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In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades

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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#41 » by WinCity » Fri Jul 4, 2014 10:42 pm

fleet wrote:I've long had the theory that The Chairman would rather eat rotton eggs than go after Lebron after the charade in 2010 where Lebron conned the Bulls. Some people just don't forget getting swindled. I admire him for keeping his pride intact. Don't give it up. Not for anybody.



Agreed. The idea that he is meeting with PHX is a joke. He isn't going there. We all know that. Why should we be upset about that?

I do agree regarding the Bulls in ability to trade, but this James idea had no business here. Hell we had max space in 2010 and it didnt matter.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#42 » by WinCity » Fri Jul 4, 2014 10:49 pm

The thing is, I think what Homo is getting it is that we aren't getting anywhere in FA. Flexibility or not, max cap space or not we just aren't getting it done there. As others noted prying a player away from his current team is hard, the money they leave behind is tremendous.

The extent to which we focused on recruiting has been absurd. It has not mattered nearly that much. If you are going to play the FA stack the deck as the MIA 3 did by colluding years in advance, otherwise dont bother. The odds of success are far too low. But this goes far, far beyond recruiting as we have come to know it.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#43 » by Zartan » Fri Jul 4, 2014 10:51 pm

mrlancers wrote:
Zartan wrote:How would essentially trading Boozer, MDJ, Taj and Butler for LeBron be "gutting" our roster?


That's most of our production last year outside of Noah. That's pretty much the definition of gutting our roster.

And there'd be no "chance" at signing LeBron. If he wants to come you make the trades, if he doesn't you don't.


Obviously.


That's all replaceable production, though.

Rose/Hinrich
Snell
LeBron/McDermott
Mirotic/Aussie
Noah/Smith

looks a lot better than....

Rose/Hinrich
Butler/Snell
MDJ/McD
Boozer/Taj
Noah/Smith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#44 » by dice » Fri Jul 4, 2014 10:58 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
dice wrote:it's usually a BAD thing to trade for established talent unless the talent acquired puts a team over the top immediately. 'cause it usually means dispensing young, cheap contracts in the process (both established talent and draft picks)


This is quite the generalization.

which happens to be true. teams often look for quick fixes with big names and it ends up backfiring in the long run

and by the way, nothing has changed in this regard in "today's NBA" vs. "yesterday's NBA"


Umm, yes something quite important changed. The disparity in which a team can offer its own free-agents has increased.

that doesn't make trading any more or less important. it actually makes drafting a superstar that much MORE important
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#45 » by NecessaryEvil » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:02 pm

I don't have anything to add but I agree with you 1000%
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#46 » by kulaz3000 » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:10 pm

So you want us to gut our team so we can have a meeting to propose a max deal to LeBron and then have him stay in Miami with us being left with a incomplete team once again? Yeah, no thinks. LeBron and his entire team are a bunch of snakes, and there is a clear reason why the Bulls have shown absolutely no interest, greatest player in the league or not.

And in speaking of trades, you only need to take some time to look at the Bulls history the last decade and you'll actually notice that the Bulls have been one of the most consistently active trading teams in the entire league.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#47 » by HomoSapien » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:15 pm

kulaz3000 wrote:So you want us to gut our team so we can have a meeting to propose a max deal to LeBron and then have him stay in Miami with us being left with a incomplete team once again? Yeah, no thinks. LeBron and his entire team are a bunch of snakes, and there is a clear reason why the Bulls have shown absolutely no interest, greatest player in the league or not.


Absolutely said nothing remotely close to this, but thanks.

And in speaking of trades, you only need to take some time to look at the Bulls history the last decade and you'll actually notice that the Bulls have been one of the most consistently active trading teams in the entire league.


Yup. They make a specific type of trade only.

I'm suggesting we need to be able to make trades for guys who can help us now.

