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Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls

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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#41 » by drosereturn » Mon Jun 8, 2020 3:28 pm

dougthonus wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:The quotes I've read from Eversley and Udoka over the years suggest a strong preference for tough, two-way players. So does Philly's roster.


Everyone would like those, so it isn't saying much. Philly's actual roster construction shows a significant lack of prioritization around balance, shooting, and offense overall.


Ya. The reason why Philly sucks they dont really have powerhouse two way players Toronto is littered from 1 to 16.
Which is why I didnt like the Philly connection hiring bc all they did is waste Hinkie's assets who did a admirable job as well.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#42 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 8, 2020 3:31 pm

bullsnewdynasty wrote:Boylen is gone, it just looks really bad to fire a guy during the middle of a pandemic when there's no games going on and it's not the offseason yet.


I agree. I think they at least want to meet Boylen face to face to have a feeling of fairness and hear him out. I also think that's a good and reasonable process.

I have no idea if Udoka is good, hopefully he is, but I wouldn't take the Pop thing too far. Boylen worked for Pop too, that didn't make him a good coach. David Fizdale had a similar profile and was a really bad coach.


I also wouldn't take the Pop thing too far. In my career, while I've had good mentors at various points, the majority of my success is based on luck (right place, right time), my own skills, my own hard work. Good mentors and work experience always help, but they are a pretty small piece of the puzzle overall. Pop has had a ton of guys come out of his tree, and some have been good and some have been bad.

I also really don't like the idea of having "frontrunner" for a position that isn't even open yet and not a single interview has been scheduled or conducted.


Philosophically, I agree, but in practice, I think you can absolutely have a front runner. Udoka worked with Eversley for a year. There is almost nothing of value whatsoever that will come out of an interview that's say maybe 10 hours in length compared to a years worth of working with him, especially since that was the last year as well.

Eversley likely already feels that Udoka is good enough to hire right now, and the question is only whether someone else is better. That makes him the front runner.

Beyond that, other people within the Bulls organization worked with Griffin for years and know exactly what he is about as well.

These guys aren't unknown quantities to the organization, these are two guys we have really deep experience with already.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#43 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Mon Jun 8, 2020 3:34 pm

dougthonus wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:The quotes I've read from Eversley and Udoka over the years suggest a strong preference for tough, two-way players. So does Philly's roster.


Everyone would like those, so it isn't saying much. Philly's actual roster construction shows a significant lack of prioritization around balance, shooting, and offense overall.


Everyone says they like tough, two-way players, but Philly sacrificed shooting and perimeter playmaking to roll out Simmons, Embiid, Richardson and GRIII. It’s a walk the walk thing.

I’m not praising that approach necessarily. But I do think that org has a type - one that Eversley himself values.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#44 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 8, 2020 3:41 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:Everyone says they like tough, two-way players, but Philly sacrificed shooting and perimeter playmaking to roll out Simmons, Embiid, Richardson and GRIII. It’s a walk the walk thing.

I’m not praising that approach necessarily. But I do think that org has a type - one that Eversley himself values.


When you sacrifice shooting and playmaking, then it doesn't sound like you have 2 way players. It sounds like you have 1 way players who are tough and defensive, but I guess that gets into a lot of semantics.

In the end, Philly has an awful offense based on their talent level, and I think if they had a bunch of real two way players then that wouldn't be the case.

However, I get the argument that in a vacuum their guys maybe decent offensive players, just too many sharing the same basic flaws of not being able to shoot / create. Granted, I think shooting/creating are the pillars of good offensive players.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#45 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jun 8, 2020 3:56 pm

Doug's right in that people will call 2-way players when they are actually 1-way defensive players.

Taj Gibson was a good example of this for the Bulls.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#46 » by MrFortune3 » Mon Jun 8, 2020 4:18 pm

As I have said before, I am fine with Udoka or Griffin as the next HC.
Both have solid backgrounds and are up and coming assistants who seem to be very good at developing players.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#47 » by UcanUwill » Mon Jun 8, 2020 4:42 pm

P.C. wrote:That dude is like a better looking version of Jason Momoa.


He looks more like Idris Elba to me. I feel like his name has been popping up in rumors for years, he is one of the most likable guys in NBA quarters, probably the most known assistant coach who was never a HC before, maybe only excluding Hammon and Duncan. Or at least thats how I feel. As a player, he played all over the place, he wasnt very talented offensive player, but played into NBA rosters because of his defense.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#48 » by troza » Mon Jun 8, 2020 5:22 pm

I admit that I know nothing about this guy but what is being written in this thread.

I didn't expect a big name coach in the situation we are in. No one would want to come here to develop a team and neither we would want a coach with win at all costs right now when we want to develop the team more than winning.

