It feels like 4 on 5 when BOGANS is in the Game

[musiqsoulchild]

Quick question:

How many teams play 5 on 5?

As in how many teams have near perfection in their starting lineups.

I am just curious when this has become the GOLD standard for starting 5 man units.

[SexualChocolate]

Quick question:

How many teams play 5 on 5?

As in how many teams have near perfection in their starting lineups.

I am just curious when this has become the GOLD standard for starting 5 man units.

Question 4 U:

How far do you think a wanna be contender can go with only ONE real, legit Ball Handler that can dynamically score?

No one is asking for every, single, person in the starting lineup to be a Superstar. But at a CRUCIAL position like SG, we have ZERO with any real ball handling skills to that can both score AND defend...Decently.

[Stop It]

Why are we still talking about Bogans? He's been doing better than how he started the season and yeah he shouldn't be the starter but its not like he hasn't all year so far.I'm worried about Boozer going back to getting 20-10 and Noah playing like he did before he sat down with his injury.These Bogans posts are getting beyond annoying.

[musiqsoulchild]

Basketball is a 5 man sport. I think of the 5 men as dials, each with a Max setting and a Min setting.

In a world of limited resources ( NBA with a salary cap), it is not smart to maximize all the 5 positions. Especially since you are also relying on the bench units to perform at a league best level.

Many teams in the league have 1,2 or 3 players in the starting 5 who have no business being on a starting unit - some on the offense end of things and some on the defense end of things.

Bogans meets the barest threshold of being an NBA player on both ends of the floor. Brewer, CJ and Korver are his clear superiors in one or sometimes both of these categories.

But to maximize the entire team output throughout the game we play with one of the 5 dials at a Min setting.

[musiqsoulchild]

Quick question:

How many teams play 5 on 5?

As in how many teams have near perfection in their starting lineups.

I am just curious when this has become the GOLD standard for starting 5 man units.

Question 4 U:

How far do you think a wanna be contender can go with only ONE real, legit Ball Handler that can dynamically score?

No one is asking for every, single, person in the starting lineup to be a Superstar. But at a CRUCIAL position like SG, we have ZERO with any real ball handling skills to that can both score AND defend...Decently.

Answered my question with a question, I see.

Alrite, here goes:

There is no team in the league that is happy with their starting lineup AND their bench. So what you are expecting is really an ideal scenario. Not Miami, not San Antonio ( with 3 starters out now, see how they struggle....contrast that with how we did without our starters....our superb bench strength allows that), not Boston....literally nobody. Lakers even start a fricking corpse and a psycho just so they can preserve the impressive bench play of Steve Blake and Shannon Brown.

This ideal 5 man killer unit does not exist in today's league. The Celtics of a couple of years ago and the Pistons of the Wallace brothers came closest to a great starting unit. Our FO will add a final piece the 2 guard this coming offseason. Until then it is what it is.

As to your question:
Bogans is not Zero...nor is he negative as some un-funny jokes portray him to be. He is a very basic NBA player who does not make mistakes, follows the plan and gives good effort on D. More than everything that Bogans does, its what he allows Thibs to do with the bench that makes Bogans role important and necessary.

Bogans is not the issue here....lack of an SG is.

We will fix that issue this coming offseason. A team can only fill so many roster holes in one offseason....I would say last offseason was phenomenal. This offseason we fill the last few holes on the team and lay back and watch the fun.

[Rerisen]

He's been doing better than how he started the season.

This is the scary part to me. Bogans had actually been producing way over his head in the last couple weeks vs his career numbers. The team was winning and obviously no one was complaining.

But the most likely conclusion is that this was simply a hot streak and regression to the mean was looming down on us at any point. I think that point may be arriving. And if we even get 'career average' Bogans back for the playoffs, let alone stinking like early in the year, its not going to justify him starting or even 18 minutes a game.

So yeah, we can live with Bogans hitting over 40% of his threes and actually upping his volume on top of that percentage as he did for a while. But is that likely to continue, especially against some of the top defenses in the league in the playoffs? I'd bet against it if a gun was to my head.

[SexualChocolate]

Answered my question with a question, I see.

