Lavine extension and renegotiation

[TheStig]

Draft well and make good trades and free agent signings. Teams like Utah and Denver didn’t get good because of high draft picks. Neither did Miami or Toronto. I’m hoping AK brings what worked for Denver here. We will have no bad contracts after this season, a TON of cap space and a young all-star elite scorer. And probably another lottery pick that could land in the top 5. And one of the biggest markets in the country with a huge following worldwide. There is nothing hopeless about our situation for a front office that knows what they are doing.

For all those examples you named, there are many more failures and lots of luck. Those guys nailed a hail mary late 1st or 2nd round pick to get their guy or Miami signed a star. That's not really a plan. You can't rely on getting a MVP guy with a 2nd rounder or DPOY with a late 1st or signing an all nba guy. It's like saying your financial plan is to buy a bunch of lotto tickets.

Funny considering you just want to live in the literal lottery hoping to find a star. Great players get chosen later than the top 5 all time now and I guess you are completely disregarding Williams as a potential second star or trading for one?

Yes they do get picked up after the top 5. But that's maybe 1 guy a draft. You know where most of those guys get taken? In the top 5 typically. So it's about maximizing those chances. And you don't have to just live at the lottery. You can also get talented guys in the trade. See the PG trade. They got Shai and picks.

Has Williams shown anything that he is a star in the making? I think you've got to show that before you can be considered one.

[WindyCityBorn]

For all those examples you named, there are many more failures and lots of luck. Those guys nailed a hail mary late 1st or 2nd round pick to get their guy or Miami signed a star. That's not really a plan. You can't rely on getting a MVP guy with a 2nd rounder or DPOY with a late 1st or signing an all nba guy. It's like saying your financial plan is to buy a bunch of lotto tickets.

Funny considering you just want to live in the literal lottery hoping to find a star. Great players get chosen later than the top 5 all time now and I guess you are completely disregarding Williams as a potential second star or trading for one?

Yes they do get picked up after the top 5. But that's maybe 1 guy a draft. You know where most of those guys get taken? In the top 5 typically. So it's about maximizing those chances. And you don't have to just live at the lottery. You can also get talented guys in the trade. See the PG trade. They got Shai and picks.

Has Williams shown anything that he is a star in the making? I think you've got to show that before you can be considered one.

Yes I have seen enough to make me believe he has a high level star ceiling. Nothing is guaranteed. And we might end up with a top 5 pick this year. Who knows. I don’t see them blowing it up. Just doesn’t doesn’t make any sense to do that now. Remember Donovan didn’t come here to to rebuild. He could stayed in Oklahoma if we wanted that. Pretty sure that was not AK’s pitch to him nor do I believe he would embrace tanking himself.

[Red8911]

There’s no right or wrong way on how to build a team.Any route taken requires luck for everything to work out. Let’s hope it works out for AK and whatever he decides to do with this roster.

[TheStig]

Funny considering you just want to live in the literal lottery hoping to find a star. Great players get chosen later than the top 5 all time now and I guess you are completely disregarding Williams as a potential second star or trading for one?

Yes they do get picked up after the top 5. But that's maybe 1 guy a draft. You know where most of those guys get taken? In the top 5 typically. So it's about maximizing those chances. And you don't have to just live at the lottery. You can also get talented guys in the trade. See the PG trade. They got Shai and picks.

Has Williams shown anything that he is a star in the making? I think you've got to show that before you can be considered one.

Yes I have seen enough to make me believe he has a high level star ceiling. Nothing is guaranteed. And we might end up with a top 5 pick this year. Who knows. I don’t see them blowing it up. Just doesn’t doesn’t make any sense to do that now. Remember Donovan didn’t come here to to rebuild. He could stayed in Oklahoma if we wanted that. Pretty sure that was not AK’s pitch to him nor do I believe he would embrace tanking himself.

Highly unlikely we end up with a top 5 pick unless we trade Lavine on draft day which I know was not what you meant

I don't really care what Donovan was sold. It's about what's best for the team.

And I haven't seen star potential from PW. Sorry, it's early but I'm not seeing star.

[WindyCityBorn]

Yes they do get picked up after the top 5. But that's maybe 1 guy a draft. You know where most of those guys get taken? In the top 5 typically. So it's about maximizing those chances. And you don't have to just live at the lottery. You can also get talented guys in the trade. See the PG trade. They got Shai and picks.

Has Williams shown anything that he is a star in the making? I think you've got to show that before you can be considered one.

