Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024

[Clocian]

Reese gets the headlines for the Sky. But the Chennedy Carter thing is wild. Like a top 5 guard in the league that they basically signed on a training camp contract? What?

Was considered a "headache" by other teams. In addition to maturity growth on her part, coach Tspoon is just the perfect coach for her though, and it's showing. Just a perfect situation for everyone involved really, and fortunate we gave her another shot.

[madvillian]

I feel like every conversation on Reese and Clark is like out of NBA discourse from like 2008. Entire thing is just dated. How can you compare a double double defensive big with a gravity creating PG?

You really can't. I don't really care about using PER or WS or anything like that. Just let each develop and see how it goes. Clark obviously has the much higher ceiling as a PG. A defensive big with limited offensive utility just doesn't have that upside. Doesn't mean Reese isn't a good player or having a good season.

Not hating on Reese, but is she a good defender?

I haven't watched, so I have no opinion either way.

It's kinda weird that she has fewer blocks than Clark. I know blocked shots doesn't necessarily mean good defense, but weird nonetheless.

Actually Reese a good defender one of the better defensive forwards in the league so far and all the advanced stats lean HARD her way

Win Shares both offensive and defensive
PER
Ortg
Drtg

Angel Reese is a impact player and people try and dismiss it because its not as pretty as chucking up halfcourt threes but nonetheless she is a impact player.

Shes tough right now but if she cleans up her layup package my goodness and I dont see how anyone can compare her to Drummond with a straight face . Drummond has lways bene considered around the league to be low IQ player and Reese is anything but .

ROTY of the year will go down to the wire and it will end up being co-ROTY with CC.

Sorry I can't let this go unaddressed: those "advanced" stats are passe imo. WS vastly over rates rebounds, especially defensive, PER over rates counting stats in general, and the ortg and drtg are hopelessly tied up in 5 man/women unit data to be any use.

Basketball doesn't really have anything close to WAR in baseball, not yet anyways. Maybe some of the on off court stuff ESPN is doing will get there one day.

[dice]

I feel like every conversation on Reese and Clark is like out of NBA discourse from like 2008. Entire thing is just dated. How can you compare a double double defensive big with a gravity creating PG?

You really can't. I don't really care about using PER or WS or anything like that. Just let each develop and see how it goes. Clark obviously has the much higher ceiling as a PG. A defensive big with limited offensive utility just doesn't have that upside. Doesn't mean Reese isn't a good player or having a good season.

Not hating on Reese, but is she a good defender?

I haven't watched, so I have no opinion either way.

It's kinda weird that she has fewer blocks than Clark. I know blocked shots doesn't necessarily mean good defense, but weird nonetheless.

Actually Reese a good defender one of the better defensive forwards in the league so far and all the advanced stats lean HARD her way

Win Shares both offensive and defensive
PER
Ortg
Drtg

Angel Reese is a impact player and people try and dismiss it because its not as pretty as chucking up halfcourt threes but nonetheless she is a impact player.

Shes tough right now but if she cleans up her layup package my goodness and I dont see how anyone can compare her to Drummond with a straight face . Drummond has lways bene considered around the league to be low IQ player and Reese is anything but .

ROTY of the year will go down to the wire and it will end up being co-ROTY with CC.

there are no good advanced stats for wnba. nobody yet cares enough to take the time. even college women's has the respectable BPM. but not WNBA

and clark is heavy favorite for ROY. frankly, reese is the "sucker bet" - free money for the casino (like michelle obama at 18:1 to be the next president). basically if you're betting on reese you'd better hope that clark gets injured soon. odds converted directly to percentages:

88% clark
19% reese
2% other

they need a 2nd person in the race or nobody will bet

[DuckIII]

It’s just one quarter of basketball, but is anyone watching the Fever/Liberty game right now? Clark is basically single-handedly kicking their ass.

She came out fired up.

19/13/12/2 against the team with the best record is impressive.

First rookie triple-double in W history.

Certified baller

She also was one dime or board short of dropping a trip-dub on Diana Turasi’s bitter ass.

I said it early in this thread and it will happen: all the crap Clark had to deal with FROM HER PEERS AND CHILDHOOD HEROES was a horrible look for the WNBA and will look even worse when star players start lining up begging to be traded to, or signed by, the Fever.

She’s going to be different level dominant. Once she gets a few more and better teammates capable of taking advantage of what she provides, the Fever are going to go nuts.

[DuckIII]

Anyone who gives a ROY vote to Reese will be doing it so people talk about them. There is no honest argument for anyone but Clark.

On the other hand Dice, I’ve seen three Sky games this year and Reese is a good and valuable player. She’s legit. But it’s like trying to equate Pistol Pete with Theo Ratliffe.

