NBA Trade Thread #12

[WesPeace]

Draft great defender at SF or C position, get one player there with #11-12 and trade Vucevic and POR pick for another player.. defense and high BBIQ must be priority this draft and offseason.

[jnrjr79]

I like to think that Coby could fetch 2 1sts, but part of me says it's just 1 first and a rotation level player with upside.

I would think the fact that Coby can’t be extended for a number he is likely to take will limit his market, because whoever trades for him 1) will need cap space to keep him, and 2) there won’t be any guarantees they can even if they open up space because he’ll a an UFA.

If they trade for him they get his bird right and can go over the cap to resign him. They just can’t extend him.

That is not my understanding. Because of the terms of his current contract with the Bulls, the Bulls do not have his Bird rights and cannot go over the cap to re-sign him, nor would any team that trades for him.

[Chi town]

I would think the fact that Coby can’t be extended for a number he is likely to take will limit his market, because whoever trades for him 1) will need cap space to keep him, and 2) there won’t be any guarantees they can even if they open up space because he’ll a an UFA.

If they trade for him they get his bird right and can go over the cap to resign him. They just can’t extend him.

That is not my understanding. Because of the terms of his current contract with the Bulls, the Bulls do not have his Bird rights and cannot go over the cap to re-sign him, nor would any team that trades for him.

Hmm. Link?

I was under the understanding that it was only his extension. It could not be worth more than 140%. Like all players under contract you retain their bird rights after their contract.

[Infinity2152]

If they trade for him they get his bird right and can go over the cap to resign him. They just can’t extend him.

That is not my understanding. Because of the terms of his current contract with the Bulls, the Bulls do not have his Bird rights and cannot go over the cap to re-sign him, nor would any team that trades for him.

Hmm. Link?

I was under the understanding that it was only his extension. It could not be worth more than 140%. Like all players under contract you retain their bird rights after their contract.

Asked Copilot and ChatGPT AI, said Chicago Bulls do retain bird rights over Coby White, and can re-sign him over the cap. As long as he consents to the trade, is eligible and under contract, a receiving team would retain those rights.

[2weekswithpay]

Coby has been on the team for 6 seasons. We have his full bird rights, and any team that trades for him would also get his bird rights.

[sco]

Coby has been on the team for 6 seasons. We have his full bird rights, and any team that trades for him would also get his bird rights.

I want to believe that AK would trade Coby if a good deal came around, but after the presser, I'm thinking there's no way he trades Coby for even 3 1sts.

[PJSteven22]

Can’t trade Giddey for Zion unless you re-sign him to a deal so big the salaries match. You can’t aggregate salaries in a sign-and-trade.

I’m pretty sure you can unless they changed it. That’s how we got Lonzo. Even if you can’t aggregate contracts you can start him off at around 30+ million and the trade works.

The signed-and-traded player can’t be aggregated with others, to my understanding. You can aggregate the players on the other side of the deal, though, which is how the Bulls acquired Lonzo.

Garrett temple was signed and traded from the Bulls to the Pelicans as well in that Lonzo deal. His salary was aggregated with Tomas Satoransky. Still my second point still remains.

[Ccwatercraft]

I think GIddey would make a PF or C with good hands an all star. He'd get 3-4 hand off assists a game to someone who could finish in the paint

I was hoping to see more of that with Buze, Phillips, even vuc, but aside from the occasional slick pass it never really came about. What he did show was a pretty solid and agressive inside game, it's clumsy but effective and his FT numbers spiked after zach left.

Giddy would be most effective with a movement offense, lots of cuts and repositioning, we aren't effective there.

So yes, we need an effective 2way 4-5 guy that can improve our depth. And our defense.

[Ccwatercraft]

I think Coby stays…

But what if Pistons offer Ivey?

Ivey and Holland if we throw in the POR pick or Jalen Smith to help their shooting?

Ivey and Holland for let's say White and Carter as an expiring contract. No the Bulls shouldn't be adding the PORT pick or especially Smith to an improving 20ppg scorer.

