2018 draft 3.0. #7, #22 - Merged

[Indomitable]

By the way what happened to the post where people insult Porter. You told me and johnny you were going to post it. Still waiting.

That wasn't him it was somebody else.

My bad

[johnnyvann840]

He was a better hs player than Bagley and Ayton
on i
What, u think it takes less than a year to regress to Marquis Daniels status?

If we were to go by that then WCJ should be the #1 overall pick because he destroyed Ayton in high school 15 months ago and Ayton is widely considered the consensus #1 pick. Let's just forget everything that happened in the last year, including a herniated disc, microdiscetomy surgery and some pretty horrible play in the NCAA Tourney. Because he was better in high school than Bagley or Ayton. Sounds like sound logic to me.

[NDave79]

I think the high release point on Wendell Carter's jumper is going to give it a chance to become a major weapon for him. Conversely, JJJ's form concerns me (one of the few concerns I have). Not that he can't be a great shooter, but I question how versatile the type of offense he can create with it.

For example, Wendell Carter's jumper reminds my of Anthony Davis. Anthony Davis can shoot basically falling in any direction. I have a hard time envisioning JJJ doing a turn around fade away with his form or much off the dribble.

However, I will add, JJJ's form may be more conducive to becoming a high level NBA 3 point shooter. It's just easier to generate power with a lower release.

[GimmeDat]

I think Okobo just blew up - he had 44 on 17 shots. Would be an awesome pick at 22 if he's available, see hin rising beyond that though.

[Jcool0]

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[kulaz3000]

Carter does have great form on his jumper. A bit of a slow release but otherwise looks great. Those vids warmed me up to him a bit, certainly more than the "big to big" passing one that was posted. Outside shooting is vastly more important in today's NBA, even for a big.

I was also more impressed with those Carter videos than any other I’ve seen. Still left a few questions:

-His release is slow, as you said, and gone are the days when centers can expect wide open jumpers by virtue of being centers. Curious as to whether he can speed it up.

-I don’t think he has the foot speed to attack close outs. It’s easier to recover on a shooter when you can close hard without fear of a blow by. Particularly if his release is slow.

You're points aren't incorrect, but I think they shouldn't be too heavily considered for a center in the NBA which he will end up playing. How many centres have super quick releases - have you seen Horford put up a jumper? It takes him the entire shot clock to get into for, and eventually release the ball. His shot release is fine from your center.

Attacking close outs is not strictly dependent on foot speed or quickness, it has just as much to do with awareness and the angle in which you choose to attack the close out, this is actually something Lauri is pretty good at. He isn't the fastest player, but he is extremely intelligent with his attacking angles, that he gets his defenders off balance and blows by them - it makes it seem that he is a much better athlete than he really is.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Carter does have great form on his jumper. A bit of a slow release but otherwise looks great. Those vids warmed me up to him a bit, certainly more than the "big to big" passing one that was posted. Outside shooting is vastly more important in today's NBA, even for a big.

I was also more impressed with those Carter videos than any other I’ve seen. Still left a few questions:

-His release is slow, as you said, and gone are the days when centers can expect wide open jumpers by virtue of being centers. Curious as to whether he can speed it up.

-I don’t think he has the foot speed to attack close outs. It’s easier to recover on a shooter when you can close hard without fear of a blow by. Particularly if his release is slow.

You're points aren't incorrect, but I think they shouldn't be too heavily considered for a center in the NBA which he will end up playing. How many centres have super quick releases - have you seen Horford put up a jumper? It takes him the entire shot clock to get into for, and eventually release the ball. His shot release is fine from your center.

Attacking close outs is not strictly dependent on foot speed or quickness, it has just as much to do with awareness and the angle in which you choose to attack the close out, this is actually something Lauri is pretty good at. He isn't the fastest player, but he is extremely intelligent with his attacking angles, that he gets his defenders off balance and blows by them - it makes it seem that he is a much better athlete than he really is.

Foot speed isn’t the only ingredient to attacking close outs... but it’s the ingredient Carter’s missing. He’s an intelligent player that seemingly understands angles, and he’s reasonably coordinated. If you have another explanation as to why he never put the ball on the floor when his jumpshot was contested, I’m all ears.

Oh and both Lauri and Horford are a good deal quicker with the ball than Carter.

