Complete Rose/Williams to Boozer Pick and Roll Tutorial

[alucryts]

Question. Does Rose run the Bulls version of the pick N roll differently than Utah's version because he's being told to run it that way or because he's choosing to run it that way?

Well, Thib's is a great coach, but he's no Jerry Sloan when it comes to offense. I have no idea, though if I had to guess I would say they just haven't focused on it that much. Rose has a knack for fixing his mistakes once they are identified.

Honestly, I hope it's just something they missed, because the way alucryts broke it down, it's borderline insane to purposely run it our way. I mean we do want to get shots for Rose, and the 3pt line P&R does help with that. But we also need to put Boozer in positions for him to excel. And our version of the high P&R, as well as force feeding him down on the block, just isn't working.

Spot on

Which is why a 2nd creator ( either for himself or for others ) keeps defenses more honest , won't wear Derrick down as much , and should make it easier to get to more efficient spots on the floor for the pick and roll game - as has been correctly identified , roughly approximate to being parallel with the ft line

A Rip and Noah pick and roll #4 is what you are looking for imo, and we actually have run it. I'll see if I can get video of it for this thread (we ran it in preseason and preseason doesn't exist anymore on Synergy).

[Ajosu]

He said he does not have Nash understanding not that he is Tyrus Thomas.

I think it's safe to say that his IQ isn't as high as most elite PGs. That's not to say he is not an elite PG though. He is. That's the position he plays, and he can simply take over games with his scoring ability.

Not trying to knock him, but I think this thread has pointed out ways that our P&R can be run better for the personel we have. Ways that he hasn't realized, himself.

Another problem is him and Boozer have never got to work together. The lockout, boozer bag has cost two training camps. I wish him and Boozer had worked together over the summer.

I don't buy this. I think real game time experience is just as, if not more useful than training camp. Though because of injuries, they didn't have a full season of that, either.

[alucryts]

Spending some time looking at what happens on pick and rolls when the ball handler scores, pick and rolls are quite simple. If there is no double team brought to the ball handler, the ball handler must attack to score. Literally watching any pick and roll (except when the double is split on occasion), if the defense doubles, the roll man is open; if the defense does not double, the ball handler is open to attack. This applies to all 5 pick and rolls.

[alucryts]

Here is your second option/creator on offense this year folks:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kaN6AIHvU[/youtube]

Doesn't this look similar to PNR scenario #4/#5? (albeit ugly here )

[Ajosu]

Keep in mind that Scenarios 3 through 5 require a TON of chemistry and skill at running from the ball handler. Running the third scenario is something I think we can do, but it doesn't give our offense prime rebounding position like the first one does. Personally, I think we should mix in more of scenarios 3-5 instead of posting up our players who are bad at posting up. For those wondering, we actually have run pick and roll 4 this year, but not with Rose and Boozer; we've run it with Rip and Noah on the wing off of Rip running around screens.

We already have good rebounders. I don't think we need to systematically run plays to help get more rebounds. But hey, Thibs knows what he is doing. He's the reigning COY and widely accepted as one of the greatest Xs and Os guys in basketball. Maybe rebounding is just that key to winning, that we need to be that dominant at it.

But I'd be curious how much those offensive boards are helping our offense, specifically the ones that result from the high pick and roll. Not sure if there's a way to find that out, but to me, at some point you get dimishing returns in that category, when you already have excellent rebounders on your team.

[jl342323]

Here is your second option/creator on offense this year folks:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kaN6AIHvU[/youtube]

Doesn't this look similar to PNR scenario #4/#5? (albeit ugly here )

this example is why i said he sometimes runs too wide after the pick. he really didnt have to here

[Indomitable]

He said he does not have Nash understanding not that he is Tyrus Thomas.

I think it's safe to say that his IQ isn't as high as most elite PGs. That's not to say he is not an elite PG though. He is. That's the position he plays, and he can simply take over games with his scoring ability.

Not trying to knock him, but I think this thread has pointed out ways that our P&R can be run better for the personel we have. Ways that he hasn't realized, himself.

Another problem is him and Boozer have never got to work together. The lockout, boozer bag has cost two training camps. I wish him and Boozer had worked together over the summer.

I don't buy this. I think real game time experience is just as, if not more useful than training camp. Though because of injuries, they didn't have a full season of that, either.

I believe you play as you practice and a lot of the Bulls problems come from not being familiar with each other. That is one of the reasons that Stockton and Malone became better at it over time.

[alucryts]

Keep in mind that Scenarios 3 through 5 require a TON of chemistry and skill at running from the ball handler. Running the third scenario is something I think we can do, but it doesn't give our offense prime rebounding position like the first one does. Personally, I think we should mix in more of scenarios 3-5 instead of posting up our players who are bad at posting up. For those wondering, we actually have run pick and roll 4 this year, but not with Rose and Boozer; we've run it with Rip and Noah on the wing off of Rip running around screens.