What I like about the idea is getting a young player on his rookie contract who may not have reached his potential and could match up timeline wise with other Bulls. Ivey is similar to Giddey in that he can rebound and pass the ball, but he's already a better shooter, 46 and 40%. If he sees what the Billy style did for Giddey and White moving the ball until there's an open shot while driving downhill he could really take off.

Holland is a top 5 pick and that shine stays on for awhile.

I think Ivey will be a two way all star. Don’t think he’s a PG but he is much better at PG than Coby. He’s an elite athlete who plays above the rim and can really defend. He’d be awesome in our fast pace offense.

DET will see how he looks with Cade before they consider a trade. I think he was looking really good next to Cade.

I do think Holland is the odd man out there with Ausar basically being his twin with a bigger frame. I’d love Holland as that lock down wing between Coby Giddey and Buz. He’s super aggressive and has lots of dog in him. I think Patton would help his shot a lot too. I think Holland is gettable. I’d trade our first for him most likely or POR pick or Smith.

Frankly I don't see that Detroit has any odd men out, their roster commitments and salary situation is pretty good unless I'm missing something

[Ccwatercraft]

I think GIddey would make a PF or C with good hands an all star. He'd get 3-4 hand off assists a game to someone who could finish in the paint

I was hoping to see more of that with Buze, Phillips, even vuc, but aside from the occasional slick pass it never really came about. What he did show was a pretty solid and agressive inside game, it's clumsy but effective and his FT numbers spiked after zach left.

Giddy would be most effective with a movement offense, lots of cuts and repositioning, we aren't effective there.

So yes, we need an effective 2way 4-5 guy that can improve our depth. And our defense while complementing josh.

[Infinity2152]

Saw an article today that says Coby White will be eligible for a 4 year/$89 mill extension on July 10th. Any idea how accurate this is? More than the usual estimate, less than $30 mill AAV, around $22 mill. $89 mill guaranteed is a lot to turn down. Add in the $12 mill for next year, he's at $101 mill just for 5 years. Plus the $24 mill for his rookie contract and $28 mill for the last two years. Set for life.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/bulls-offseason-primer-chicago-betting-on-josh-giddey-coby-white-and-a-summer-reset/ar-AA1DeWAJ

[Donkedave]

Saw an article today that says Coby White will be eligible for a 4 year/$89 mill extension on July 10th. Any idea how accurate this is? More than the usual estimate, less than $30 mill AAV, around $22 mill. $89 mill guaranteed is a lot to turn down. Add in the $12 mill for next year, he's at $101 mill just for 5 years. Plus the $24 mill for his rookie contract and $28 mill for the last two years. Set for life.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/bulls-offseason-primer-chicago-betting-on-josh-giddey-coby-white-and-a-summer-reset/ar-AA1DeWAJ

Extension
Year 1 $18,044,445
Year 2 $19,488,000
Year 3 $21,047,040
Year 4 $22,730,803

4/$81.31m(little more with change)
$20.3m AAV

[WesPeace]

Saw an article today that says Coby White will be eligible for a 4 year/$89 mill extension on July 10th. Any idea how accurate this is? More than the usual estimate, less than $30 mill AAV, around $22 mill. $89 mill guaranteed is a lot to turn down. Add in the $12 mill for next year, he's at $101 mill just for 5 years. Plus the $24 mill for his rookie contract and $28 mill for the last two years. Set for life.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/bulls-offseason-primer-chicago-betting-on-josh-giddey-coby-white-and-a-summer-reset/ar-AA1DeWAJ

Yep,thats accurate.. for that money we could keep him. Even for 6th man bench scorer thats not crazy money. Giddey 30M per, White 22M per its decent deals.