[TheFinishSniper]

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[kulaz3000]

Foot speed isn’t the only ingredient to attacking close outs... but it’s the ingredient Carter’s missing. He’s an intelligent player that seemingly understands angles, and he’s reasonably coordinated. If you have another explanation as to why he never put the ball on the floor when his jumpshot was contested, I’m all ears.

Oh and both Lauri and Horford are a good deal quicker with the ball than Carter.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Lauri didn't really have all that much opportunity to put the ball on the floor when he was in college, and we saw more glimpses of it during his international play.

Perhaps he just wasn't afford the opportunity to do that in college, which wouldn't surprise me because college head coaches can hold certain players back for the benefit of the 'team'.

I'm going to hold back on firm judgement on this aspect of his game until he plays in the NBA.

[NDave79]

I wonder if Wendell Carter hadn't played with Bagley, if we might be thinking Demarcus Cousins with better D and wayyyyyyyy better intangibles (as his upside) as opposed to comparisons like Horford.

Carter is a little smaller, but quite a bit more mobile and explosive in my opinion. Here is a comparison of Carter and Cousin's freshman years on a per 40 minute basis. Cousin's numbers will be in quotes.

Pts- 20.2 (25.8)
Rbs- 13.5 (16.8)
Asts- 3.0 (1.7)
Blk- 3.1 (3.0)
Stls- 1.7 (1.2)
2pt%- .586 (.565)
3pt%- .413 (.167)
FT%- .738 (.604)
TOV- 3.0 (3.5)
PF- 4.2 (5.5)

I think if you take Bagley off the team, Carter's points and rebounds likely get close to Cousin's. Now, Cousin's size advantage shouldn't be glossed over. He is definitely a bigger person, but the height (6'8.75" vs 6'9.5") and wingspan's (7'4.5" vs 7'5.75") aren't that far off. Also, Carter's shooting seems to be further along at the same age.

Honestly, the difference in size and mobility probably makes it a bad comp, but It just got me thinking that maybe Carter's offensive upside is higher than I've been thinking.

[TheFinishSniper]

Foot speed isn’t the only ingredient to attacking close outs... but it’s the ingredient Carter’s missing. He’s an intelligent player that seemingly understands angles, and he’s reasonably coordinated. If you have another explanation as to why he never put the ball on the floor when his jumpshot was contested, I’m all ears.

Oh and both Lauri and Horford are a good deal quicker with the ball than Carter.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Lauri didn't really have all that much opportunity to put the ball on the floor when he was in college, and we saw more glimpses of it during his international play.

Perhaps he just wasn't afford the opportunity to do that in college, which wouldn't surprise me because college head coaches can hold certain players back for the benefit of the 'team'.

I'm going to hold back on firm judgement on this aspect of his game until he plays in the NBA.

This board did speculate Lauri was able to put ball on the floor to some extent based on his FIBA U-20 highlights long time before Eurobasket performance. And that he was more than catch and shoot stretch 4 he was on college. So to dig deeper about can Carter do that you would need to see highschool footage. If he couldnt put ball on the floor during highschool there is good guarantee he wont ever be able do it in pros.

But then again Lauri is unicorn 7 feet stretch 4 with quick shot and Wendel is for big nothing special.

[kulaz3000]

Foot speed isn’t the only ingredient to attacking close outs... but it’s the ingredient Carter’s missing. He’s an intelligent player that seemingly understands angles, and he’s reasonably coordinated. If you have another explanation as to why he never put the ball on the floor when his jumpshot was contested, I’m all ears.

Oh and both Lauri and Horford are a good deal quicker with the ball than Carter.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Lauri didn't really have all that much opportunity to put the ball on the floor when he was in college, and we saw more glimpses of it during his international play.

Perhaps he just wasn't afford the opportunity to do that in college, which wouldn't surprise me because college head coaches can hold certain players back for the benefit of the 'team'.

I'm going to hold back on firm judgement on this aspect of his game until he plays in the NBA.

This board did speculate Lauri was able to put ball on the floor to some extent based on his FIBA U-20 highlights long time before Eurobasket performance. And that he was more than catch and shoot stretch 4 he was on college. So to dig deeper about can Carter do that you would need to see highschool footage. If he couldnt put ball on the floor during highschool there is good guarantee he wont ever be able do it in pros.

But then again Lauri is unicorn 7 feet stretch 4 and Wendel is for big nothing special.

This conversation is all fine and good, about whether Carter can or can't put the ball on the floor effectively, but how often do we want our centre to be putting the ball on the floor?