We already have good rebounders. I don't think we need to systematically run plays to help get more rebounds. But hey, Thibs knows what he is doing. He's the reigning COY and widely accepted as one of the greatest Xs and Os guys in basketball. Maybe rebounding is just that key to winning, that we need to be that dominant at it.

But I'd be curious how much those offensive boards are helping our offense, specifically the ones that result from the high pick and roll. Not sure if there's a way to find that out, but to me, at some point you get dimishing returns in that category, when you already have excellent rebounders on your team.

Those are good points all around. The only help I can provide to your question is the offensive rebounding scoring efficiency of Noah and Boozer:

10-11
Noah: 0.99 ppp
Boozer: 1.15 ppp

Bulls Overall Offensive Rebounding: 1.11 ppp (667 attempts)
Bulls Overall Efficiency on Offense: 0.93 ppp

If you can run plays for offensive rebounds, it is an extraordinary way to get efficient scoring. Remember, these efficiencies include multiple tips; in reality, the efficiency is much higher. Then again, it is a gamble that you even get it in the first place. Like you alluded to, Thibs probably knows much better than we do here. I would like to see us run more advanced pick and roll sets myself (let's be honest it's more fun than rebounding). For comparison, the 10-11 Heat had a 1.06 ppp on offensive rebounds (510 times). Their offense was second in the league at 0.98 ppp overall. So, offensive rebounding creates efficiency at a an elite rate. I would be interested in the league rankings for offensive points per trip down the floor. This would include offensive rebounding numbers and show how effective our rebounding is instead of penalizing us for using multiples possessions in one trip.

[alucryts]

Here is your second option/creator on offense this year folks:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kaN6AIHvU[/youtube]

Doesn't this look similar to PNR scenario #4/#5? (albeit ugly here )

this example is why i said he sometimes runs too wide after the pick. he really didnt have to here

I would agree with you if I thought the Rose and Boozer pick and roll was what they were going for. In that play, the Rose and Boozer pick and roll was a diversion for the Rip and Noah pick and roll. I think that because Rose doesn't even look for Boozer on the back side of the play. Instead, he swings it around for Rip.

[jl342323]

I would agree with you if I thought the Rose and Boozer pick and roll was what they were going for. In that play, the Rose and Boozer pick and roll was a diversion for the Rip and Noah pick and roll. I think that because Rose doesn't even look for Boozer on the back side of the play. Instead, he swings it around for Rip.

he does that very often. i might be wrong, but thats how i felt after watching first 4 games this season thus far.

i also think it is ok to keep every option open. drose has tendency to predetermine what he is going to do even before the play develops. drose becomes way too predictable sometimes

[Ajosu]

I believe you play as you practice and a lot of the Bulls problems come from not being familiar with each other. That is one of the reasons that Stockton and Malone became better at it over time.

I'm a believer in that as well. Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Still, I think there is no substitute for live, in game experience.

But yeah, the timing and positioning on the pick and roll is something they can work on in practice. It's just that I think they have had enough games together, injuries and lockout aside, that those things don't explain their pick and roll situation.

[Ajosu]

...snip...

So, offensive rebounding creates efficiency at a an elite rate.

That's good stuff. Like you said, it doesn't look at only Orebs from pick and roll plays. But it does point out the clear, yet unspectacular efficiency of offensive rebounds. Either way, I'd like to see some more "ball to pick" pick and rolls at the free throw line.

[alucryts]

I would agree with you if I thought the Rose and Boozer pick and roll was what they were going for. In that play, the Rose and Boozer pick and roll was a diversion for the Rip and Noah pick and roll. I think that because Rose doesn't even look for Boozer on the back side of the play. Instead, he swings it around for Rip.

he does that very often. i might be wrong, but thats how i felt after watching first 4 games this season thus far.

i also think it is ok to keep every option open. drose has tendency to predetermine what he is going to do even before the play develops. drose becomes way too predictable sometimes

You could be completely right with this and I wrong. I was more playing a devil's advocate kind of thing there (although I believe the advocate to be the case, I could be wrong). It is definitely something to keep an eye on going forward.

[alucryts]

...snip...

So, offensive rebounding creates efficiency at a an elite rate.

That's good stuff. Like you said, it doesn't look at only Orebs from pick and roll plays. But it does point out the clear, yet unspectacular efficiency of offensive rebounds. Either way, I'd like to see some more "ball to pick" pick and rolls at the free throw line.

Me too; the more advanced pick and rolls are visually impressive as well. I think offensive rebounding has a lot of benefits in efficiency that cannot really be recorded unless you watch every second of every game out there. Not only from tip ins, but from passes out to wide open shooters and such. I would like to see the efficiency of plays following an offensive rebound including everything from tip ins to resetting the offense. I bet this efficiency would be crazy good considering the WIDE open looks you see shooters get off of these rebounds.

[anorexorcism]

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant work alucryts. This jibes well with what Doug and Nick Fridell were talking about on their podcast.

