Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

[Villepoy]

Among PFs Lauri ranks 7th in scoring, 15th in rebounds and 4th in eFG% this season. I know Lauri's not much of an inside presence, but I wouldn't rank him that low (4th quartile) just because of help D.

PS. The statistically best PF I could find for under 10M per was Dougie McBuckets and he would be a serious downgrade.

[Swuul]

Among PFs Lauri ranks 7th in scoring, 15th in rebounds and 4th in eFG% this season. I know Lauri's not much of an inside presence, but I wouldn't rank him that low (4th quartile) just because of help D.

The consensus here seems to be Lauri needs to put up on average 28 points and get 10 rebounds per game to be considered a 3rd quartile (ie to deserve a 20 mio/year contract) PF. It has been clarified here several times that if he puts up less than 28/10, any limp veteran getting paid 8 mio/year can put up similar numbers.

[kapo]

Its not just his body. It seems that someone in his camp has tried to tell him he is a 1980's shooting guard. That's how he has developed his skills and plays when he is on the court. There are SF's out there with more rounded games. Some of the interviews out of Finland seem to indicate all of this was on purpose.

The thing that is lost here is that Lauri might be agile for certain venues but the NBA is a completely different world. Your typical SG/SF/PF is pretty dam athletic and is going to put Lauri at a speed/quickness disadvantage. Lauri's advantage was always going to be that he was quick for a 7 footer even in the NBA. Unfortunately, he hasn't played to his advantage.

I realize you don't know what you're talking about. In Finland, it has been a general concern with Lauri's former coaches or in general discussion, that Lauri's game in the US will be simplified to a shooters role. This discussion has been going on for five years. While it has been recognized that Lauri needs more strength (when he went overseas), there has also been concern that Lauri’s mobility and agility will suffer. This has been evident in their interviews and speeches over the past five years. However, they have stressed that first Arizona and now the Bulls and their coaching staff are responsible for Lauri’s development and they will no longer interfere with it. To realize this you need to understand finnish state of mind. We trust the coaching and the system.

Reminder, this was Lauri five years ago without any US couching just before going to Arizona. Finnish coaching and Lauris "inner circle" made him that player the rest after that is on Arizona and Bulls coaching. Yes the level of competition is different in that clip but in my point of view Lauri does similar things now but in NBA level of competition. Hes a lot stronger and little bit taller but I think hes movement was more fluent and agile five years ago. Moves, style and the shot selection is similar (at least in the good day).

Watch on YouTube

I realize that you don't know what you are talking about.

There is an interview floating around from years ago where the Finnish people around Markkanen were saying that they didn't want him to have a post game and that, like you, they wanted to focus on his mobility and agility.

If you actually watch Markkanen on an NBA court, he isn't particularly fast or agile for an NBA player and never was. This is the big leagues where every player has a massive physical advantage over most of humanity. The TNT crew was going on about it recently how only 4900 human beings in history have ever set foot on an NBA court.

There are discussions on this website about Brian Scalabrine. Scal was largely considered an unathletic joke as an NBA player. There were some videos of him circulating playing non NBA (but quality) players and absolutely humiliating them.

You showing me a video of Lauri dominating a bunch of stiffs that can't move kind of reaffirms my point. It really seems that the people around Lauri don't understand the difference between eurobasket and the NBA.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2898029-former-bulls-pf-nikola-mirotic-wins-mvp-of-spains-acb-league-with-fc-barcelona

I'll even point to a guy like Mirotic who wasn't a terrible NBA player but he was kind of a liability for playoff teams. He goes back to Spain and wins MVP because the players there are just a little slower, smaller and less athletic.

IMO, this consistently terrible advice has hurt Markkanen. He is legitimately huge and for that size is pretty quick. He certainly has a place in the NBA but he needs to play to his strengths. He is easily having his best season right now and if you read back he is actually doing things I have been calling for for years (despite me not knowing what I am talking about). I give both Markkanen and BD a ton of credit for this. If he continues to build on it, he will be a pretty good player.

You are missing the point. Seems that your fixed on thinking about the level of competition and don't focus to the point and look how he moves... You can evaluate movement and agility even when playing on empty floor it doesn't matter who he plays against, just watch how he moves, how he carries himself, how he runs, how he changes direction, how he jumps, how he handles his body when hit and gone out of balance. The "bulking up" and getting more clumsy started in arizona... I am personally disappointed. I thought American coaches would have been able to develop Lauri’s strength, core strength and speed without making him more clumsy but I was wrong and yes Lauri was just following the training plans of Miller, Hoidberg and Boylen. Boylen even came to Finland to see that Lauri is following the plan.

