2025 Draft prospects - thread 3

[NocioniHomie]

DeRozan is one of the best scorers in the entire NBA despite not having a 3-ball and this board routinely complained about the impact his lack of shooting had on our offense.

But yeah - roll out the red carpet for CMB. A 6'7" center.

Since when was DD's problem his lack of 3?

Some good points here. IMO if Demar was an elite defender, he'd be elite. That said, CMB can't play the PF position and needs to be your C, I like him a lot less.

CMB is definitely an interesting prospect. On a different Bulls team, I like his fit. With Giddey in the picture, I like it much less so.

In a vacuum, every team would love to have a Draymond-level defender. But the offensive hub role a Draymond would occupy on our team would clash with Giddey's strengths. Not to mention, Draymond's offensive role might not be as heralded if he weren't playing with two of the greatest movement shooters of all time -- which we don't have. The players who best fit Giddey are #1 - shooters, #2 - athletes, #3 - above-average defenders.

This is why Matas' ceiling is so enticing next to Giddey - he could seriously check all 3.

It's also why Essengue is my top preference. We know he's #2 and #3 and his upside is much harder to find than the upside of a CMB-type.

Giddey fit -is also why I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan of Coward. He could check all 3 as well.

There's a lot of interesting prospects in this draft. Period. I don't ever recall looking at a draft board and legit liking 20-25 players. Point being - at #12 we have to swing for the highest upside Giddey fit. Some of the Cs are intriguing - but I think we can address rim-running complement just as easily at the deadline as we can in the offseason.

[2weekswithpay]

He can run and is a great passer

Both are nice to have, but these two skill sets do not stop a player from being a liability on offense.

Transition offense accounts for only a portion of scoring attempts. The Bulls ran more than anyone, and only 24.3% of our shot attempts were in transition.

Passing is also great, but you still need to be able to score to threaten defenses.

Josh Hart is good at both, and he was a complete liability in the halfcourt for the Knicks.

What do you want CMB to be able to do that he can't? Do you think shooting is what keeps him from being good on offense?

Become a respectable shooter from 3 or midrange, or become a great interior finisher.

Yeah. I doubt whoever drafts him will let him play out of the post and face up like he did at South Carolina. When you aren't the featured player, complementary skills like shooting become more important. Centers are the exception.

If the shooting never develops, is he good enough at the other aspects of the game to positively impact the team? I'm not sure.

[nomorezorro]

i generally agree that cmb and giddey aren't an ideal fit and would factor that into my evaluation of him for the bulls, but:

1) i don't think giddey is established enough that we can totally rule out prospects based on whether or not they complement his game.
2) i think it's totally possible for a reasonable talent evaluator to conclude CMB is a tier above the other prospects available on the board at 12, and if that's the case, i wouldn't want us to pass on him because of concerns about how he fits.
3) i don't see CMB as a guy who you'd deploy as an offensive hub next to draymond - he's a good passer, but he's not "run a meaningful amount of your offense through him" good. he'd start as a secondary creator and go from there, and i think it'd be prudent not to lean solely on giddey for halfcourt shot creation, so there is some synergy there.
4) obviously on the other end of the court, it's good to have a potential plus-plus defender playing alongside a questionable defender in giddey.

cmb still wouldn't be my first choice, but i've warmed to him a lot.

[Infinity2152]

We're at that point in the draft where people ignore what players are actually doing and speculating/wildly guessing on potential. CMB is 20. At 18 he shot 5 3pts, 0%. At 19 he shot 34, 26%. We're really focusing on a 19 yr old PF shooting. Bigs need to do so much more than shoot. Most of these players, you HOPE will be very good at some NBA skills, hopefully two way players. Shooting, rebounding, passing, man defense, help defense, CMB is almost certainly going to be above average at most of that for position. Do you have to be above average at EVERYTHING at 19? Does motor count as a skill? Very important to me, more so after Pat Will with the great physicals and shooting.