[Infinity2152]

Saw an article today that says Coby White will be eligible for a 4 year/$89 mill extension on July 10th. Any idea how accurate this is? More than the usual estimate, less than $30 mill AAV, around $22 mill. $89 mill guaranteed is a lot to turn down. Add in the $12 mill for next year, he's at $101 mill just for 5 years. Plus the $24 mill for his rookie contract and $28 mill for the last two years. Set for life.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/bulls-offseason-primer-chicago-betting-on-josh-giddey-coby-white-and-a-summer-reset/ar-AA1DeWAJ

Yep,thats accurate.. for that money we could keep him. Even for 6th man bench scorer thats not crazy money. Giddey 30M per, White 22M per its decent deals.

That's what I was wondering, if people were more receptive to keeping him around $20-22mill. Easy to say he'll never accept. A lot of NBA players have really regretted not taking extensions they thought were too low. Career or season ending long term injury like Ball, he could lose more money than he's made in 7 years turning it down. He'd have to play an entire year with no insurance for injury. Simple injury like breaking his shooting hand or wrist, out for half the season could maybe drop him below $20 AAV if he's not healed by free agency. There's some risk in waiting for him.

League doesn't always work the way the players think it will. Last year Caleb Martin turned down 5 yrs/65 mill from the Heat. Ended up getting 4yrs/ $32 mill. Derozan was almost screwed, think the only way he got the money he was looking for was because we sign and traded him. Market money had dried up.

[jnrjr79]

That is not my understanding. Because of the terms of his current contract with the Bulls, the Bulls do not have his Bird rights and cannot go over the cap to re-sign him, nor would any team that trades for him.

Hmm. Link?

I was under the understanding that it was only his extension. It could not be worth more than 140%. Like all players under contract you retain their bird rights after their contract.

Asked Copilot and ChatGPT AI, said Chicago Bulls do retain bird rights over Coby White, and can re-sign him over the cap. As long as he consents to the trade, is eligible and under contract, a receiving team would retain those rights.

Yep, I stand corrected. I was confusing Bird rights with the effect of his cap hold:

36. Can a team with cap room sign all the free agents it wants (up to the salary cap) and THEN re-sign its own free agents using the Bird exception?

A team's ability to do this is very limited. The team's free agents continue to be included in team salary. This charge is called the "free agent amount," which is a form of cap hold. There may not be enough money available under the cap to sign another team's free agent, because the team's own free agents are taking up all its cap room.

Essentially, if a team retains the right (i.e., Bird rights) to sign a player while above the cap, the league assumes the team will do so, and sets aside an amount of money under the team's cap in anticipation of that signing. This keeps teams from signing other teams' free agents using their cap room, and then turning their attention to their own free agents once their cap room is all used up, using the Bird exception to re-sign their own players.

The free agent amount is based on the player's current status (type of free agent, whether coming off a rookie contract, and previous salary), as a rough guideline to predict the amount he is likely to receive in his next contract. Such a rough guideline obviously is not perfect -- for example, in 2015 Kawhi Leonard's free agent amount was just $7.2 million, even though his value as a basketball player was much higher. By waiting to sign Leonard last, the Spurs also were able to sign LaMarcus Aldridge away from the Trailblazers. Had they instead signed Leonard first, they would not have had enough cap room to sign Aldridge. They eventually re-signed Leonard for a starting salary of $16.4 million.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q32

It looks like Coby’s cap hold will be just shy of $25M. So, assuming they sign Giddey this offseason, his new deal and Coby’s cap hold (and Pat’s deal if he’s still here, Matas’s contract, etc.) would apply on their books in terms of defining what other cap space they would have available to go out and sign free agents.

[Infinity2152]

Hmm. Link?

I was under the understanding that it was only his extension. It could not be worth more than 140%. Like all players under contract you retain their bird rights after their contract.

Asked Copilot and ChatGPT AI, said Chicago Bulls do retain bird rights over Coby White, and can re-sign him over the cap. As long as he consents to the trade, is eligible and under contract, a receiving team would retain those rights.

Yep, I stand corrected. I was confusing Bird rights with the effect of his cap hold:

36. Can a team with cap room sign all the free agents it wants (up to the salary cap) and THEN re-sign its own free agents using the Bird exception?