Free-Agency isn't a sure bet. We got burned by McGrady, it set us back. We got Wallace, which was the wrong bet and it set us back. We missed on Lebron, and were set back by Boozer's contract. We're seemingly about to strike out on Melo now too. It's just time for a new approach.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#48 » by WinCity » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:20 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
kulaz3000 wrote:So you want us to gut our team so we can have a meeting to propose a max deal to LeBron and then have him stay in Miami with us being left with a incomplete team once again? Yeah, no thinks. LeBron and his entire team are a bunch of snakes, and there is a clear reason why the Bulls have shown absolutely no interest, greatest player in the league or not.


Absolutely said nothing remotely close to this, but thanks.

And in speaking of trades, you only need to take some time to look at the Bulls history the last decade and you'll actually notice that the Bulls have been one of the most consistently active trading teams in the entire league.


Yup. They make a specific type of trade only.

I'm suggesting we need to be able to make trades for guys who can help us now.

Free-Agency isn't a sure bet. We got burned by McGrady, it set us back. We got Wallace, which was the wrong bet and it set us back. We missed on Lebron, and were set back by Boozer's contract. We're seemingly about to strike out on Melo now too. It's just time for a new approach.


Agree


At this point the only question is do we build like San An and OKC i.e. focused on internal building via the draft or build like HOU and MIA who acquired McGrady/Harden and Mourning/Hardaway/Shaq respectively via trade.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#49 » by kingkirk » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:21 pm

Whilst i agree, we're not great at trades, i don't understand how the Carmelo situation is the catalyst for this topic?

We could offer a max deal (or close to it), and the FO had setup all the pieces to make that happen, but the CBA is at work here, like it should be, with the incumbent having the $ advantages over all over the teams.

Not having max dollars right now this off season is an example of how we suck at trading?

I am confused.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#50 » by kulaz3000 » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:26 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
Free-Agency isn't a sure bet. We got burned by McGrady, it set us back. We got Wallace, which was the wrong bet and it set us back. We missed on Lebron, and were set back by Boozer's contract. We're seemingly about to strike out on Melo now too. It's just time for a new approach.


How were we set back by Boozer's contract. Yes, it was a bad contract no doubt, no argument from me, but he did his part though he has been declining over the years, and we have still be a successful team with him on the roster. It was Derrick's injury more so than anyone else on the roster that has set us back, not to mention the new Derrick Rose rule on his existing contract which put us in a worse position still.

I get that Boozer is easy to blame as he has been the whipping boy for the Bulls fans since day 1, but he isn't the main reason why the Bulls were set back and limited in what we could or could not do for the past 2 seasons or more, it was Derrick.

As you said free agency is a gamble, and all you can ask for is that the franchise puts in their best effort, we've done that over the years and that's all you can ask for as a fan I think. I mean, no matter how great your pitch is, at the end of the day it's out of the teams hands as to what the player chooses to do. Whether we need a new approach, I don't know, but trading for a star player seems to me to be more difficult because there are a few variables that need to be considered:

1. Does that player have enough years left on his contract to make the trade worthwhile
2. Does he even have any interest being on your team
3. If the player is young, and upcoming, usually teams are going to do everything they possibly can to keep them, even more so if they are still under contract
4. How much do you have to give up to get that player, usually it's going to be a crap load, so does that put your team in a better position right away, or you hope that it would in the future

I think the best way to get immediate success is through trades for established players, but in most cases those players aren't likely to be young, they would ever already be players already at their peak or on their way down, and you'd still have to give them a boat load to acquire them. But the next best way would be to obtain high draft picks and hope that those picks land on a year where the draft class has really good players in them, and then you are lucky enough to pick one of those players.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#51 » by HomoSapien » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:28 pm

KingCuban wrote:Whilst i agree, we're not great at trades, i don't understand how the Carmelo situation is the catalyst for this topic?

We could offer a max deal (or close to it), and the FO had setup all the pieces to make that happen, but the CBA is at work here, like it should be, with the incumbent having the $ advantages over all over the teams.

Not having max dollars right now this off season is an example of how we suck at trading?

I am confused.