[RastaBull]

It’s just one quarter of basketball, but is anyone watching the Fever/Liberty game right now? Clark is basically single-handedly kicking their ass.

She came out fired up.

19/13/12/2 against the team with the best record is impressive.

First rookie triple-double in W history.

Certified baller

She also was one dime or board short of dropping a trip-dub on Diana Turasi’s bitter ass.

I said it early in this thread and it will happen: all the crap Clark had to deal with FROM HER PEERS AND CHILDHOOD HEROES was a horrible look for the WNBA and will look even worse when star players start lining up begging to be traded to, or signed by, the Fever.

She’s going to be different level dominant. Once she gets a few more and better teammates capable of taking advantage of what she provides, the Fever are going to go nuts.

I'm super excited for Reese and the Sky. Great outlook with a very exciting player.

I don't care at all about the Fever, but I'm really excited somehow for them too! Mostly because Clark strikes me as the type of generational star that will actually, seriously, stick with her franchise all the way through. And 100% think you're right, it will not be too long at all before star players are talking about getting together at Indiana.

[RastaBull]

Anyone who gives a ROY vote to Reese will be doing it so people talk about them. There is no honest argument for anyone but Clark.

On the other hand Dice, I’ve seen three Sky games this year and Reese is a good and valuable player. She’s legit. But it’s like trying to equate Pistol Pete with Theo Ratliffe.

It's weird, I feel like she's really really unfairly being overrated haha. She absolutely deserves her All-Star selection. And she is putting up really tremendous stats, specifically across this double-double stretch.

But watching her on-court performance you see very quickly that she has a lot of development to be a consistent star. She has an extremely high floor no doubt, and I can't see any way she falls to that floor. She has incredibly size and strength, and more than anyone I think she has the X-Factor fight/desire/drive in her. Being able to play in a front court with Cardoso is just a bonkers blessing that plays right to her strengths (you can throw a focused box out at Reese when you have 6'7" Cardoso right there!). I think Reese is a high IQ player, and knows how to study and focus on her strengths (ala Rodman with his study of rebounding).

It's not a knock, but I would be curious how many of her rebounds come from her own misses? (I think it's a strength actually, forget the possible inflated off boards ... she knows that when she throws it up opps are going to struggle to deal with both her and Cardoso ... you can see when Reese lays it up in paint her eyes are glued to ball and it's bounce).

But her offensive game is quite limited. She's making up for it with her IQ and knowing her strengths, and getting to play with a really well constructed roster right now.

I'm going to the Sky-Liberty game on 7/11, really excited! (Breanna Stewart lives next to my office and I see her a walking her dog some mornings).

[Betta Bulleavit]

Anyone who gives a ROY vote to Reese will be doing it so people talk about them. There is no honest argument for anyone but Clark.

On the other hand Dice, I’ve seen three Sky games this year and Reese is a good and valuable player. She’s legit. But it’s like trying to equate Pistol Pete with Theo Ratliffe.

I disagree. I think that the ROY race is very close at the moment. Reese has been every bit as impactful for the Sky as Clark has been for the Fever. Obviously, Clark has done more for the league as a whole, which does hold value. But in terms of overall impact, Reese is holding her own for sure.

[Betta Bulleavit]

Anyone who gives a ROY vote to Reese will be doing it so people talk about them. There is no honest argument for anyone but Clark.

On the other hand Dice, I’ve seen three Sky games this year and Reese is a good and valuable player. She’s legit. But it’s like trying to equate Pistol Pete with Theo Ratliffe.

It's weird, I feel like she's really really unfairly being overrated haha. She absolutely deserves her All-Star selection. And she is putting up really tremendous stats, specifically across this double-double stretch.

But watching her on-court performance you see very quickly that she has a lot of development to be a consistent star. She has an extremely high floor no doubt, and I can't see any way she falls to that floor. She has incredibly size and strength, and more than anyone I think she has the X-Factor fight/desire/drive in her. Being able to play in a front court with Cardoso is just a bonkers blessing that plays right to her strengths (you can throw a focused box out at Reese when you have 6'7" Cardoso right there!). I think Reese is a high IQ player, and knows how to study and focus on her strengths (ala Rodman with his study of rebounding).

It's not a knock, but I would be curious how many of her rebounds come from her own misses? (I think it's a strength actually, forget the possible inflated off boards ... she knows that when she throws it up opps are going to struggle to deal with both her and Cardoso ... you can see when Reese lays it up in paint her eyes are glued to ball and it's bounce).

But her offensive game is quite limited. She's making up for it with her IQ and knowing her strengths, and getting to play with a really well constructed roster right now.