I'm not saying that we want another loosing season, but we need to make our kids look good to be a place where some superstar wants to play or having enough assets to make it that... if we are lucky, and I doubt this, we have that player right now. We have potential but I doubt that anyone will be that huge superstart for the title, although I belive that Lavine, White and the finnish guy have the potential to actually do interesting things and take us to a nice seed if well coached.

So... after reading some posts: he was an assistant coach for the Spurs and the 76ers. So, two franchises that developed players, did things right in the past that we want to start doing. So... for what we want/need seems like a nice choice.

Best case scenario: Phil Jackson 2.0... I can dream, right? That seems unlikely as we don't have a certain MJ on the rooster... but maybe a Doug Collins would be good a coach that would start to turn arround this franchise. Worst case scenario: equal to what we have right now? I doubt that it can be that bad. He was a player, assistant at some good organizations and players... I guess that at least will be better.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#49 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Mon Jun 8, 2020 6:20 pm

dougthonus wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:Everyone says they like tough, two-way players, but Philly sacrificed shooting and perimeter playmaking to roll out Simmons, Embiid, Richardson and GRIII. It’s a walk the walk thing.

I’m not praising that approach necessarily. But I do think that org has a type - one that Eversley himself values.


When you sacrifice shooting and playmaking, then it doesn't sound like you have 2 way players. It sounds like you have 1 way players who are tough and defensive, but I guess that gets into a lot of semantics.

In the end, Philly has an awful offense based on their talent level, and I think if they had a bunch of real two way players then that wouldn't be the case.

However, I get the argument that in a vacuum their guys maybe decent offensive players, just too many sharing the same basic flaws of not being able to shoot / create. Granted, I think shooting/creating are the pillars of good offensive players.


Philly's offense is bad and a lack of shooting and creating is the culprit. I think it's a case of having two-way players that don't complement one another.

When we look at GRIII/Josh Richardson/Ben Simmons/Embiid/Horford... which of those guys isn't a two-way player? Josh Richardson probably has the weakest case, but I don't consider him a one-way guy like Lavine.

Again, I'm not saying Philly's roster construction makes sense. They're definitely underperforming their talent. I'm only talking about this in the context of Eversley having a type.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#50 » by MGB8 » Mon Jun 8, 2020 6:32 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:Everyone says they like tough, two-way players, but Philly sacrificed shooting and perimeter playmaking to roll out Simmons, Embiid, Richardson and GRIII. It’s a walk the walk thing.

I’m not praising that approach necessarily. But I do think that org has a type - one that Eversley himself values.


When you sacrifice shooting and playmaking, then it doesn't sound like you have 2 way players. It sounds like you have 1 way players who are tough and defensive, but I guess that gets into a lot of semantics.

In the end, Philly has an awful offense based on their talent level, and I think if they had a bunch of real two way players then that wouldn't be the case.

However, I get the argument that in a vacuum their guys maybe decent offensive players, just too many sharing the same basic flaws of not being able to shoot / create. Granted, I think shooting/creating are the pillars of good offensive players.


Philly's offense is bad and a lack of shooting and creating is the culprit. I think it's a case of having two-way players that don't complement one another.

When we look at GRIII/Josh Richardson/Ben Simmons/Embiid/Horford... which of those guys isn't a two-way player? Josh Richardson probably has the weakest case, but I don't consider him a one-way guy like Lavine.

Again, I'm not saying Philly's roster construction makes sense. They're definitely underperforming their talent. I'm only talking about this in the context of Eversley having a type.


Philly's issue isn't about one way or two way players. It's about size/quickness and shooting ability, and what people really don't realize is that Philly was on the way to addressing that by moving Horford to a reserve role.

The Simmons-Richardson-Harris-Horford-Embiid lineup was problematic for the Sixers because Harris is a 4 in the modern NBA playing the 3, and Horford a 5 in the modern NBA, and becomes a bit of an offensive liability when played at the 4. That was compounded by Simmons' lack of shooting, Richardson's off-shooting year, and Embiid only being mediocre from 3.

Basically, not great roster construction.

But the Sixers had moved to playing Harris at the 4 with Horford backing up both the 4 and 5. That opened up room for Thybulle as a wing defender with a good-enough 3, Shake Milotn as a guard who was starting to play out of his mind starting in January of 2020 and especially in March. Korkmaz, Burks and GR3 also got into the rotation.

If they get a rhythm going, the Sixers will be very dangerous.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#51 » by Chi town » Mon Jun 8, 2020 7:00 pm

Phily did the GarPax mistake on steroids... invest heavily in bigs in a wing guard winning nba. Brand made it worse though because he signed his guys to huge deals. GarPax just drafted the bigs.

I sure hope Evs wasn't behind that awful Horford signing.