My primary point was that we need to start making trades. It wasn't mean to be a rant that we suck at trading.

Melo is a catalyst to this, because it seems clear that even if you can offer a max contract you're still at a huge disadvantage since the FA's current team can offer significantly more.

If you want to add this top flight talent, you either need to draft them or trade for them. We're too good to be in a realistic position to draft that type of talent, so our best bet is to try and trade for them.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#52 » by WesleyExChiFan » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:33 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
Evil_Headband wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Well we haven't made any trades for established talent, so by default we are last. It's not very hard to argue.

And to be clear, I'm not talking about trades for super stars. Just guys who can immediately help you.


Ok, what are these smaller trades that other teams are making? We hardly ever see true basketball trades. It's almost always financial or trading the future for the present.


Well we've arguably made 0-1 "basketball trades" in John Paxson's entire time in Chiacgo, so it's pretty easy to argue.

But if you insist on recent examples:

Cavs trading for Deng.

gave them nothing

Kings trading for Gay
And then the Raptors started winning

Wizards trading for Gortat
Good deal, but they're married to him, better or worse.

Nets trading for Marcus Thornton

Rockets trading for Harden
Rockets got gifted Harden by a truly cheap front office.

Raptors trading for Lou Williams
Remains to be seen.

Nuggets trading for Igoudala
Nuggets losing Iggy in FA.

Cavs trading for Hawes
Cavs losing Hawes in FA.

Pacers trade for Evan Turner
Gave them nothing, giving him up for nothing.

Bobcats trading for Gary Neal
Meh

Warriors trading for Bogut
Good trade.

Lakers trading for Ramon Sessions
Who caved badly in the playoffs from what I hear in the thread about him.

Lakers trading for Jordan Hill
Good player.

Wizards trading for Nene.
Good trade.


The main thing GarPax did wrong is hold on to Deng too long. To their credit, they didn't overpay him either.

Paxson knows that you need stars AND continuity to win championships. I have no problem just going for depth if we miss out on Anthony.

Look at Morey if you want to see what flexibility does for you. He was ready to strike when Harden and Dwight became available.

We're ready for Melo, but we don't trust him, hence keeping Taj. I don't trust him so I say smart move.

Next up is Love and then Durant. Both friends with Rose. Stay ready until then I say. Melo needs us to win more than we need him.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#53 » by HomoSapien » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:33 pm

kulaz3000 wrote:
How were we set back by Boozer's contract. Yes, it was a bad contract no doubt, no argument from me, but he did his part though he has been declining over the years, and we have still be a successful team with him on the roster. It was Derrick's injury more so than anyone else on the roster that has set us back, not to mention the new Derrick Rose rule on his existing contract which put us in a worse position still.


You can be set back by more than one thing. Rose was the biggest setback. Boozer was also a big one.

He was fine initially, but he ate up a lot of salary and was seemingly one of the least attractive assets in the NBA. Arguably untradeable till now.

As you said free agency is a gamble, and all you can ask for is that the franchise puts in their best effort, we've done that over the years and that's all you can ask for as a fan I think.


Every team puts there best foot forward. The Bulls aren't unique in this regard. So far we have Ben Wallace and Boozer to show for this.

If you want top talent, the landscape has altered. You either have to draft it, or trade for it. It's unlikely that you'll be able to steal a top talent in free-agency.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#54 » by kingkirk » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:37 pm

HomoSapien wrote:My primary point was that we need to start making trades. It wasn't mean to be a rant that we suck at trading.

Melo is a catalyst to this, because it seems clear that even if you can offer a max contract you're still at a huge disadvantage since the FA's current team can offer significantly more.

If you want to add this top flight talent, you either need to draft them or trade for them. We're too good to be in a realistic position to draft that type of talent, so our best bet is to try and trade for them.


But we can offer a max contract, and trades would follow on from that, but you need that commitment from the FA before it has to happen.