A team's ability to do this is very limited. The team's free agents continue to be included in team salary. This charge is called the "free agent amount," which is a form of cap hold. There may not be enough money available under the cap to sign another team's free agent, because the team's own free agents are taking up all its cap room.

Essentially, if a team retains the right (i.e., Bird rights) to sign a player while above the cap, the league assumes the team will do so, and sets aside an amount of money under the team's cap in anticipation of that signing. This keeps teams from signing other teams' free agents using their cap room, and then turning their attention to their own free agents once their cap room is all used up, using the Bird exception to re-sign their own players.

The free agent amount is based on the player's current status (type of free agent, whether coming off a rookie contract, and previous salary), as a rough guideline to predict the amount he is likely to receive in his next contract. Such a rough guideline obviously is not perfect -- for example, in 2015 Kawhi Leonard's free agent amount was just $7.2 million, even though his value as a basketball player was much higher. By waiting to sign Leonard last, the Spurs also were able to sign LaMarcus Aldridge away from the Trailblazers. Had they instead signed Leonard first, they would not have had enough cap room to sign Aldridge. They eventually re-signed Leonard for a starting salary of $16.4 million.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q32

It looks like Coby’s cap hold will be just shy of $25M. So, assuming they sign Giddey this offseason, his new deal and Coby’s cap hold (and Pat’s deal if he’s still here, Matas’s contract, etc.) would apply on their books in terms of defining what other cap space they would have available to go out and sign free agents.

Bulls guaranteed money for 2026 is about 45.5 mill for Williams, Ball, Matas, Smith and Phillips. Giddey's number could be more but let's use $30 mill. 75.5 mill Add $25 mill cap hold for White, 100.5 mill. Rookies between 10-15 get between $4.7 mill to $6 mill for our 2025 rookie. Same for our 2026 rookie. Add $11 mill for both, we're at $111.5 mill for Ball, Coby, Giddey, Matas, Williams, Smith, Phillips and two rookies. Cap is at $154.6 mill, luxury tax at $187.9.

We should be able to make about a $43 mill contract offer, or two $20 mill offers, etc under the cap with the cap hold. Coby takes the extension, add a few more million. $76 mill under the luxury tax.

[MrSparkle]

My main problem with trading Coby (assuming we don’t get the Isiah Thomas, Billy King, Arturas haul) is that it’s likely the next 4Y will be the best of his career.

My main problem with resigning him is any jump to perennial stardom would be a significant/far-fetched rise in consistency and ceiling that he hasn’t shown in his 6 years. That’s a lot of sample size. At this point, even if he has a Lauri/Utah revenge season next year (in his contract year, sigh), you can easily foresee a drop back down to reality. He’s a career 13.4 PER guard with weak defense. Even with his gradual improvement, that is ways away from any young top-10 guard, who leaves 15 PER in the dust after 2-3 seasons.

Anyway, given this dilemma, I trust that AK will do the worst thing possible. Overpay him and watch us struggle with no real #1 scoring option, or trade him for Zion.

IMO Coby won’t accept this eligible max, but to me even that amount is slightly rich. He’s consistently started seasons SO flat. And he also finishes his seasons on a flat note. He also tends to play well only 1 half of a game. Those are the 2 most important times in the NBA- opening month: getting a good start against motivated healthy teams in November, and the mid April playoffs. If you’re gonna show off your peak game in March every season, all you are is a rich man’s Kilpatrick.

The full season averages don’t lie. He had INCREDIBLE numbers in March, and they still didn’t make his season averages look exceptional. 15.5 PER and -0.5 BPM sounds like a rising star rookie, not a 6-year vet.