I'm going to the Sky-Liberty game on 7/11, really excited! (Breanna Stewart lives next to my office and I see her a walking her dog some mornings).

To answer your question specifically around how many of her rebounds come from her own misses, the answer to that is 17%. Or roughly 1.5 per game. This means that even if you took away all of her rebounds off of her own misses, she’d still be comfortably in the top 5 of the league.

Again, Reese is a lot like Noah in that when you look at their games aesthetically, it’s very ugly. But after a while, you come to realize that 12 straight games isn’t a fluke. And then you look at her college stats, you come to realize that none of what she’s doing is new.

[DuckIII]

She came out fired up.

19/13/12/2 against the team with the best record is impressive.

First rookie triple-double in W history.

Certified baller

She also was one dime or board short of dropping a trip-dub on Diana Turasi’s bitter ass.

I said it early in this thread and it will happen: all the crap Clark had to deal with FROM HER PEERS AND CHILDHOOD HEROES was a horrible look for the WNBA and will look even worse when star players start lining up begging to be traded to, or signed by, the Fever.

She’s going to be different level dominant. Once she gets a few more and better teammates capable of taking advantage of what she provides, the Fever are going to go nuts.

I'm super excited for Reese and the Sky. Great outlook with a very exciting player.

I don't care at all about the Fever, but I'm really excited somehow for them too! Mostly because Clark strikes me as the type of generational star that will actually, seriously, stick with her franchise all the way through. And 100% think you're right, it will not be too long at all before star players are talking about getting together at Indiana.

I honestly don’t care about any of the teams (I’m from south central Illinois near STL, Bulls are the only Chi team I root for). But Clark is entertaining as hell to watch so I’ve started to watch a few WNBA games this year and not just Fever games.

It’s been fun. And with Bueckers joining next year it will get even better. She’s a baller.

[DASMACKDOWN]

But it’s like trying to equate Pistol Pete with Theo Ratliffe.

That is far too simplified.

People want to drag Angel, but her architype is one of many MVPs in the league. Candace Parker, Aja Wilson.

Everyone knows Caitlyn is in a Luka, Steph class. I don't even think that is an argument.

But people are so quick to disregard Angel like she is a scrub that can just rebound. That is pretty much the argument around social media.

15.3 pts 13.9rebs 1.9asts 45%fg since June 1. So I understand how people can be upset.

That would be like someone arguing that Caitlyn can't shoot because she shoots 39%fg and 33% from 3. I've seen that too and its ignorant.

But people pull that card because for some reason people have to put down someone to make a point about their player. It's actually stupid.

I simply am enjoying both with no shade needed.

[Ice Man]

I mean, they're both a blast. Reese is the best rebounder in the league, bar none. Rookie or no rookie. Meanwhile, Clark is the best rookie PG in league history. Yes she makes a lot of turnovers but she affects games like nobody else. I mean, she pulled her team to victory today against a 17-3 squad.

They both belonged on the ASG and whomever wins ROY, fine with me.

[madvillian]

Small world. Just saw Angel at a Seattle safeway. I was like, "that looks like Angel Reese" and then saw they are in town to play the Storm tmr.

She's THICC you can see why she gets so many rebounds. And yes, she had the falsies on for a grocery run.

[dice]

Anyone who gives a ROY vote to Reese will be doing it so people talk about them. There is no honest argument for anyone but Clark.

On the other hand Dice, I’ve seen three Sky games this year and Reese is a good and valuable player. She’s legit. But it’s like trying to equate Pistol Pete with Theo Ratliffe.

i'm fine if people wanna say she's bulls-era rodman with lots of upside. but beyond that, slow yer roll

[Shill]

Small world. Just saw Angel at a Seattle safeway. I was like, "that looks like Angel Reese" and then saw they are in town to play the Storm tmr.

She's THICC you can see why she gets so many rebounds. And yes, she had the falsies on for a grocery run.

This is better than TMZ

[DASMACKDOWN]

I swear Caitlyn could probably average 10+ asts

II know currently Alyssa Thomas is like the current Westbrook type triple double maker. But I think Caitlyn will just rack up a ton with like 15+ asts. I can really see that.

[Wingy]

Anyone who gives a ROY vote to Reese will be doing it so people talk about them. There is no honest argument for anyone but Clark.

On the other hand Dice, I’ve seen three Sky games this year and Reese is a good and valuable player. She’s legit. But it’s like trying to equate Pistol Pete with Theo Ratliffe.

It's weird, I feel like she's really really unfairly being overrated haha. She absolutely deserves her All-Star selection. And she is putting up really tremendous stats, specifically across this double-double stretch.