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Foot speed isn’t the only ingredient to attacking close outs... but it’s the ingredient Carter’s missing. He’s an intelligent player that seemingly understands angles, and he’s reasonably coordinated. If you have another explanation as to why he never put the ball on the floor when his jumpshot was contested, I’m all ears.

Oh and both Lauri and Horford are a good deal quicker with the ball than Carter.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Lauri didn't really have all that much opportunity to put the ball on the floor when he was in college, and we saw more glimpses of it during his international play.

Perhaps he just wasn't afford the opportunity to do that in college, which wouldn't surprise me because college head coaches can hold certain players back for the benefit of the 'team'.

I'm going to hold back on firm judgement on this aspect of his game until he plays in the NBA.

No, Lauri attacked closeouts in college. He’s obviously more comfortable putting the ball on the floor in the NBA, but the seeds were there.

My issue with Carter is I don’t recall him seeing him do it ever. Not live. Not in highlights. And that’s going back to high school, so it’s not a Duke thing. If someone has a link I’ve overlooked, please hit me with it. I would genuinely prefer to like the guy who we’re likely to draft at 7.

[kulaz3000]

I wonder if Wendell Carter hadn't played with Bagley, if we might be thinking Demarcus Cousins with better D and wayyyyyyyy better intangibles (as his upside) as opposed to comparisons like Horford.

Carter is a little smaller, but quite a bit more mobile and explosive in my opinion. Here is a comparison of Carter and Cousin's freshman years on a per 40 minute basis. Cousin's numbers will be in quotes.

Pts- 20.2 (25.8)
Rbs- 13.5 (16.8)
Asts- 3.0 (1.7)
Blk- 3.1 (3.0)
Stls- 1.7 (1.2)
2pt%- .586 (.565)
3pt%- .413 (.167)
FT%- .738 (.604)
TOV- 3.0 (3.5)
PF- 4.2 (5.5)

I think if you take Bagley off the team, Carter's points and rebounds likely get close to Cousin's. Now, Cousin's size advantage shouldn't be glossed over. He is definitely a bigger person, but the height (6'8.75" vs 6'9.5") and wingspan's (7'4.5" vs 7'5.75") aren't that far off. Also, Carter's shooting seems to be further along at the same age.

Honestly, the difference in size and mobility probably makes it a bad comp, but It just got me thinking that maybe Carter's offensive upside is higher than I've been thinking.

Oh wow, I didn't realize Cousins was that short. I thought for sure he was at least 6'11. Interesting. That's a testament to him I guess, that he plays a lot bigger than he really is.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Lauri didn't really have all that much opportunity to put the ball on the floor when he was in college, and we saw more glimpses of it during his international play.

Perhaps he just wasn't afford the opportunity to do that in college, which wouldn't surprise me because college head coaches can hold certain players back for the benefit of the 'team'.

I'm going to hold back on firm judgement on this aspect of his game until he plays in the NBA.

This board did speculate Lauri was able to put ball on the floor to some extent based on his FIBA U-20 highlights long time before Eurobasket performance. And that he was more than catch and shoot stretch 4 he was on college. So to dig deeper about can Carter do that you would need to see highschool footage. If he couldnt put ball on the floor during highschool there is good guarantee he wont ever be able do it in pros.

But then again Lauri is unicorn 7 feet stretch 4 and Wendel is for big nothing special.

This conversation is all fine and good, about whether Carter can or can't put the ball on the floor effectively, but how often do we want our centre to be putting the ball on the floor?

If he’s going to space the floor and not just be a throwback C that pushes Lauri to the perimeter full time? Fairly often, I’d say.

[Hangtime84]

I wonder if Wendell Carter hadn't played with Bagley, if we might be thinking Demarcus Cousins with better D (as his upside) as opposed to comparisons like Horford.

Carter is a little smaller, but quite a bit more mobile and explosive in my opinion. Here is a comparison of Carter and Cousin's freshman years on a per 40 minute basis. Cousin's numbers will be in quotes.

Pts- 20.2 (25.8)
Rbs- 13.5 (16.8)
Asts- 3.0 (1.7)
Blk- 3.1 (3.0)
Stls- 1.7 (1.2)
2pt%- .586 (.565)
3pt%- .413 (.167)
FT%- .738 (.604)
TOV- 3.0 (3.5)
PF- 4.2 (5.5)

I think if you take Bagley off the team, Carter's points and rebounds likely get close to Cousin's. Now, Cousin's size advantage shouldn't be glossed over. He is definitely a bigger person, but the height (6'8.75" vs 6'9.5") and wingspan's (7'4.5" vs 7'5.75") aren't that far off. Also, Carter's shooting seems to be further along at the same age.