Essengue is currently my other top prospect. To me it's like the Tyson Chandler vs Elton Brand comparison, though. Essengue has better physicals, but a lot further to go in skills and CMB has just shown more consistent effectiveness at a very young age.

People keep talking about CMB is undersized but I'd rather have a 6'8 guy with a 7'2 wingspan than a 6'10 guy with a 6'10 wingspan. The shorter guy can likely guard smaller players better and still have as much or more shot blocking and more steals than the taller player. Standing reach of 8'10". Wingspan trumps height by a lot. And he's 239, heavier than a lot of taller players. Their heads being two inches higher won't help much if their arms don't reach higher.

[Jcool0]

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[CobysHairpick]

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I would've drafted LaMelo in a heartbeat. Hopefully Bailey falls to 12!

[LateNight]

A lot of people linking Sorber to the Bulls and the defense is nice, but on offense... Are we just expecting like a weaker version of Drum? He can’t stretch the floor, seems like he’d get bullied on the interior, and probably won’t get the positioning for all those crafty rebounds

Sorber does not get bullied in the interior. He's a beast at 6'10", 262 with 7'6" wingspan. He does the bullying, plus he is a solid rim protector, passer, with a good shooting touch. He can become a very good C for the next decade.

He doesn’t look that strong when I watch him. I’m not saying he’s totally weak, but I don’t think he’s going to impose his will on people the NBA. He doesn’t seem to move guys around so much as more around guys

But I’m far from an expert. He could be way better than I’m giving him credit for - that was just my first impression

[Jcool0]

A lot of people linking Sorber to the Bulls and the defense is nice, but on offense... Are we just expecting like a weaker version of Drum? He can’t stretch the floor, seems like he’d get bullied on the interior, and probably won’t get the positioning for all those crafty rebounds

Sorber does not get bullied in the interior. He's a beast at 6'10", 262 with 7'6" wingspan. He does the bullying, plus he is a solid rim protector, passer, with a good shooting touch. He can become a very good C for the next decade.

He doesn’t look that strong when I watch him. I’m not saying he’s totally weak, but I don’t think he’s going to impose his will on people the NBA. He doesn’t seem to move guys around so much as more around guys

But I’m far from an expert. He could be way better than I’m giving him credit for - that was just my first impression

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[LateNight]

A lot of people linking Sorber to the Bulls and the defense is nice, but on offense... Are we just expecting like a weaker version of Drum? He can’t stretch the floor, seems like he’d get bullied on the interior, and probably won’t get the positioning for all those crafty rebounds

Sorber does not get bullied in the interior. He's a beast at 6'10", 262 with 7'6" wingspan. He does the bullying, plus he is a solid rim protector, passer, with a good shooting touch. He can become a very good C for the next decade.

He gives me Duran vibes...good and bad.

Duren looked way stronger, more athletic and finished through contact. That’s what I’m not really seeing in sorber

[2weekswithpay]

Both are nice to have, but these two skill sets do not stop a player from being a liability on offense.

He's not an offensive liability; he's just not a good three point shooter right now. It'd be like saying Scottie Barnes is an offensive liability. There are more ways to a good NBA offense than making threes, and CMB does those things on top of being a smart, multiple effort defender.

This was Barnes first full season as the main guy on offense, and he largely disappointed. The 3pt percentage dropped under 30%, and this was his least efficient season with a 52.3% TS. The Raptors' offense was better with him on the bench this season. Yes, the Raptors were tanking and the team dealt with injuries, but this wasn't a good offensive season.

Barnes is still a good player, but he isn't a malleable player on offense and needs to be utilized under certain conditions/schemes to get the most out of him. How good Barnes is on offense is certainly up for debate. EPM, RAPM, DARKO, RAPTOR, and LEBRON, all have Barnes as a neutral impact on offense. Barnes' passing and midrange scoring are enough to offset his well below league average efficiency. If Barnes is just a neutral on offense then what will CMB be? CMB isn't the passer Barnes was predraft, and may not develop to be as good from the midrange.