[sco]

I agree that the Bulls f'd up his development. I am impressed with BD's development of many of the players, I just looked and was pleasantly surprised that he's shooting 40% from 3 for the season. While it is not the ONLY thing for him, it is IMO, the foundation to him becoming a guy who I'd pay $16-$18M for because the rest of his game feeds of his 3pt game on offense. On defense, I'm seeing some improvement. If the keeps those 3's at 40%, improves his defense a bit more and can stay healthy between now and the deadline, I'm good trying to keep him. If he gets injured for any period of time or regresses, I'll take a 2nd rounder and move on.

[coldfish]

I realize you don't know what you're talking about. In Finland, it has been a general concern with Lauri's former coaches or in general discussion, that Lauri's game in the US will be simplified to a shooters role. This discussion has been going on for five years. While it has been recognized that Lauri needs more strength (when he went overseas), there has also been concern that Lauri’s mobility and agility will suffer. This has been evident in their interviews and speeches over the past five years. However, they have stressed that first Arizona and now the Bulls and their coaching staff are responsible for Lauri’s development and they will no longer interfere with it. To realize this you need to understand finnish state of mind. We trust the coaching and the system.

Reminder, this was Lauri five years ago without any US couching just before going to Arizona. Finnish coaching and Lauris "inner circle" made him that player the rest after that is on Arizona and Bulls coaching. Yes the level of competition is different in that clip but in my point of view Lauri does similar things now but in NBA level of competition. Hes a lot stronger and little bit taller but I think hes movement was more fluent and agile five years ago. Moves, style and the shot selection is similar (at least in the good day).

Watch on YouTube

I realize that you don't know what you are talking about.

There is an interview floating around from years ago where the Finnish people around Markkanen were saying that they didn't want him to have a post game and that, like you, they wanted to focus on his mobility and agility.

If you actually watch Markkanen on an NBA court, he isn't particularly fast or agile for an NBA player and never was. This is the big leagues where every player has a massive physical advantage over most of humanity. The TNT crew was going on about it recently how only 4900 human beings in history have ever set foot on an NBA court.

There are discussions on this website about Brian Scalabrine. Scal was largely considered an unathletic joke as an NBA player. There were some videos of him circulating playing non NBA (but quality) players and absolutely humiliating them.

You showing me a video of Lauri dominating a bunch of stiffs that can't move kind of reaffirms my point. It really seems that the people around Lauri don't understand the difference between eurobasket and the NBA.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2898029-former-bulls-pf-nikola-mirotic-wins-mvp-of-spains-acb-league-with-fc-barcelona

I'll even point to a guy like Mirotic who wasn't a terrible NBA player but he was kind of a liability for playoff teams. He goes back to Spain and wins MVP because the players there are just a little slower, smaller and less athletic.

IMO, this consistently terrible advice has hurt Markkanen. He is legitimately huge and for that size is pretty quick. He certainly has a place in the NBA but he needs to play to his strengths. He is easily having his best season right now and if you read back he is actually doing things I have been calling for for years (despite me not knowing what I am talking about). I give both Markkanen and BD a ton of credit for this. If he continues to build on it, he will be a pretty good player.

You are missing the point. Seems that your fixed on thinking about the level of competition and don't focus to the point and look how he moves... You can evaluate movement and agility even when playing on empty floor it doesn't matter who he plays against, just watch how he moves, how he carries himself, how he runs, how he changes direction, how he jumps, how he handles his body when hit and gone out of balance. The "bulking up" and getting more clumsy started in arizona... I am personally disappointed. I thought American coaches would have been able to develop Lauri’s strength, core strength and speed without making him more clumsy but I was wrong and yes Lauri was just following the training plans of Miller, Hoidberg and Boylen. Boylen even came to Finland to see that Lauri is following the plan.

I obviously disagree. Watching the NBA on TV is frequently misleading. Unfortunately everyone is a huge, athletic freak so they don't stick out from each other. Watching a game live, particularly close gives you a completely different perspective. Your typical NBA player is bigger and faster than anything you have ever encountered (at least for me). Even the best basketball players that you run into growing up pale in comparison.

Lauri's speed is outright slow for an NBA player. Any loss due to his weight is marginal. Beyond that, he doesn't have the otherworldly handle that many NBA players do. He was never, ever going to be a perimeter player in the NBA.