[kodo]

Saw an article today that says Coby White will be eligible for a 4 year/$89 mill extension on July 10th. Any idea how accurate this is? More than the usual estimate, less than $30 mill AAV, around $22 mill. $89 mill guaranteed is a lot to turn down. Add in the $12 mill for next year, he's at $101 mill just for 5 years. Plus the $24 mill for his rookie contract and $28 mill for the last two years. Set for life.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/bulls-offseason-primer-chicago-betting-on-josh-giddey-coby-white-and-a-summer-reset/ar-AA1DeWAJ

Marks also quoted $22M per year, I believe this is accurate. Extension maximum is 140% of the final year with 8% raises.
White makes $12.888M his final year but maximums always include incentives no matter how unlikely like being MVP. Coby's contract was heavily incentivized. When signed Shams & Woj reported two completely different #s $33M vs $40M, KC clarified the difference between the two sources was unlikely bonuses/incentives. Using the incentive # of $40M, his final year was probably more than $14M (vs him actually making $12.8).

$14.3M at 140% with 8% raises looks like

$20M
$21M
$23M
$25M

But I think this is irrelevant, I would never sign something like this as Coby White. This is Bojan Bagdanovic money.

[Infinity2152]

My main problem with trading Coby (assuming we don’t get the Isiah Thomas, Billy King, Arturas haul) is that it’s likely the next 4Y will be the best of his career.

My main problem with resigning him is any jump to perennial stardom would be a significant/far-fetched rise in consistency and ceiling that he hasn’t shown in his 6 years. That’s a lot of sample size. At this point, even if he has a Lauri/Utah revenge season next year (in his contract year, sigh), you can easily foresee a drop back down to reality. He’s a career 13.4 PER guard with weak defense. Even with his gradual improvement, that is ways away from any young top-10 guard, who leaves 15 PER in the dust after 2-3 seasons.

Anyway, given this dilemma, I trust that AK will do the worst thing possible. Overpay him and watch us struggle with no real #1 scoring option, or trade him for Zion.

IMO Coby won’t accept this eligible max, but to me even that amount is slightly rich. He’s consistently started seasons SO flat. And he also finishes his seasons on a flat note. He also tends to play well only 1 half of a game. Those are the 2 most important times in the NBA- opening month: getting a good start against motivated healthy teams in November, and the mid April playoffs. If you’re gonna show off your peak game in March every season, all you are is a rich man’s Kilpatrick.

The full season averages don’t lie. He had INCREDIBLE numbers in March, and they still didn’t make his season averages look exceptional. 15.5 PER and -0.5 BPM sounds like a rising star rookie, not a 6-year vet.

Doesn't the amount he gets paid figure into whether he's worth it, though? $20-$25 mill is average starter/good sixth man money. Per was 12.5 two years ago, 14.5 last year, 15.5 this year. Seems like he is improving, by that metric. $20-$25 mil is fair money. People expecting him to be a number 1 scorer capable of leading us should be projecting $40-$60 mill, that's what those guys are getting in year 6 nowadays. I'm looking at this like a Lou Will/Jamal Crawford type contract, not Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady.

Last year Zach started the season and played 25 games. This season Zach played the first 42 games. May not be just coincidence or streakiness that Coby's trends up when he's not on the floor with Zach in the second half of the season, or he started the two seasons at a lower level. Not playing with Zach seemed to unlock Giddey pretty quickly.

You think trading Coby for Zion is one of the worst things possible, but he's not good enough to keep? You must REALLY not want Zion, lol!

[Infinity2152]

Side note, rumors of why Bol Bol has been chained to the bench have come out. Was getting good minutes until March 12th. There was an in game scuffle between Mason Plumlee and Steven Adams. Other teammates jumped in and Bol Bol was shooting layups. Coach Bud was irate. Any chance the reason Smith can't get on the floor is equally as petty? Guess not joining a fight and practicing shots is unpardonable. He was supposed to chokeslam somebody, lol. This was Steven Adams and Mason Plumlee mind you, not Steven Adams and Devin Booker. Everybody knows most NBA scuffles are over in 10 seconds or less. and no real punches thrown.

I could see yelling at him and benching him a game or two, but locking him to the bench indefinitely when he's playing the best basketball of his career and your team is losing just seems ultra petty.