[sco]

Sorber does not get bullied in the interior. He's a beast at 6'10", 262 with 7'6" wingspan. He does the bullying, plus he is a solid rim protector, passer, with a good shooting touch. He can become a very good C for the next decade.

He gives me Duran vibes...good and bad.

Duren looked way stronger, more athletic and finished through contact. That’s what I’m not really seeing in sorber

IDK, that's exactly what I'm seeing. I love his shot blocking instincts. He's got decent feet too. I haven't been touting him, but I like his game more than I like Maluach's.

[ThisGuyFawkes]

Sometimes, I watch this guy's scouting breakdowns as they're one of the first ones that come up when I search on youtube. He did one player at a time and then added them into his big board. The results were pretty crazy compared to almost every mock draft.

48. Alex Toohey
47. Hunter Sallis
46. Kam Jones
45. Ryan Nembhard
44. Javon Small
43. Ryan Kalkbrenner
42. Mark Sears
41. Yanic Neiderhauser
40. Hansen Yang
39. Tyrese Proctor
38. Rocco Zikarsky
37. Joan Beringer
36. Drake Powell
35. Adou Thiero
34. Dink Pate (best name?)
33. Jase Richardson
32. Grant Nelson
31. Koby Brea
30. John Tonje
29. CMB (???)
28. Noa Essengue (???)
27. Maxime Raynaud
26. Egor Demin
25. Thomas Sorber
24. Johni Broome
23. Ben Saraf
22. Liam McNeeley
21. Hugo Gonzalez
20. Cedric Coward
19. Noah Penda
18. Will Riley
17. Derik Queen
16. Jeremiah Fears (???)
15. Walter Clayton Jr.
14. Niq Clifford
13. Rasheer Fleming
12. Danny Wolf (??????????)
11. Nolan Traore
10. Kon Knueppel
9. Carter Bryant
8. Asa Newell
7. Tre Johnson
6. KJ
5. Malauch
4. Edgecombe
3. Harper
2. Bailey
1. Flagg

Just an interesting take. And he heavily prefers international basketball compared to NCAA.

Watch on YouTube

[MGB8]

Both are nice to have, but these two skill sets do not stop a player from being a liability on offense.

He's not an offensive liability; he's just not a good three point shooter right now. It'd be like saying Scottie Barnes is an offensive liability. There are more ways to a good NBA offense than making threes, and CMB does those things on top of being a smart, multiple effort defender.

This was Barnes first full season as the main guy on offense, and he largely disappointed. The 3pt percentage dropped under 30%, and this was his least efficient season with a 52.3% TS. The Raptors' offense was better with him on the bench this season. Yes, the Raptors were tanking and the team dealt with injuries, but this wasn't a good offensive season.

Barnes is still a good player, but he isn't a malleable player on offense and needs to be utilized under certain conditions/schemes to get the most out of him. How good Barnes is on offense is certainly up for debate. EPM, RAPM, DARKO, RAPTOR, and LEBRON, all have Barnes as a neutral impact on offense. Barnes' passing and midrange scoring are enough to offset his well below league average efficiency. If Barnes is just a neutral on offense then what will CMB be? CMB isn't the passer Barnes was predraft, and may not develop to be as good from the midrange.

He is also not the athlete that Barnes is, or ball handler. And Barnes has an inch greater reach, 2 inch greater wingspan, and is a half inch taller. Not huge differences but not nothing.

[CobysHairpick]

He's not an offensive liability; he's just not a good three point shooter right now. It'd be like saying Scottie Barnes is an offensive liability. There are more ways to a good NBA offense than making threes, and CMB does those things on top of being a smart, multiple effort defender.