Lauri is in the NBA because he is huge. A legit 7 footer. His advantage over other players is that he is coordinated . . . for a 7 footer and he is quick . . . for a 7 footer. He unfortunately didn't do a good job developing his 7 footer skills though and that has limited him.

If Lauri was 6'8" with the same speed he had when he was younger and skills he has now, he might not even be in the NBA.

Edit add: Boylen was an idiot who hurt everyone in the organization including Lauri. I'm not going to disagree with you on that point.

[coldfish]

Among PFs Lauri ranks 7th in scoring, 15th in rebounds and 4th in eFG% this season. I know Lauri's not much of an inside presence, but I wouldn't rank him that low (4th quartile) just because of help D.

The consensus here seems to be Lauri needs to put up on average 28 points and get 10 rebounds per game to be considered a 3rd quartile (ie to deserve a 20 mio/year contract) PF. It has been clarified here several times that if he puts up less than 28/10, any limp veteran getting paid 8 mio/year can put up similar numbers.

IMO, the consensus right now is that if Lauri keeps playing like he currently is, he is worth more than $20m per year and some team is going to give it to him if its not Chicago.

[MGB8]

Among PFs Lauri ranks 7th in scoring, 15th in rebounds and 4th in eFG% this season. I know Lauri's not much of an inside presence, but I wouldn't rank him that low (4th quartile) just because of help D.

The consensus here seems to be Lauri needs to put up on average 28 points and get 10 rebounds per game to be considered a 3rd quartile (ie to deserve a 20 mio/year contract) PF. It has been clarified here several times that if he puts up less than 28/10, any limp veteran getting paid 8 mio/year can put up similar numbers.

IMO, the consensus right now is that if Lauri keeps playing like he currently is, he is worth more than $20m per year and some team is going to give it to him if its not Chicago.

IMO, if he keeps playing like he is right now theN 18-20M per year is about right. Keepi in mind that Christian Wood is playing better than Lauri and is making 13M per year - but that is a “value” contract. Sabonis is also playing better than Lauri and signed a 4 year, 77M dollar deal that started this year... and the cap is going to be flat. If Sabonis is worth 19M per year, Lauri is worth 17-18M per year... if he sustains the current level of play, improves a bit on defense, doesn’t get hurt, etc.

[FranchisePlayer]

Among PFs Lauri ranks 7th in scoring, 15th in rebounds and 4th in eFG% this season. I know Lauri's not much of an inside presence, but I wouldn't rank him that low (4th quartile) just because of help D.

PS. The statistically best PF I could find for under 10M per was Dougie McBuckets and he would be a serious downgrade.

One of the main complaints about Lauri has been "he's a streaky scorer". Now that he's consistent, "they" say he's no good in defensive end.

When he scores and IS good in defense, it's either lack of rebounds or assists. Some posters just have expectations on another planet.

[nomorezorro]

after 8 games, we can finally hang the "lauri markkanen is a consistent scorer" banner!

[FranchisePlayer]

That sounds MUCH more rational than to argue after 7 wins why Lavine is MVP, All-NBA and at minimum All-Star worthy.

[ZOMG]

after 8 games, we can finally hang the "lauri markkanen is a consistent scorer" banner!

An inconsistent scorer is someone who gets 4pts in one game, 25 the next.

When healthy, Lauri has been nothing but consistent his whole career.

[GoBlue72391]

As far as rebounding goes, Lauri isn't as bad as the 2 he got against the Hornets and he's not as good as the 9 per game he got his 2nd year playing next to Robin Lopez in 32.3 mpg. He's averaging 6.5 on 29.6 mpg (7.9 rpg per 36) this season. I think 9, maybe 9.5, is his ceiling rebounding wise per 36. Solid, but not great for a player his size.

He's had big rebounding performances without Lopez aiding him (17 rebounds against the Hornets last season comes to mind), so I do think he's capable enough on the boards. Seems like it's a lack of consistency boxing out and letting his nearby teammates get the defensive boards, because he does seem pretty active on the offensive glass.

His on-ball defense is pretty decent all things considered. He seems to contest shots well enough, but still gets scored on a fair amount while doing so. I assume that's due to his lackluster length/wing span. His IQ and effort level with help defense look much improved, though he still leaves a lot to be desired.

I think he can keep making gradual improvements as he continues to learn Billy's defense (so he's thinking less and rotating off instinct) and approach an overall average-ish level defensively, which is probably his best case scenario on that end of the floor and acceptable for an efficient 20+ ppg stretch big.