Honestly, the difference in size and mobility probably makes it a bad comp, but It just got me thinking that maybe Carter's offensive upside is higher than I've been thinking.

One of the teammates at Duke Gary Trent Jr was quoted somewhere mentioning if Wendell Carter wasn't playing with Bagley he would have probably been a number 1 pick. I trust teammates who saw these guys practice everyday. But again someone would have to sacrifice

[TheFinishSniper]

This conversation is all fine and good, about whether Carter can or can't put the ball on the floor effectively, but how often do we want our centre to be putting the ball on the floor?

Well elite centers do it. Average or below average NBA center doesnt need to do it. And plan here is draft elite player or gem at #7. Because we wont get chance again drafting this high again. If we are planning to build around two bigs they better be both special and capable putting ball on the floor. Because otherwise that's disaster. You can play any average NBA C along Lauri and you get same effect on offense.

[NDave79]

Foot speed isn’t the only ingredient to attacking close outs... but it’s the ingredient Carter’s missing. He’s an intelligent player that seemingly understands angles, and he’s reasonably coordinated. If you have another explanation as to why he never put the ball on the floor when his jumpshot was contested, I’m all ears.

Oh and both Lauri and Horford are a good deal quicker with the ball than Carter.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Lauri didn't really have all that much opportunity to put the ball on the floor when he was in college, and we saw more glimpses of it during his international play.

Perhaps he just wasn't afford the opportunity to do that in college, which wouldn't surprise me because college head coaches can hold certain players back for the benefit of the 'team'.

I'm going to hold back on firm judgement on this aspect of his game until he plays in the NBA.

No, Lauri attacked closeouts in college. He’s obviously more comfortable putting the ball on the floor in the NBA, but the seeds were there.

My issue with Carter is I don’t recall him seeing him do it ever. Not live. Not in highlights. And that’s going back to high school, so it’s not a Duke thing. If someone has a link I’ve overlooked, please hit me with it. I would genuinely prefer to like the guy who we’re likely to draft at 7.

This isn't attacking a closeout, but I thought the play around 1:45 was a rather impressive display of ball handling and dexterity for someone his size.

Watch on YouTube

[NDave79]

I wonder if Wendell Carter hadn't played with Bagley, if we might be thinking Demarcus Cousins with better D and wayyyyyyyy better intangibles (as his upside) as opposed to comparisons like Horford.

Carter is a little smaller, but quite a bit more mobile and explosive in my opinion. Here is a comparison of Carter and Cousin's freshman years on a per 40 minute basis. Cousin's numbers will be in quotes.

Pts- 20.2 (25.8)
Rbs- 13.5 (16.8)
Asts- 3.0 (1.7)
Blk- 3.1 (3.0)
Stls- 1.7 (1.2)
2pt%- .586 (.565)
3pt%- .413 (.167)
FT%- .738 (.604)
TOV- 3.0 (3.5)
PF- 4.2 (5.5)

I think if you take Bagley off the team, Carter's points and rebounds likely get close to Cousin's. Now, Cousin's size advantage shouldn't be glossed over. He is definitely a bigger person, but the height (6'8.75" vs 6'9.5") and wingspan's (7'4.5" vs 7'5.75") aren't that far off. Also, Carter's shooting seems to be further along at the same age.

Honestly, the difference in size and mobility probably makes it a bad comp, but It just got me thinking that maybe Carter's offensive upside is higher than I've been thinking.

Oh wow, I didn't realize Cousins was that short. I thought for sure he was at least 6'11. Interesting. That's a testament to him I guess, that he plays a lot bigger than he really is.

To be clear, that's barefoot, so with shoes he is about 6'11".

[kulaz3000]

This conversation is all fine and good, about whether Carter can or can't put the ball on the floor effectively, but how often do we want our centre to be putting the ball on the floor?

Well elite centers do it. Average or below average NBA center doesnt need to do it. And plan here is draft elite player or gem at #7. Because we wont get chance again drafting this high again. If we are planning to build around two bigs they better be both special and capable putting ball on the floor. Because otherwise that's disaster. You can play any average NBA C along Lauri and you get same effect on offense.

I simply don’t think there’s is enough sample size to definitively say whether Carter can or can’t attack close outs is my point.