Correct me if i am wrong, but are you suggesting that we should have traded away pieces to open up max cap space in order to entice these FAs with raw cap space?
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#55 » by kulaz3000 » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:43 pm

HomoSapien wrote:If you want top talent, the landscape has altered. You either have to draft it, or trade for it. It's unlikely that you'll be able to steal a top talent in free-agency.


I'm curious, of all the teams that have traded for a top tier player in recent years have those teams had much success? The most recent one where the team was better for it was the KG to Celtics trade, and he was already on his way down from his prime, but at least they got one championship out of him right?

Still, Rockets go their star player but they haven't had all that much success when it matters as yet. The Knicks got their star player in Melo and they too haven't had all that much success due to having to essentially gut the team for him.

I mean I get where you're coming from, but I think this idea of your for trading for a big star approach provides even less of a chance of success in my opinion. To me at least, it's draft, free agent signings and then trading for established star. Yes, just because we've fallen flat in free agency the past few seasons does mean we should attempt to stop trying, you need to keep in mind that a whole lot of new generation players are coming in to this league with different mindsets, and desires of playing for specific franchises. I don't think it's time for a desperate move, but hey, for the right player and at the right price than why not?
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#56 » by BrooklynBulls » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:43 pm

We are reactive and not proactive in regard to trading. We make trades when we have to get under the tax, dump a bad attitude, clear cap for free agency. These are all reactive trades and not trades based on seeing an undervalued veteran talent. The closest we've gotten to that is the Salmons and Miller trade in 09.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#57 » by the ultimates » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:44 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
Evil_Headband wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Well we haven't made any trades for established talent, so by default we are last. It's not very hard to argue.

And to be clear, I'm not talking about trades for super stars. Just guys who can immediately help you.


Ok, what are these smaller trades that other teams are making? We hardly ever see true basketball trades. It's almost always financial or trading the future for the present.


Well we've arguably made 0-1 "basketball trades" in John Paxson's entire time in Chiacgo, so it's pretty easy to argue.

But if you insist on recent examples:



Cavs trading for Deng
Kings trading for Gay
Wizards trading for Gortat
Nets trading for Marcus Thornton
Rockets trading for Harden
Raptors trading for Lou Williams
Nuggets trading for Igoudala
Cavs trading for Hawes
Pacers trade for Evan Turner
Bobcats trading for Gary Neal
Warriors trading for Bogut
Lakers trading for Ramon Sessions
Lakers trading for Jordan Hill
Wizards trading for Nene


The funny thing is with Robinson and Augustin the Bulls got more value out from them the last two seasons than anybody on that list with the exception of Nene and Gortat. They didn't have to throw in a pick to get a guy, match salaries or do some multiple three or four team deal to it. Its confusing the activity of other teams with achievement.

Edit: Nene, Gortat and Harden in terms of value
Losing to get high draft picks and hoping they turn into franchise players is not some next level, genius move. That's what teams want to happen in any rebuild/tank or whatever you want to market it as.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#58 » by HomoSapien » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:44 pm

KingCuban wrote:
But we can offer a max contract, and trades would follow on from that, but you need that commitment from the FA before it has to happen.


We can offer a max contract, but our max contract is still quite a bit worse than what NY can offer.

Correct me if i am wrong, but are you suggesting that we should have traded away pieces to open up max cap space in order to entice these FAs with raw cap space?


I'm not suggesting this. I think the Bulls played this off-season well, but what we've learned from it is that ultimately most top flight free-agents won't leave their current teams via free-agency because they stand to have too much to lose. I think, if you want that type of talent, you need to acquire them via trade. It's too much to try and convince them to take less to join your team, and it's too risky to gut your roster in advance of meeting with them.

I shouldn't have included Lebron in the OP, and I think that's what confused people about what my point was. I mentioned him mostly because it showed a theme of how a lack of money has come into play here. Though I think it's absurd that he won't even meet with our team in the first place, due to not being able to offer the max.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#59 » by DJHill » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:56 pm

BrooklynBulls wrote:We are reactive and not proactive in regard to trading. We make trades when we have to get under the tax, dump a bad attitude, clear cap for free agency. These are all reactive trades and not trades based on seeing an undervalued veteran talent. The closest we've gotten to that is the Salmons and Miller trade in 09.