Alrite, here goes:

There is no team in the league that is happy with their starting lineup AND their bench. So what you are expecting is really an ideal scenario. Not Miami, not San Antonio ( with 3 starters out now, see how they struggle....contrast that with how we did without our starters....our superb bench strength allows that), not Boston....literally nobody. Lakers even start a fricking corpse and a psycho just so they can preserve the impressive bench play of Steve Blake and Shannon Brown.

Which we can all hope for this coming offseason. Until then it is what it is.

As to your question:
Bogans is not Zero...nor is he negative as some un-funny jokes portray him to be. He is a very basic NBA player who does not make mistakes, follows the plan and gives good effort on D. More than everything that Bogans does, its what he allows Thibs to do with the bench that makes Bogans role important and necessary.
Bogans is not the issue here....lack of an SG is.

We will fix that issue this coming offseason. A team can only fill so many roster holes in one offseason....I would say last offseason was phenomenal. This offseason we fill the last few holes on the team and lay back and watch the fun.

Bogans has made mistakes. But that's not the real issue I have a problem with since no one is perfect.

However, His lack of Skill on offense and his overrated (AVERAGE) defense along with his age (vet) is whats getting him by as a starter when in fact, he should really only be played for Foul relief in defending the big Scoring SG's and small SF's. Other than that he's a GARBABGE Time Player.

Its not neccessarily Bogans himself I'm having the problem with because he is what he is. I know this.

But I think he should most Definitely be replaced by Korver or Brewer because like someone just pointed out, they are at least good in ONE aspect of the game of offense and defense.

Bogans is just an Average defender that occasionaly hits a shot. Thibs knows this, otherwise you'd actually See Bogans in the 4th Quarter.

[kyrv]

As in how many teams have near perfection in their starting lineups.

None.

How many Bulls fans are asking for near perfection? Unless you are implying that Bogans is either as good an SG as one can get in the NBA, or he's anywhere in the ballpark of perfection, heck he's not even good, seems like a strawman?



How many contenders with one all-star start someone as imperfect (bad) as Bogans?

[Wingy]

Unless we have a disastrous off season, we've only got 37 games MAX with Bogans as our starting 2.

I'm kinda over complaining about him. He's the starter for this season, it is what it is and the time for change already went by. We're stuck.

[jcuuofd]

As in how many teams have near perfection in their starting lineups.

None.

How many Bulls fans are asking for near perfection? Unless you are implying that Bogans is either as good an SG as one can get in the NBA, or he's anywhere in the ballpark of perfection, heck he's not even good, seems like a strawman?



How many contenders with one all-star start someone as imperfect (bad) as Bogans?

Boston does - Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Shaq
LA does - Fisher, Kobe, Artest, Gasol, Bynum
Orlando does on paper, but they are still having chemistry problems - Nelson, Richardson, Turkoglu, Bass, Howard

All of these teams also have good bench players.

The Bulls would destroy opponents if they had a starter like Jason Richardson.

[musiqsoulchild]

As in how many teams have near perfection in their starting lineups.

None.
How many Bulls fans are asking for near perfection? Unless you are implying that Bogans is either as good an SG as one can get in the NBA, or he's anywhere in the ballpark of perfection, heck he's not even good, seems like a strawman?
How many contenders with one all-star start someone as imperfect (bad) as Bogans?

No strawman here.

Iam not asking for near perfection at the 2guard. Iam using that term for starting lineups.

You are seeking a marginal improvement in the starting lineup with Brewer or Korver instead of Bogans. But the overall impact to the team with that change is not marginal.

Imagine Brewer and Noah on the same lineup. How does that help our spacing? Sure, there maybe...huge maybe....some scenarios where this may work, but its not ideal...nor near-perfect.

Imagine Korver guarding opposing 2guards to staet the game. Not a bad idea, because he tries hard. Now imagine the bench without Korver.

Your Bulls bench if Korver starts: CJ, Bogans, Brewer, Taj, Asik. Yuck!

[SexualChocolate]

No strawman here.

Iam not asking for near perfection at the 2guard. Iam using that term for starting lineups.