This was Barnes first full season as the main guy on offense, and he largely disappointed. The 3pt percentage dropped under 30%, and this was his least efficient season with a 52.3% TS. The Raptors' offense was better with him on the bench this season. Yes, the Raptors were tanking and the team dealt with injuries, but this wasn't a good offensive season.

Barnes is still a good player, but he isn't a malleable player on offense and needs to be utilized under certain conditions/schemes to get the most out of him. How good Barnes is on offense is certainly up for debate. EPM, RAPM, DARKO, RAPTOR, and LEBRON, all have Barnes as a neutral impact on offense. Barnes' passing and midrange scoring are enough to offset his well below league average efficiency. If Barnes is just a neutral on offense then what will CMB be? CMB isn't the passer Barnes was predraft, and may not develop to be as good from the midrange.

He is also not the athlete that Barnes is, or ball handler. And Barnes has an inch greater reach, 2 inch greater wingspan, and is a half inch taller. Not huge differences but not nothing.

Yeah CMB doesn't move nearly as well as Barnes or any other true point forward. People say he's a PF/C because he moves like one.

[CobysHairpick]

Watched KOC's live stream today and felt vindicated on my opinion of Jakucionis after he shared some alarming stats which matched my eye test. Jakucionis had 11 games where he had more TOs than FGs made. ELEVEN of his 33 games or 1/3 of his games. You can blame it on the injury sure, but when I watched him pass I came away concerned. He's not an elite passer, but rather he can make elite passes if that makes sense. I saw far too many careless TOs for a lead playmaker in the NBA. I think Dragic is his most likely outcome.

On the topic of TOs, I want to circle back to CMB. I watched more of his playmaking in the 3 hr scouting video on youtube and came away far less impressed with his handles and passing. His handle isn't as tight as I thought and he is also prone to bad/careless passes. His 1:1 ast/TO ratio tracks more than I thought.

I'd pass on both players at 12 no pun intended.

[drosestruts]

So because it happened n 2009 we can expect it again?

I believe I used the word "may", and like I said, I see less drop off from 12-24 in terms of risk/return than I can remember in recent years.

Agreed all-star odds are mostly flat starting at 12.
Repost of a chart I put up from another thread:


If you can trade a #12 for multiple 1st rounders, the math makes sense.
However a #12 is going to be there in case someone top 10ish drops, a #16 or #24 won't be able to get a top 10 talent.
It's a gamble either way, you either want two shots at a diamond in the rough or you want to gamble a top 10 guy drops to you.

I do not have a better gauge than All-Star apperances but I'm not sure how meaningful that is either. Maybe Al-NBA teams?

All-star games can be a bit of a popularity contest.

Paolo Banchero for three years in a row, Magic have been better with him off the floor than on. But he's a #1 pick, and a popular player, who scores a lot despite doing so on bad effeciency, and now he's an All-Star.

[Infinity2152]

He's not an offensive liability; he's just not a good three point shooter right now. It'd be like saying Scottie Barnes is an offensive liability. There are more ways to a good NBA offense than making threes, and CMB does those things on top of being a smart, multiple effort defender.

This was Barnes first full season as the main guy on offense, and he largely disappointed. The 3pt percentage dropped under 30%, and this was his least efficient season with a 52.3% TS. The Raptors' offense was better with him on the bench this season. Yes, the Raptors were tanking and the team dealt with injuries, but this wasn't a good offensive season.

Barnes is still a good player, but he isn't a malleable player on offense and needs to be utilized under certain conditions/schemes to get the most out of him. How good Barnes is on offense is certainly up for debate. EPM, RAPM, DARKO, RAPTOR, and LEBRON, all have Barnes as a neutral impact on offense. Barnes' passing and midrange scoring are enough to offset his well below league average efficiency. If Barnes is just a neutral on offense then what will CMB be? CMB isn't the passer Barnes was predraft, and may not develop to be as good from the midrange.

He is also not the athlete that Barnes is, or ball handler. And Barnes has an inch greater reach, 2 inch greater wingspan, and is a half inch taller. Not huge differences but not nothing.