Was just about the mention the Salmons/Miller trade myself. We also got our starting, reigning DPOY Center in a trade but other than that I would have to agree with this post and really have nothing much else to add.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#60 » by sporadiclee » Fri Jul 4, 2014 11:58 pm

It looks like I'm in the supreme minority here, but I agree with the OP, although I don't see the immediate connection to the Lebron situation.

Pax has done some good things in his tenure with the Bulls. He's proved to be a solid, if not spectacular, drafter. He is very adept at clearing cap space. He's done an exceptional job acquiring picks for players who need to be moved. But trading for talent isn't one of his strong suits.

Look a the list of trades involving players that Pax has made since he's been here:

2003-Traded Jalen Rose, Donyell Marshall and Lonny Baxter for Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, and Chris Jefferies.
2003-Traded Roger Mason Jr for Rick Brunson
2004-Traded Jamal Crawford and Jerome Williams for Mutombo, Othello Harrington, Frank Williams and Cezary Trybanski
2004 Traded Mutombo for Mike Wilks, Eric Piatowski and Adrian Griffin
2005-Traded Antonio Davis and Eddy Curry for Mike Sweetney, Jermaine Jackson Tim Thomas and picks
2006-Traded #2 pick for #4 pick and Viktor Khryapa
2007-Traded Tyson Chandler for PJ Brown and JR Smith
2007-Traded JR Smith for Howard Eisley and picks (2nd round)
2007-Traded Eddie Basden for Martynas Andriuskevicius
2008-Traded Ben Wallace, Joe Smith and Adrian Griffin for Larry Hughes, Cedric Simmons, Drew Gooden and Shannon Brown
2009-Traded Drew Gooden, Andres Nocioni, Cedric Simmons and Michael Ruffin for John Salmons and Brad Miller
2009-Traded Larry Hughes for Jerome James, Tim Thomas and Anthony Roberson
2009-Traded Thabo Sefolosha for a pick
2010-Traded Aaron Gray for Devin Brown
2010-Traded Tyrus Thomas for Acie Law, Flip Murray and a pick
2010-Traded John Salmons for Joe Alexander and Hakim Warrick
2010-Traded Kirk Hinrich and a pick for a lower pick
2010-Traded picks for Carlos Boozer (S&T)
2010-Traded picks for CJ Watson
2012-Traded Kyle Korver for TPE
2014-Traded Luol Deng for Andrew Bynum (waived)
2014-Traded Marquis Teague for Tornike Shengelia
2014-Traded picks for Anthony Randolph and picks

The main impetus for the majority of these trades was cost-cutting, adding flexibility or dumping a player we no longer wanted. Rarely was a trade centered around the Bulls giving up assets to upgrade in talent. Sometimes the returns worked out (Antonio Davis, PJ Brown), but the Bulls were still the ones giving up the younger, more talented player(s). The exception is the Noc for Salmons and Miller trade, which upgraded the roster flexibility as well as the product on the floor. Otherwise, these trades are more about rebuilding than getting better in the short-term.

The problem with this pattern is that the Bulls are constantly acquiring assets to use in future moves to upgrade the roster. Yet when it comes time to consolidate those assets for an established player close to his prime, Pax hasn't been able to pull off the deal. The constant shuffling of deck chairs is why we always seem to be looking forward to some Summer of 2010/2014/etc plan. Eventually, you have push your chips into the center of the table and see what happens. Obviously, you don't do a deal just for the sake of doing a deal. But we've seen far too many assets depreciate here before they could be turned over into something of equal or greater value. Then it's back to diving into the free agency pool and overpaying for second-tier players.

None of this matters if Melo commits to Chicago. But if he doesn't, I agree that it's time to take a new approach.

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