Yes I have seen enough to make me believe he has a high level star ceiling. Nothing is guaranteed. And we might end up with a top 5 pick this year. Who knows. I don’t see them blowing it up. Just doesn’t doesn’t make any sense to do that now. Remember Donovan didn’t come here to to rebuild. He could stayed in Oklahoma if we wanted that. Pretty sure that was not AK’s pitch to him nor do I believe he would embrace tanking himself.

Highly unlikely we end up with a top 5 pick unless we trade Lavine on draft day which I know was not what you meant

I don't really care what Donovan was sold. It's about what's best for the team.

And I haven't seen star potential from PW. Sorry, it's early but I'm not seeing star.

You do realize the odds have changed and is not unrealistic for a team or to jump way up. It’s not 1.7 any more. You still haven’t explained why our situation is so bad. No bad contracts, plenty of cap space, a young star. Yeah Carter and White look like bench players but that not the end of the world. We probably won’t make the playoffs so another lottery pick(which could packaged for a star). I just don’t see the doom and gloom of how we are screwed.

[DroseReturnChi]

Yes they do get picked up after the top 5. But that's maybe 1 guy a draft. You know where most of those guys get taken? In the top 5 typically. So it's about maximizing those chances. And you don't have to just live at the lottery. You can also get talented guys in the trade. See the PG trade. They got Shai and picks.

Has Williams shown anything that he is a star in the making? I think you've got to show that before you can be considered one.

Even if Williams later became a star this team has no future.
To win anything, you need 3 all stars and everyone knows you dont have room for 2 after Lavine gets a max.
I would only renegotiate to trade him later like Lauri. Keeping him long term makes 0 sense.
The goal should have been try to resign Lavine/Lauri to cost controlled not into 40/30 max contracts.

[TheStig]

Yes I have seen enough to make me believe he has a high level star ceiling. Nothing is guaranteed. And we might end up with a top 5 pick this year. Who knows. I don’t see them blowing it up. Just doesn’t doesn’t make any sense to do that now. Remember Donovan didn’t come here to to rebuild. He could stayed in Oklahoma if we wanted that. Pretty sure that was not AK’s pitch to him nor do I believe he would embrace tanking himself.

Highly unlikely we end up with a top 5 pick unless we trade Lavine on draft day which I know was not what you meant

I don't really care what Donovan was sold. It's about what's best for the team.

And I haven't seen star potential from PW. Sorry, it's early but I'm not seeing star.

You do realize the odds have changed and is not unrealistic for a team or to jump way up. It’s not 1.7 any more. You still haven’t explained why our situation is so bad. No bad contracts, plenty of cap space, a young star. Yeah Carter and White look like bench players but that not the end of the world. We probably won’t make the playoffs so another lottery pick(which could packaged for a star). I just don’t see the doom and gloom of how we are screwed.

You're right, it's not 1.7 anymore, we currently only have a 1.5% chance at the #1

We also have plenty of cap space in a FA class of no stars hitting the market.

And the number 15 pick and our bench young players isn't getting you a star.

I don't see the optimism or the makings of a team that can aspire to anything other than the play in tourny.

[Jcool0]

Yes they do get picked up after the top 5. But that's maybe 1 guy a draft. You know where most of those guys get taken? In the top 5 typically. So it's about maximizing those chances. And you don't have to just live at the lottery. You can also get talented guys in the trade. See the PG trade. They got Shai and picks.

Has Williams shown anything that he is a star in the making? I think you've got to show that before you can be considered one.

Even if Williams later became a star this team has no future.
To win anything, you need 3 all stars and everyone knows you dont have room for 2 after Lavine gets a max.
I would only renegotiate to trade him later like Lauri. Keeping him long term makes 0 sense.
Keeping Lavine only makes things complicated now your messing up with the greatest draft similar to Doncic.

Just because you don't think Zach is a max player doesn't change the fact that any team can afford 2-3 max players.

[MrSparkle]

You win with 3 all-stars. Obviously the way to accomplish that is by dumping your one and only star.

*brain explodes *

[DroseReturnChi]

Just because you don't think Zach is a max player doesn't change the fact that any team can afford 2-3 max players.

Well I think he is worth max just not the veteran max which makes it impossible to contend esp after Lauri making another 20.
We already had this similar situation in Jimmy Butler and garpax made the right call to trade.
I doubt AK is dumber than Garpax to not make the call when its hurting the draft pick while not able to add major talent.

Basically, any contender has some sort of 3 max structure. I do count guys like Wood, Grant making less than 20 as a max player but what are the chances they get those guys locked up cheap? At this point, signing Lavine to old supermax is only good for lavine fans but not for the franchise as a whole. Its actually a franchise killer move but inevitable just like Cavs were forced with Love.
Ironically, Rockets have theoretically 2 stars in Oladipo and Wood AK needs to sell every asset to make a 3 star lineup. Dipo-Lavine-PW-Lauri-Wood is the only viable comp White/Carter/1st need to go ASAP.