Scottie Barnes combine: 6'7", 7'3" wingspan, 9ft standing reach, 225 lbs, 36 inch vert
CMB : 6'7, 7'1 wingspan, 8'10" standing reach, 239 lbs, 34.5 inch vert

Both have long wingspans. CMB is 14 lbs heavier. He's not supposed to bring you the same things. He's likely stronger and harder to move around than Barnes, much more likely to play PF/C than SF/PF like Barnes. Barnes will rarely, maybe never, play small ball center. And I'd say a 34.5 inch vert at 239 is more impressive than a 36 vert at 225. When your standing reach is 8'10, how high do you need to jump? barnes was actually listed at SF at the combine, what pick did he go again? Would he be considered a bust at 12?

If he's Draymond with better offense, remind me how important Draymond has been to the Warriors winning? He doesn't need to be as good a scorer as Barnes to be better overall.

[2weekswithpay]

This was Barnes first full season as the main guy on offense, and he largely disappointed. The 3pt percentage dropped under 30%, and this was his least efficient season with a 52.3% TS. The Raptors' offense was better with him on the bench this season. Yes, the Raptors were tanking and the team dealt with injuries, but this wasn't a good offensive season.

Barnes is still a good player, but he isn't a malleable player on offense and needs to be utilized under certain conditions/schemes to get the most out of him. How good Barnes is on offense is certainly up for debate. EPM, RAPM, DARKO, RAPTOR, and LEBRON, all have Barnes as a neutral impact on offense. Barnes' passing and midrange scoring are enough to offset his well below league average efficiency. If Barnes is just a neutral on offense then what will CMB be? CMB isn't the passer Barnes was predraft, and may not develop to be as good from the midrange.

He is also not the athlete that Barnes is, or ball handler. And Barnes has an inch greater reach, 2 inch greater wingspan, and is a half inch taller. Not huge differences but not nothing.

Scottie Barnes combine: 6'7", 7'3" wingspan, 9ft standing reach, 225 lbs, 36 inch vert
CMB : 6'7, 7'1 wingspan, 8'10" standing reach, 239 lbs, 34.5 inch vert

Both have long wingspans. CMB is 14 lbs heavier. He's not supposed to bring you the same things. He's likely stronger and harder to move around than Barnes, much more likely to play PF/C than SF/PF like Barnes. Barnes will rarely, maybe never, play small ball center. And I'd say a 34.5 inch vert at 239 is more impressive than a 36 vert at 225. When your standing reach is 8'10, how high do you need to jump? barnes was actually listed at SF at the combine, what pick did he go again? Would he be considered a bust at 12?

If he's Draymond with better offense, remind me how important Draymond has been to the Warriors winning? He doesn't need to be as good a scorer as Barnes to be better overall.

It would be better if he could jump high. Being an interior scoring big at 6'7 is an issue when you have to deal with NBA level rim protection.

The Draymond comparison doesn't work. Draymond is an all-time great defender and might be pound for pound the best defender in league history. He's an extreme outlier, and you can't project someone that size giving you similar value defensively. Draymond is so good defensively that you live with his shortcomings on offense. If CMB is going to be Draymond with better offense, then he has a great case for going 1st overall over Flagg.

[Muzbar]

There are 2 main guys on my do not draft/want list and that's Derik Queen and Collin Murray-Boyles. I'd be extremely disappointed if the Bulls picked either one of those guys at 12.

In a trade back, MAYBE I could stomach drafting one of those guys, maybe.

[jump]

This team needs defense and toughness. That seems to be CMB’s reputation. It’s also been said that just has an excellent feel for the game. I haven’t watch much of him, but if that’s true, I don’t see how he wouldn’t fit on this team. Play him at PF with Matas at SF and Smith at C, who could play away from the basket with his 3pt skills. “Feel for the game” is a very valuable intangible that can really make the whole team better.