselessly in plastic bags while the rest of the body tries to operate on half the amount of blood it needs.

Eliminate economic rent and ills like this will dissipate quickly.

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

I remember being a teenager, I was taught gun safety at a young age, and it was just normal to drive around with rifles hanging in the window of our truck. We would go road hunting and it was just normal to have the shotgun on the seat next to us loaded and ready to go. Nobody shot each other or even worried about getting shot. Such a different time now. Its sad.

I know, cool story bruh....

I don’t really disagree with you and am glad you are well trained and respect the power of your weapons. As much as I want big changes, I haven’t seen any serious argument to ban all guns. Having a couple of hunting guns or a handgun for safety in a house is reasonable.

Having some reasonable fellow Bulls fans tell their side of the issue is healthy. But I still haven’t seen what changes should be done from that side. Doug listed out some basic steps that can help regulate what, where and who has guns, nothing about taking them unless you are deemed “not eligible”

I am engaged in this thread because I want the gun violence in this country to end. No need for political talking points here, but it would be great if we could have any sort of consensus on what is reasonable. I would love to be able to tell my lib friends, “I was talking with some gun owners who really are on board with X” It would make all of us less nuts. I feel insane that this keeps happening. I have to believe gun owners do too.

If I was a gun owner, I would be looking for ways to compromise right now because things are out of control. There are a lot of people with dead family members at the hands of guns and they are coming for all guns.

Mental Health - Do what? (I’m all for it.)
Federal Registration -
Federal background checks -
Federal age requirements -
Federal magazine capacity limits-


Note: things got off track around suicide. I never thought owning a gun made you more suicidal, it’s just that suicide success is way more successful than any other way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Another suggestion. Parents please take your kids out regularly and do things like camping, or fishing, or hunting, yes hunting. Or just on trips somewhere or a day at the park or whatever it is just to get them off their damn computers or mobile devices and into reality on a regular basis. Some of these kids are just on the internet way too much and need to get in touch with whats real.

[Dresden]

Its crazy but the prime minister(former) of Japan was shot. This is a country with very strict gun laws. Looks like he used a home made firearm with 2 metal barrels attached to a wooden board with black tape.

Some info on Japan's gun laws:

"Under Japan's firearms laws, the only guns permitted for sale are shotguns and air rifles -- handguns are outlawed. But getting them is a long and complicated process that requires effort -- and lots of patience.

To qualify for a firearm license, potential buyers must attend an all-day class, pass a written test and a shooting-range test with an accuracy of at least 95%. They also must undergo a mental health evaluation and drug tests, as well as a rigorous background check -- including a review of their criminal record, personal debt, involvement in organized crime and relationships with family and friends.
After obtaining a gun, the owner must register their weapon with police and provide details of where their gun and ammunition is stored, in separate, locked compartments. The gun must be inspected by the police once a year, and gun owners must retake the class and sit an exam every three years to renew their license.

The restrictions have kept the number of private gun owners in Japan extremely low."

and the results:

"In 2018, Japan, a country of 125 million people, only reported nine deaths from firearms -- compared with 39,740 that year in the United States, according to data compiled by the Sydney School of Public Health at the University of Sydney."

Japan is a totally different environment than here in the US. I'm not making excuses I'm just stating a fact. The people are way different, we have such a mix of people here, the culture is way different, the land is way different, the history is way different. Japan would be a great place to live if you don't like firearms.

Do you doubt though, that if the US had the same laws about guns that Japan has, that we also would have far less gun violence than we do?

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

Some info on Japan's gun laws:

"Under Japan's firearms laws, the only guns permitted for sale are shotguns and air rifles -- handguns are outlawed. But getting them is a long and complicated process that requires effort -- and lots of patience.

To qualify for a firearm license, potential buyers must attend an all-day class, pass a written test and a shooting-range test with an accuracy of at least 95%. They also must undergo a mental health evaluation and drug tests, as well as a rigorous background check -- including a review of their criminal record, personal debt, involvement in organized crime and relationships with family and friends.
After obtaining a gun, the owner must register their weapon with police and provide details of where their gun and ammunition is stored, in separate, locked compartments. The gun must be inspected by the police once a year, and gun owners must retake the class and sit an exam every three years to renew their license.

The restrictions have kept the number of private gun owners in Japan extremely low."

and the results:

"In 2018, Japan, a country of 125 million people, only reported nine deaths from firearms -- compared with 39,740 that year in the United States, according to data compiled by the Sydney School of Public Health at the University of Sydney."

Japan is a totally different environment than here in the US. I'm not making excuses I'm just stating a fact. The people are way different, we have such a mix of people here, the culture is way different, the land is way different, the history is way different. Japan would be a great place to live if you don't like firearms.

Do you doubt though, that if the US had the same laws about guns that Japan has, that we also would have far less gun violence than we do?

No I don’t doubt it at all. I mean its as easy to understand as 1+1=2. But I think its just impossible to do here and we’ll get nowhere. We’re a very unique country in some aspects its good in a lot of ways but hard to come together and agree on things.

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

Japan is a totally different environment than here in the US. I'm not making excuses I'm just stating a fact. The people are way different, we have such a mix of people here, the culture is way different, the land is way different, the history is way different. Japan would be a great place to live if you don't like firearms.

Do you doubt though, that if the US had the same laws about guns that Japan has, that we also would have far less gun violence than we do?

No I don’t doubt it at all. I mean its as easy to understand as 1+1=2. But I think its just impossible to do here and we’ll get nowhere. We’re a very unique country in some aspects its good in a lot of ways but hard to come together and agree on things.