[TheStig]

Yes they do get picked up after the top 5. But that's maybe 1 guy a draft. You know where most of those guys get taken? In the top 5 typically. So it's about maximizing those chances. And you don't have to just live at the lottery. You can also get talented guys in the trade. See the PG trade. They got Shai and picks.

Has Williams shown anything that he is a star in the making? I think you've got to show that before you can be considered one.

Even if Williams later became a star this team has no future.
To win anything, you need 3 all stars and everyone knows you dont have room for 2 after Lavine gets a max.
I would only renegotiate to trade him later like Lauri. Keeping him long term makes 0 sense.
Keeping Lavine only makes things complicated now your messing up with the greatest draft similar to Doncic.

Just because you don't think Zach is a max player doesn't change the fact that any team can afford 2-3 max players.

Where did you get that from my statement?

A team with no salaries can afford 2-3 max salaries. Not a team with a max player and other salaries. And again, there are no great FA's hitting the market in the next couple of years. So this FA plan is flawed.

[Jcool0]

Even if Williams later became a star this team has no future.
To win anything, you need 3 all stars and everyone knows you dont have room for 2 after Lavine gets a max.
I would only renegotiate to trade him later like Lauri. Keeping him long term makes 0 sense.
Keeping Lavine only makes things complicated now your messing up with the greatest draft similar to Doncic.

Just because you don't think Zach is a max player doesn't change the fact that any team can afford 2-3 max players.

Where did you get that from my statement?

A team with no salaries can afford 2-3 max salaries. Not a team with a max player and other salaries. And again, there are no great FA's hitting the market in the next couple of years. So this FA plan is flawed.

Your statement? You weren't even apart of this unless DroseReturnChi is your account? Who said this had to be a FA plan. You can make trades to get a second star.

[TheStig]

Just because you don't think Zach is a max player doesn't change the fact that any team can afford 2-3 max players.

Where did you get that from my statement?

A team with no salaries can afford 2-3 max salaries. Not a team with a max player and other salaries. And again, there are no great FA's hitting the market in the next couple of years. So this FA plan is flawed.

Your statement? You weren't even apart of this unless DroseReturnChi is your account? Who said this had to be a FA plan. You can make trades to get a second star.

Sorry, my bad, not sure why I thought you were quoting me.

What are you trading for a star? Who is moving a star for some combo of coby, wc, lauri and 15-23 picks (the latter of the range assuming you get a star).

[MrSparkle]

15 out of the league's top-15 stars are "settled" ... Locked into long contracts, already teamed up with their co-superstars... the only guy remotely worth praying for is Kawhi, if PG and the Clippers totally shatter and he opts out for a new situation.

Can we lay off the crack-pot 3-star FA plans (which apparently doesn't even include Zach, because he'd clog the books)?

This team has no business making contender moves until 2025, barre some fantasy situation where Kawhi and Davis decide Hollywood is not for them and they prefer driving on the Dan Ryan during the next polar vortex.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Lavine at 4/120 is good value, Lavinr at 5/190 not really. He would get payed, but he isnt really top max player, more like second tier ala Fox,Porzingis,Love in term of impact of those players before their pay day. If he is not willing to sign deal similar Otto got from Wizards, here are some potential reallistic trades to look
Knicks M.Robinson, I.Quickly, O.Toppin, two Dallas frp 21,23 and two srp one being Pistons 2021.
Warriors Minesotta frp 21, Oubre, Paschall, Looney, Gsw frp 2023. Bulls flipp Oubre for late first from contender.
Nuggets Hampton, Bol, Nnaji, Garry Harris, Nuggets frp
In that case Bulls should sell all of their veterans and positioned them selves for two lottery picks in 2021 and salary cap to sign multi year deals for two young starting caliber players for right price.

[TheStig]

15 out of the league's top-15 stars are "settled" ... Locked into long contracts, teamed up with their co-superstars... the only guy remotely worth praying for is Kawhi, if PG and the Clippers totally shatter and he opts out for a new situation.

Can we lay off the crack-pot 3-star FA plans (which apparently doesn't even include Zach, because he'd clog the books)?

This is what I was trying to point out. There are no star FA's to sign in the next couple of years.

If a star does become available, the package of Coby, WC, Lauri and pics is easily beaten by teams with better prospects and/or picks.

I just don't see the path out there to really make big strides with the team. The only path I see is making a move like overpaying a vet like Lowry to make an incremental improvement. A guy like Lowry would push us into the playoffs but not out of the 1st round.