Playmaking is where he needs to make the biggest leap, although it's not an absolute necessity for him to become a tertiary playmaker, though it would obviously help. He's shown flashes (4 assists in the 1st game against the Hawks), but nothing approaching consistency.

I really liked the lobs he threw to WCJ and DG early in the season out of the 4/5 P&R, but I don't think we've attempted that since then. I'd like to see that a little more. With WCJ out, I'd like to see us use Lauri like we do WCJ, looking to pass between the FT line and top of the key. See what he can do with that for a few games just to get an idea of what he's capable of.

I do love the fact that he's much more involved in the offense, has been much more aggressive, and has looked like a borderline elite finisher this season. He's shooting 75% at the rim, which is 7.5% higher than his previous career best. I don't know where 75% ranks among bigs in the league, but it sounds elite aside from the guys like Capela and Mitchell Robinson who score pretty much exclusively off dunks and lobs. I would like to see him get more than just 6 two point FGA per game.

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[Dez]

Among PFs Lauri ranks 7th in scoring, 15th in rebounds and 4th in eFG% this season. I know Lauri's not much of an inside presence, but I wouldn't rank him that low (4th quartile) just because of help D.

PS. The statistically best PF I could find for under 10M per was Dougie McBuckets and he would be a serious downgrade.

One of the main complaints about Lauri has been "he's a streaky scorer". Now that he's consistent, "they" say he's no good in defensive end.

When he scores and IS good in defense, it's either lack of rebounds or assists. Some posters just have expectations on another planet.

The main complaint has always been his defense and still continues to be, he's shown a little more effort at times but he's still god-awful in that department.

Having expectations of a 7 footer being able to grab rebounds at a respectable rate is considered "expectations on another planet"? It's these sorts of things that make people roll their eyes at the Lauri fanatics, they claim basic things that Lauri should be doing as hating or unreasonable and everyone else is bias.

He's 7 feet tall, he grabbed 2 rebounds that is pathetic.

He didn't have a single assist, LaVine and White get blasted as selfish constantly by those same Lauri fans yet this doesn't happen with Lauri. Why is that?

Try applying the same level of criticism to every player that Lauri gets (ie none) or the reverse, criticize Lauri to the extent that LaVine, White and WCJ get criticized.

[DroseReturnChi]

Among PFs Lauri ranks 7th in scoring, 15th in rebounds and 4th in eFG% this season. I know Lauri's not much of an inside presence, but I wouldn't rank him that low (4th quartile) just because of help D.

PS. The statistically best PF I could find for under 10M per was Dougie McBuckets and he would be a serious downgrade.

One of the main complaints about Lauri has been "he's a streaky scorer". Now that he's consistent, "they" say he's no good in defensive end.

When he scores and IS good in defense, it's either lack of rebounds or assists. Some posters just have expectations on another planet.

i mean they want him to perform like a max player hence why they pile on he only got 2 rebounds counting bad stats to nitpick.
what more concerning is Lavine's 5to a game or Whites daily 3 for 10. These type of stats costs the game.

[MGB8]

Lauri stans overrating him and ignoring serious weaknesses and limitations - not a great dribbler, not a great interior scorer, not quick enough to defend 3s consistently, not particularly explosive, good but not elite outside shooter, not a great rebounder, middling at best defender with little help defense... make me want to want him to fail.

He isn’t a special NBA talent. Period. Legit NBA player? Sure. Meaningfully better talent than WCJ? Yes. But ultimately utterly replaceable? Yup.

[MrSparkle]

Lauri stans overrating him and ignoring serious weaknesses and limitations - not a great dribbler, not a great interior scorer, not quick enough to defend 3s consistently, not particularly explosive, good but not elite outside shooter, not a great rebounder, middling at best defender with little help defense... make me want to want him to fail.

He isn’t a special NBA talent. Period. Legit NBA player? Sure. Meaningfully better talent than WCJ? Yes. But ultimately utterly replaceable? Yup.

He is a major shot-blocking/rebounding liability in regular season games against sub-500 teams. There is a major disconnect with his fans when they don’t consider how much harder it is to defend the paint against the big-boy teams in post-season.

He’s a PF Korver/Dunleavy with less IQ/skills. Atleast ATL and CHI could use their length and savviness to be slightly more competent SG defensive sieves, but pretty much every deep playoff was the same story. Exploit them to the point where their spacing is negligible. 95% chance of scoring a 2P on a defensive sieve will beat a 35% 3P shooter’s efficiency.