But watching her on-court performance you see very quickly that she has a lot of development to be a consistent star. She has an extremely high floor no doubt, and I can't see any way she falls to that floor. She has incredibly size and strength, and more than anyone I think she has the X-Factor fight/desire/drive in her. Being able to play in a front court with Cardoso is just a bonkers blessing that plays right to her strengths (you can throw a focused box out at Reese when you have 6'7" Cardoso right there!). I think Reese is a high IQ player, and knows how to study and focus on her strengths (ala Rodman with his study of rebounding).

It's not a knock, but I would be curious how many of her rebounds come from her own misses? (I think it's a strength actually, forget the possible inflated off boards ... she knows that when she throws it up opps are going to struggle to deal with both her and Cardoso ... you can see when Reese lays it up in paint her eyes are glued to ball and it's bounce).

But her offensive game is quite limited. She's making up for it with her IQ and knowing her strengths, and getting to play with a really well constructed roster right now.

I'm going to the Sky-Liberty game on 7/11, really excited! (Breanna Stewart lives next to my office and I see her a walking her dog some mornings).

To answer your question specifically around how many of her rebounds come from her own misses, the answer to that is 17%. Or roughly 1.5 per game. This means that even if you took away all of her rebounds off of her own misses, she’d still be comfortably in the top 5 of the league.

Again, Reese is a lot like Noah in that when you look at their games aesthetically, it’s very ugly. But after a while, you come to realize that 12 straight games isn’t a fluke. And then you look at her college stats, you come to realize that none of what she’s doing is new.

You steal that from Noh without giving credit?

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/wnba/news/angel-reese-rebounding-controversy-stat-padding-wnba/bf63933055d5f3861e874a46

[Shill]

I swear Caitlyn could probably average 10+ asts

II know currently Alyssa Thomas is like the current Westbrook type triple double maker. But I think Caitlyn will just rack up a ton with like 15+ asts. I can really see that.

13 more today

Read on Twitter

[Ice Man]

Yeah, she's OK for a player who can't do anything except shoot 3 pointers. On a related note, Angel Reese kept the ROY battle heated up by getting her umpeenth consecutive double-double today, albeit by taking it to the hole with 6 seconds left when her team was up 7 and the opposition had conceded the game.

Well, it's not as if Russ wouldn't have done the same.

[Betta Bulleavit]

It's weird, I feel like she's really really unfairly being overrated haha. She absolutely deserves her All-Star selection. And she is putting up really tremendous stats, specifically across this double-double stretch.

But watching her on-court performance you see very quickly that she has a lot of development to be a consistent star. She has an extremely high floor no doubt, and I can't see any way she falls to that floor. She has incredibly size and strength, and more than anyone I think she has the X-Factor fight/desire/drive in her. Being able to play in a front court with Cardoso is just a bonkers blessing that plays right to her strengths (you can throw a focused box out at Reese when you have 6'7" Cardoso right there!). I think Reese is a high IQ player, and knows how to study and focus on her strengths (ala Rodman with his study of rebounding).

It's not a knock, but I would be curious how many of her rebounds come from her own misses? (I think it's a strength actually, forget the possible inflated off boards ... she knows that when she throws it up opps are going to struggle to deal with both her and Cardoso ... you can see when Reese lays it up in paint her eyes are glued to ball and it's bounce).

But her offensive game is quite limited. She's making up for it with her IQ and knowing her strengths, and getting to play with a really well constructed roster right now.

I'm going to the Sky-Liberty game on 7/11, really excited! (Breanna Stewart lives next to my office and I see her a walking her dog some mornings).

To answer your question specifically around how many of her rebounds come from her own misses, the answer to that is 17%. Or roughly 1.5 per game. This means that even if you took away all of her rebounds off of her own misses, she’d still be comfortably in the top 5 of the league.

Again, Reese is a lot like Noah in that when you look at their games aesthetically, it’s very ugly. But after a while, you come to realize that 12 straight games isn’t a fluke. And then you look at her college stats, you come to realize that none of what she’s doing is new.

You steal that from Noh without giving credit?

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/wnba/news/angel-reese-rebounding-controversy-stat-padding-wnba/bf63933055d5f3861e874a46

Great find!! But no, that’s actually not where I got my data from. I’ve been tracking it old school style on a spreadsheet since the Sky’s 6th game. There were a lot of people ranting about how she rebounds so many of her own misses and were using that to discount the integrity of her rebounding stats. So I became somewhat infatuated with proving (or disproving) it and decided to start tracking it myself since it’s not a stat that is officially recorded anywhere. For the first five games, I had to go through the painstaking task of reviewing the official game logs.

I’m happy to know that my unofficial numbers are pretty consistent with his though.