If they had just kept Jimmy and not signed Horford they would have been right there.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#52 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 8, 2020 7:17 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:Philly's offense is bad and a lack of shooting and creating is the culprit. I think it's a case of having two-way players that don't complement one another.

When we look at GRIII/Josh Richardson/Ben Simmons/Embiid/Horford... which of those guys isn't a two-way player? Josh Richardson probably has the weakest case, but I don't consider him a one-way guy like Lavine.

Again, I'm not saying Philly's roster construction makes sense. They're definitely underperforming their talent. I'm only talking about this in the context of Eversley having a type.


Yeah, semantics aside, because I think we're on the same page there, it will be interesting to see what happens. It's also interesting to know with Eversley how much that type weighed in vs other people in the org and interesting with Udoka to know what his coaching strategy would be (if the we hire him).

One thing that scares me off about both guys a bit is that I feel Philly underperformed the total talent level, and if that's the case it generally means poor coaching or management bringing in guys who were poor fits. There are obviously extenuating circumstances around both things, and neither Udoka or Eversley are necessarily the guys at fault for any of those things, but for a team that starts with a base of Simmons and Embiid, I think they've done a real poor job capitalizing on that base as an organization.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#53 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Mon Jun 8, 2020 10:25 pm

dougthonus wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:Philly's offense is bad and a lack of shooting and creating is the culprit. I think it's a case of having two-way players that don't complement one another.

When we look at GRIII/Josh Richardson/Ben Simmons/Embiid/Horford... which of those guys isn't a two-way player? Josh Richardson probably has the weakest case, but I don't consider him a one-way guy like Lavine.

Again, I'm not saying Philly's roster construction makes sense. They're definitely underperforming their talent. I'm only talking about this in the context of Eversley having a type.


Yeah, semantics aside, because I think we're on the same page there, it will be interesting to see what happens. It's also interesting to know with Eversley how much that type weighed in vs other people in the org and interesting with Udoka to know what his coaching strategy would be (if the we hire him).

One thing that scares me off about both guys a bit is that I feel Philly underperformed the total talent level, and if that's the case it generally means poor coaching or management bringing in guys who were poor fits. There are obviously extenuating circumstances around both things, and neither Udoka or Eversley are necessarily the guys at fault for any of those things, but for a team that starts with a base of Simmons and Embiid, I think they've done a real poor job capitalizing on that base as an organization.



I think Philly has, at minimum, a general roster construction problem, a specific Simmons/Embiid problem, and a Brett Brown problem.

If you're a fan of Eversley, it can't be because of the way that FO has operated, imo. It almost has to be in spite of it.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#54 » by chitownsalesmen » Mon Jun 8, 2020 11:33 pm

P.C. wrote:That dude is like a better looking version of Jason Momoa.




uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


ya know, uh, ya know what, forget it.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#55 » by kulaz3000 » Mon Jun 8, 2020 11:58 pm

I'm not all that familiar with him, but with any head coach, especially a young one, his success and failure will hinge on the assistant coaches he surrounds himself with.

As strong as his development experiences are, he is going to have less time in that regard as a head coach, so as long as he hires like minded coaches around him, he should be a breathe of fresh air for the Bulls.

I'm rooting for him.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#56 » by JohnnyTapwater » Tue Jun 9, 2020 12:42 am

I feel really good about our teams future.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#57 » by Onibuh » Tue Jun 9, 2020 7:37 am

JohnnyTapwater wrote:I feel really good about our teams future.

Everything is better than GarPax after 10+ years and Boylen
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#58 » by erlim » Tue Jun 9, 2020 7:39 am

TheSuzerain wrote:Doug's right in that people will call 2-way players when they are actually 1-way defensive players.

Taj Gibson was a good example of this for the Bulls.


Yeah, you are right. I’d argue Noah and Deng were too. I think people usually think guys like Ben Wallace, where they really couldn’t do anything at all on offense; but Noah and Deng were pretty one dimensional and could only make you pay in limited ways on offense. While you couldn’t just ignore them completely, you also knew they couldn’t shoulder any sort of burden if the team needed buckets.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#59 » by dumbell78 » Tue Jun 9, 2020 8:53 am

Best man for the gig but a part of me wants Griffin to finally get his shot and want it coming from us. He's been a pro throughout his career and I know he would bust ass to make it work.
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Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#60 » by sco » Tue Jun 9, 2020 12:19 pm

I think the one-way/two-way label is a bit simplistic, for one, I think many guys evolve and devolve over their career. Look at Noah. He was easy to label as a defensive specialist, but there were 5 years where he was a 12/12 guys shooting 50% FG% and 75% FT%, and his FT shooting made him a non-liability to keep in at the end of games.
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