So for MLE or less I’m all ears. For a starting salary, he doesn’t score enough ways to warrant a starter’s salary.

[Jiipee84]

Lauri stans overrating him and ignoring serious weaknesses and limitations - not a great dribbler, not a great interior scorer, not quick enough to defend 3s consistently, not particularly explosive, good but not elite outside shooter, not a great rebounder, middling at best defender with little help defense... make me want to want him to fail.

He isn’t a special NBA talent. Period. Legit NBA player? Sure. Meaningfully better talent than WCJ? Yes. But ultimately utterly replaceable? Yup.

Thank god i'm not watching Lakers game because i knew Lauri will suck vs Lebron and AD.
Lauri's accident in games like vs Lakers is that AD is not Kristaps Porzingis.

KP is probably only NBA player who isn't cooked Lauri yet but someday even that will happen.

[Swuul]

He isn’t a special NBA talent. Period. Legit NBA player? Sure. Meaningfully better talent than WCJ? Yes. But ultimately utterly replaceable? Yup.

The 4th quartile PF's in NBA make 13 mio/year or less. Bulls offered Lauri 11 mio/year, so they seem to agree with that view. Any 4th quartile PF can be replaced by a MLE veteran without there being a huge difference (be it for better or worse), as they too are 4th quartile players. The 4th quartile players are the bench players after all; better players than anywhere else in the basketball world, but in NBA relegated to the bench.

3rd quartile PF's in NBA earn from 14 to 20 mio/year. They can be replaced by MLE veterans (at least for a match or two), but there will be a noticeable difference, and game-tactics have to adjusted accordingly. The third quartile PF's are in starting five in bad teams, and bench players with reasonable minutes in a good team.

Lauri "stans" before the season thought he is in the third quartile, Lauri's agent asked for 20 mio/year, and that seems to be what many people closely following him thought would be what he is worth. I for one thought so, I have to admit, based on how he has played in NBA so far. Ie definitively a starter caliber player in Bulls, but not so necessarily in a better NBA team.

Lauri haters here however demand Lauri to play on all-star level to deserve a 3rd quartile pay. That seems to me quite unfair. Lauri is not an all-star, that is quite obvious, and as such it is ridiculous for the haters to require him to play as AD or gtfo.

[dougthonus]

The consensus here seems to be Lauri needs to put up on average 28 points and get 10 rebounds per game to be considered a 3rd quartile (ie to deserve a 20 mio/year contract) PF. It has been clarified here several times that if he puts up less than 28/10, any limp veteran getting paid 8 mio/year can put up similar numbers.

Really? Who said that anywhere?

[dougthonus]

The 4th quartile PF's in NBA make 13 mio/year or less. Bulls offered Lauri 11 mio/year, so they seem to agree with that view. Any 4th quartile PF can be replaced by a MLE veteran without there being a huge difference (be it for better or worse), as they too are 4th quartile players. The 4th quartile players are the bench players after all; better players than anywhere else in the basketball world, but in NBA relegated to the bench.

3rd quartile PF's in NBA earn from 14 to 20 mio/year. They can be replaced by MLE veterans (at least for a match or two), but there will be a noticeable difference, and game-tactics have to adjusted accordingly. The third quartile PF's are in starting five in bad teams, and bench players with reasonable minutes in a good team.

Lauri "stans" before the season thought he is in the third quartile, Lauri's agent asked for 20 mio/year, and that seems to be what many people closely following him thought would be what he is worth. I for one thought so, I have to admit, based on how he has played in NBA so far. Ie definitively a starter caliber player in Bulls, but not so necessarily in a better NBA team.

Lauri haters here however demand Lauri to play on all-star level to deserve a 3rd quartile pay. That seems to me quite unfair. Lauri is not an all-star, that is quite obvious, and as such it is ridiculous for the haters to require him to play as AD or gtfo.

I don't know if you misunderstand what a quartile is, but:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/contracts/power-forward/

But there are 90 players on this list, if we call the first quartile of PFs the top 22 highest paid players then every player making 13M and up is in the 1st quartile of PFs. The fourth quarter median salary is the minimum. The 3rd quartile is around 4M. No one is suggesting Lauri should be paid in the 3rd or 4th quartile of PFs.

Also, Bulls and Lauri were reportedly off by 4M, I was speaking to KC Johnson, and he suspected (but did not know for sure) that they were at 16/20 in final numbers.