You are seeking a marginal improvement in the starting lineup with Brewer or Korver instead of Bogans. But the overall impact to the team with that change is not marginal.

Imagine Brewer and Noah on the same lineup. How does that help our spacing? Sure, there maybe...huge maybe....some scenarios where this may work, but its not ideal...nor near-perfect.

Imagine Korver guarding opposing 2guards to staet the game. Not a bad idea, because he tries hard. Now imagine the bench without Korver.

Your Bulls bench if Korver starts: CJ, Bogans, Brewer, Taj, Asik. Yuck!

Actually, It WOULD make a significant difference if Korver started because he is a more consistant threat from all over the floor and would certainly provide more relief for Rose to dish to when he's double covered. It would especially effect the BEGINNGING of games which is how teams have beat us, they get a big lead Early, and if they can, hold on to it.

We need solid, consistant scoring off the bat.

You argured about not having the perfect Starting Lineup, well.... that exact same arguement can be made for the Bench. I mean, Korver isn't the only player on that bench that's played well. Thats why we credit the BENCH and not one guy when we talk about *The Bench*.


Bogans can bring his 1 to 3 made shots for us off the bench. Let Watson and Gibson be the Prime Scorers that we rely on, with Asik, Brewer, and Bogans for that Good ole Defense.

I don't see anything wrong with that...

[boogydown]

The Bulls have the 2nd best point differential in the league. When Bogans is on the floor they have a point differential that would come out to 10th in the league.

What's your point? (oh, point...a pun )

At this point I don't know why people continue to be surprised when the starters "come out slow". They aren't coming out slow, they are just playing to the level they have all year with Bogans.

They are still a winning team with him on the floor, but just not nearly so dominant a team as they are overall and even more so when he's on the bench.

Then again, lets not forget that for like 20 games he was shooting like 23% from 3 on wide open shots. The "new" and "improved" Bogans shoots 35% from 3 on wide open shots.

[kodo]

Now imagine the bench without Korver.

Your Bulls bench if Korver starts: CJ, Bogans, Brewer, Taj, Asik. Yuck!

I think you nailed it on the head. In all 20 of the 5 man lineups tracked by 82games, never do Bogans & Brewer play together. In fact, Bogans only plays with Rose & Deng.

Also to some extent, i think Thibs recognizes Korver isn't a great defender and our 2nd unit has better defense than our 1st unit, to make up for this.

I was pretty exasperated at the Bogans thing at the beginning of the season but i think our COY has the lineups as well as they can be, quite honestly.

[fleet]

well (as Reagan would say), I have bought into the idea of Bogans getting the starts because of the idea that Brewer and Korver off the bench was working, and the slow start issue wasn't as ominent. But honestly, Korver can't start because Brewer and Bogans in the game off the bench together doesn't strike me as effective. Their must be a shooting forward off the bench, and that is Korver. So, If it makes people happy to start Brewer over Bogans then whathaveyou. But that idea that Bogans theoretically shooting the 3 helps with spacing.......Losing that to start Brewer, I'm not sure that isn't robbing Peter to pay Paul. It could be a wash.

Meh, Bogans doesn't play much, remember that. Its the minutes that count, and Brewer isn't so much a superior player that losing the spacing Bogans might be providing doesn't appear to make starting Brewer to be a significant upgrade. The Bulls are short a shooting shooting guard. You can't fix it. There's no way out unless you started CJ Watson over Bogans. Then you might have something of a significant move. Do we have another PG to come off the bench? Darn it.

No real way out of this fellas. OJ Mayo is not walking through that door.

[Red Larrivee]

Boston does - Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Shaq
LA does - Fisher, Kobe, Artest, Gasol, Bynum
Orlando does on paper, but they are still having chemistry problems - Nelson, Richardson, Turkoglu, Bass, Howard

All of these teams also have good bench players.

The Bulls would destroy opponents if they had a starter like Jason Richardson.