Let me fix that to be more appropriate. 1-1=0

But we must admit that those looking to do harm will always find a way. We can't only look at the gun issue.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Its crazy but the prime minister(former) of Japan was shot. This is a country with very strict gun laws. Looks like he used a home made firearm with 2 metal barrels attached to a wooden board with black tape.

Some info on Japan's gun laws:

"Under Japan's firearms laws, the only guns permitted for sale are shotguns and air rifles -- handguns are outlawed. But getting them is a long and complicated process that requires effort -- and lots of patience.

To qualify for a firearm license, potential buyers must attend an all-day class, pass a written test and a shooting-range test with an accuracy of at least 95%. They also must undergo a mental health evaluation and drug tests, as well as a rigorous background check -- including a review of their criminal record, personal debt, involvement in organized crime and relationships with family and friends.
After obtaining a gun, the owner must register their weapon with police and provide details of where their gun and ammunition is stored, in separate, locked compartments. The gun must be inspected by the police once a year, and gun owners must retake the class and sit an exam every three years to renew their license.

The restrictions have kept the number of private gun owners in Japan extremely low."

and the results:

"In 2018, Japan, a country of 125 million people, only reported nine deaths from firearms -- compared with 39,740 that year in the United States, according to data compiled by the Sydney School of Public Health at the University of Sydney."

Japan is a totally different environment than here in the US. I'm not making excuses I'm just stating a fact. The people are way different, we have such a mix of people here, the culture is way different, the land is way different, the history is way different. Japan would be a great place to live if you don't like firearms.

Every country’s history is different. If we leaned on that there’d be no basis to compare one part of the world to another.

Whenever gun control advocates point out that limiting gun access has reduced violence elsewhere, gun owners say America is just different.

Different how?

“It’s diverse.” Well diverse countries have successfully limited access (not that I see what diversity has to do with it).

“America has a history of violence.” Are you familiar with Japan’s history? Or Australia’s?

“America likes to hunt.” Much of Northern Europe loves to hunt.

Honestly, the real difference is that gun manufacturers have bought the Republican Party and the courts, and convinced a segment of voters that limiting gun access - including access to guns to that have no application besides killing people with extreme efficiency - is a threat to their way of life.

It’s one big profit-driven con.

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

Some info on Japan's gun laws:

"Under Japan's firearms laws, the only guns permitted for sale are shotguns and air rifles -- handguns are outlawed. But getting them is a long and complicated process that requires effort -- and lots of patience.

To qualify for a firearm license, potential buyers must attend an all-day class, pass a written test and a shooting-range test with an accuracy of at least 95%. They also must undergo a mental health evaluation and drug tests, as well as a rigorous background check -- including a review of their criminal record, personal debt, involvement in organized crime and relationships with family and friends.
After obtaining a gun, the owner must register their weapon with police and provide details of where their gun and ammunition is stored, in separate, locked compartments. The gun must be inspected by the police once a year, and gun owners must retake the class and sit an exam every three years to renew their license.

The restrictions have kept the number of private gun owners in Japan extremely low."

and the results:

"In 2018, Japan, a country of 125 million people, only reported nine deaths from firearms -- compared with 39,740 that year in the United States, according to data compiled by the Sydney School of Public Health at the University of Sydney."

Japan is a totally different environment than here in the US. I'm not making excuses I'm just stating a fact. The people are way different, we have such a mix of people here, the culture is way different, the land is way different, the history is way different. Japan would be a great place to live if you don't like firearms.

Every country’s history is different. If we leaned on that there’d be no basis to compare one part of the world to another.

Whenever gun control advocates point out that limiting gun access has reduced violence elsewhere, gun owners say America is just different.

Different how?

“It’s diverse.” Well diverse countries have successfully limited access (not that I see what diversity has to do with it).

“America has a history of violence.” Are you familiar with Japan’s history? Or Australia’s?

“America likes to hunt.” Much of Northern Europe loves to hunt.

Honestly, the real difference is that gun manufacturers have bought the Republican Party and the courts, and convinced a segment of voters that limiting gun access - including access to guns to that have no application besides killing people with extreme efficiency - is a threat to their way of life.

It’s one big profit-driven con.

I really don't know too much about the history of other countries so maybe I shouldn't be speaking on that. But I know our culture is different. Family values are going out the window in this country and its a big problem imo.
Also the fact that other countries still allow firearms to hunt but they don't have the number of issues we have here probably is proof to me that there's a people problem. Now are our people problems amplified by the access and types of firearms here? Probably and I think that is worth fixing.

[Dresden]

Do you doubt though, that if the US had the same laws about guns that Japan has, that we also would have far less gun violence than we do?

No I don’t doubt it at all. I mean its as easy to understand as 1+1=2. But I think its just impossible to do here and we’ll get nowhere. We’re a very unique country in some aspects its good in a lot of ways but hard to come together and agree on things.

Let me fix that to be more appropriate. 1-1=0

But we must admit that those looking to do harm will always find a way. We can't only look at the gun issue.

I totally agree with you that the kind of gun laws they have in Japan will not happen here for a long long time, if ever. And while it's also true that people can find a way to inflict violence, I think the evidence is overwhelming that eliminating one of the easiest ways to do that- with a gun- would drop the rate of violence substantially, as it has in other countries. That's why there are nuclear arms agreements- it doesn't stop wars, but hopefully will make them far less destructive (if nuclear weapons could ever be completely outlawed).