Unfortunately, this strategy being implemented would imply Thibodeau is a solid offensive mind and would realize this is a great solution--go back to what worked for Boozer in Utah. Hell, Everything i've seen to date goes against that. For all of his defensive genius, Thibodeau is a very poor offensive coach.

It's unfortunate that we can't run the P&R more and that Rose hasn't been able to add it to his arsenal. Calipari never ran it, VDN didn't run any offense, and Thibs has barely used it. If nothing else, this would prevent Boozer from ending up as "an amnesty candidate in 2 years" as Doug put it and maybe be the shot in the arm he really needs badly right now.

[alucryts]

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant work alucryts. This jibes well with what Doug and Nick Fridell were talking about on their podcast.

Unfortunately, this strategy being implemented would imply Thibodeau is a solid offensive mind and would realize this is a great solution--go back to what worked for Boozer in Utah. Hell, Everything i've seen to date goes against that. For all of his defensive genius, Thibodeau is a very poor offensive coach.

It's unfortunate that we can't run the P&R more and that Rose hasn't been able to add it to his arsenal. Calipari never ran it, VDN didn't run any offense, and Thibs has barely used it. If nothing else, this would prevent Boozer from ending up as "an amnesty candidate in 2 years" as Doug put it and maybe be the shot in the arm he really needs badly right now.

Thanks for the kind words. One thing we have to take into consideration is the offensive rebounding the case 1 pick and roll creates. Offensive rebounding is an elite way to create offense and has tertiary benefits as well (the past few posts I went into more depth there). While I don't like our offense, we have to consider the possibility that this offense is designed for offensive rebounds. If it is, Thibs comes off as a great offensive mind out there. If it is not, well, maybe he is simply a defensive guru.

Regardless of offensive rebounding being intentional or not, I would love to see us run some Utah PNR variety. My god is that stuff deadly and fun to watch. The Utah Jazz of 09-10 had a PPP of 0.97 overall. That solidly beats us and would be an elite offense in today's league.

[Rerisen]

IIRC the Bulls ran the medium or elbow PnR a lot more early last year. I'm not sure why we went away from it to move it further out, if they weren't happy with Rose's decisions, Boozers results or what. But when I asked for more PnR, this if of the type I had in mind. Not starting at the 3pt line.

Also, I think slipping should be discussed. Like Karl Malone properly pointed out in the vid from the last thread, the pick setter actually has to set the pick for it to work most of the time. I don't think Boozer is being instructed to slip so many picks, but does so out of reading the defense, and I think reading it wrongly. By slipping it early he is looking for his own offense IMO, whereas if he just set it correctly, the play would perform the function it is supposed to and *either* guy could get a shot depending on what the defense does, and if Rose reads it right.

Most of the Deron clips he sets it all the way, I don't know if it's because that is the ones where success happened mostly and thus in the highlights, or he just trusted Deron more to make the right decision, where he is slipping early more on Rose, to try and help him initiate the pass, but it is not having that consequence if this is the intent.

[alucryts]

IIRC the Bulls ran the medium or elbow PnR a lot more early last year. I'm not sure why we went away from it to move it further out, if they weren't happy with Rose's decisions, Boozers results or what. But when I asked for more PnR, this if of the type I had in mind. Not starting at the 3pt line.

Also, I think slipping should be discussed. Like Karl Malone properly pointed out in the vid from the last thread, the pick setter actually has to set the pick for it to work most of the time. I don't think Boozer is being instructed to slip so many picks, but does so out of reading the defense, and I think reading it wrongly. By slipping it early he is looking for his own offense IMO, whereas if he just set it correctly, the play would perform the function it is supposed to and *either* guy could get a shot depending on what the defense does, and if Rose reads it right.

All the pick has to do in scenarios 3, 4, and 5 is make the on ball defender take a step away from the basket to get away from the would be pick. If that happens, the play will have worked. I did like Kurt Thomas' solid screens though. They seemed to free up Rose more than Boozer's screens.

Most of the Deron clips he sets it all the way, I don't know if it's because that is the ones where success happened mostly and thus in the highlights, or he just trusted Deron more to make the right decision, where he is slipping early more on Rose, to try and help him initiate the pass, but it is not having that consequence if this is the intent.

Saw your edit: I think the slip is used on scenario 1/2 while your real screens are used on the others.

[alucryts]

A point on how to defend the pick and roll: if the ball handler's defender can go over the pick and deny the driving lane while at the same time preventing any would be passes, the whole play dies. It is up to the point guard to create the separation like Rerisen alluded to by running his man into the pick (or at least diverting his path enough by making him think he has to avoid the pick).

[Rerisen]

I did like Kurt Thomas' solid screens though. They seemed to free up Rose more than Boozer's screens.

Additionally, going through with the pick of course presents the 'pop' opportunity, and of course KT liked that more than trying to roll and finish.

But if Boozer can't quite finish like he used to, or just not finish over Noah's man always being around, then presenting himself with the pop option more would seem a good choice to have.

This depends also though on if Rose is running the pick toward the middle of the court, or toward the sidelines (which he seemed to do with Kurt mostly).