Fisher is the only one of those who's actually comparable. Very comparable in fact. The only thing that makes him somewhat redeeming, is that he's known for hitting big threes in the postseason. This season:

Fisher: 8.9 PER, 48.1%TS, 38.4%fg, 39.6%three, 73 games played
Bogans: 8.7 PER, 54.7%TS, 39.7%fg, 37.2%three, 73 games played

Keep in mind Fisher's numbers last season when the Lakers won it all were basically the same as this years. The Lakers often play 4 on 5 with him in the lineup and he gets killed by fast, athletic PG's. It's definitely possible to win it all despite Bogans. It's just about how well you go about hiding him. The Lakers and Bulls both do a pretty good job at that, when it comes to their respective weak links.

[fleet]

Boston does - Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Shaq
LA does - Fisher, Kobe, Artest, Gasol, Bynum
Orlando does on paper, but they are still having chemistry problems - Nelson, Richardson, Turkoglu, Bass, Howard

All of these teams also have good bench players.

The Bulls would destroy opponents if they had a starter like Jason Richardson.

Fisher is the only one of those who's actually comparable. Very comparable in fact. The only thing that makes him somewhat redeeming, is that he's known for hitting big threes in the postseason. This season:

Fisher: 8.9 PER, 48.1%TS, 38.4%fg, 39.6%three, 73 games played
Bogans: 8.7 PER, 54.7%TS, 39.7%fg, 37.2%three, 73 games played

Keep in mind Fisher's numbers last season when the Lakers won it all were basically the same as this years. The Lakers often play 4 on 5 with him in the lineup and he gets killed by fast, athletic PG's. It's definitely possible to win it all despite Bogans. It's just about how well you go about hiding him. The Lakers and Bulls both do a pretty good job at that, when it comes to their respective weak links.

I agree. I don't worry about this because I try not to worry about things that can't be helped. Bogans is pretty fearless. Every dog has the sun shine on his ass every blue playoff moon. Bogans will hit a few big shots because he won't be scared. At least, thats what I tell myself when I'm drinking a nice gin and tonic.

[musiqsoulchild]

Boston does - Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Shaq
LA does - Fisher, Kobe, Artest, Gasol, Bynum
Orlando does on paper, but they are still having chemistry problems - Nelson, Richardson, Turkoglu, Bass, Howard

All of these teams also have good bench players.

The Bulls would destroy opponents if they had a starter like Jason Richardson.

Fisher is the only one of those who's actually comparable. Very comparable in fact. The only thing that makes him somewhat redeeming, is that he's known for hitting big threes in the postseason. This season:

Fisher: 8.9 PER, 48.1%TS, 38.4%fg, 39.6%three, 73 games played
Bogans: 8.7 PER, 54.7%TS, 39.7%fg, 37.2%three, 73 games played

Keep in mind Fisher's numbers last season when the Lakers won it all were basically the same as this years. The Lakers often play 4 on 5 with him in the lineup and he gets killed by fast, athletic PG's. It's definitely possible to win it all despite Bogans. It's just about how well you go about hiding him. The Lakers and Bulls both do a pretty good job at that, when it comes to their respective weak links.

I agree. I don't worry about this because I try not to worry about things that can't be helped. Bogans is pretty fearless. Every dog has the sun shine on his ass every blue playoff moon. Bogans will hit a few big shots because he won't be scared. At least, thats what I tell myself when I'm drinking a nice gin and tonic.

Welcome back Fleet!

Been a while....what a great time to be a Bulls fan!

[Bullsmaniac]

I agree. I don't worry about this because I try not to worry about things that can't be helped. Bogans is pretty fearless. Every dog has the sun shine on his ass every blue playoff moon. Bogans will hit a few big shots because he won't be scared. At least, thats what I tell myself when I'm drinking a nice gin and tonic.

Is this fleet as in fleetwoodmacbulls?

[Shogun12]

It will be very interesting to see if Bogans minutes remotely contract once the Playoffs start. There is no margin of error when you're facing elite talent like Wade and Allen in a high stakes playoff series, especially when they will likely see their minutes increase then. Thibodeau has been very rigid in his rotations to this point, so we'll see how things work out for us in late April.

The other thing that I'm curious about is whether the front office even makes an upgrade at the shooting guard position in the off-season. I could easily imagine them exercising their option on Bogans, or even extending him for another year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see several people on this board defending the move as prudent in the current financial climate.