[MrSparkle]

15 out of the league's top-15 stars are "settled" ... Locked into long contracts, teamed up with their co-superstars... the only guy remotely worth praying for is Kawhi, if PG and the Clippers totally shatter and he opts out for a new situation.

Can we lay off the crack-pot 3-star FA plans (which apparently doesn't even include Zach, because he'd clog the books)?

This is what I was trying to point out. There are no star FA's to sign in the next couple of years.

If a star does become available, the package of Coby, WC, Lauri and pics is easily beaten by teams with better prospects and/or picks.

I just don't see the path out there to really make big strides with the team. The only path I see is making a move like overpaying a vet like Lowry to make an incremental improvement. A guy like Lowry would push us into the playoffs but not out of the 1st round.

Yeah - I'm firmly against the GarPax style of overpaying over-the-hill players. Lowry is about to turn 35, going on 36 by the time he's signed. He has 1-2 years of basketball left. A mentoring stop-gap is not worth that money (Phoenix making me eat crow, but I still think that after this year, they're in trouble). Guys like Temple can provide the same thing for $5m.

If the Bulls sign a guy, he needs to bring 3-4 years of good starting basketball, not a 1-year-maybe and a retirement party. I can resign Thad to something reasonable and long-term, because he's here already, he fits and he's not 35.

Key is simply patience. There are 7 rookie salaries on the books.. and half the veterans are not real NBA veterans, or perpetually injured... you can keep adding lotto talent or dumping for cap, but the team is going to remain inconsistent and mediocre until there are less rookie salaries in the rotation than healthy, prime veterans.

IMO , considering a short-rotation and getting through 2 months with 3-4 rookie-scale starters who don't even compliment each other at all, this team is in "optimal" shape, short of having a Zion or Luka type of building block. The rookie prodigy is a far-fetched casino to gamble on.

[Stratmaster]

Here is my understanding restated: The extension would go 5 years from the day it was signed, which would be an additional 4 years to his current contract.

As far as the team, I kind of thing Chicago is screwed. Years of bad drafting is biting the team in the rear. Every team that isn't a high spending super trio needs a constant supply of cheap, contributing young players. The Bulls whiffing on almost every pick from 2012 to 2019 really gutted the organization in ways I don't think people fully appreciate. The only way to really fix this quickly is some great, cheap, free agent pick ups.

I agree but that's why I think you move Lavine and use that to jump start your rebuild. If you can negotiate a great package, it makes sense.

Otherwise, I think you need to use cap space, add a vet or two next year and spring for the 8th seed and hope it works out. If you pay out Lavine instead, you're bringing the same cr@p team back without Lauri. The young talent just isn't there as you said. You desperately need a couple of starters. So I don't see how you can really build anything with this team. You don't have assets for a trade for a star, you don't have cap space to sign 2 stars (nor are there star FA's available via FA) and you have no really good young players.

We have a viable #1 option on the team and the ability to free-up space for 2 max slots. We won't be in a better place to build on from here for a long time. Even if you got 3 #1's for Zach, the chance that one of them is better than him has to be pretty low.

Truth

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Stratmaster]

You win with 3 all-stars. Obviously the way to accomplish that is by dumping your one and only star.

*brain explodes *

I was trying to think of how to explain it in a way people would understand. You just did it for me.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Stratmaster]

Where did you get that from my statement?

A team with no salaries can afford 2-3 max salaries. Not a team with a max player and other salaries. And again, there are no great FA's hitting the market in the next couple of years. So this FA plan is flawed.

Your statement? You weren't even apart of this unless DroseReturnChi is your account? Who said this had to be a FA plan. You can make trades to get a second star.

Sorry, my bad, not sure why I thought you were quoting me.

What are you trading for a star? Who is moving a star for some combo of coby, wc, lauri and 15-23 picks (the latter of the range assuming you get a star).

I think the star discussion is misguided. A lot of players become "stars" due to the talent around them improving.

Back to basics. Right now the Bulls need a quality Center and PG. They don't have to be stars right now if they are already quality starters and have upside.

Did anyone think Thad would be the player he is right now? If he were a few years younger and played this role consistently at this level the only thing keeping him out of an all star game is that all stars are always scorers. The Bulls have scorers.

You try to keep Zach, Lauri and Pwill, and you trade Carter plus a piece (Coby if you have to, Val or Gaff if you can get away with it) along with a draft pick and you get either the PG or Center you want.

Certainly if you trade Carter plus a piece plus your pick, you get a piece back that is more valuable than Carter, right?

Wouldn't Coby, Gaff and your pick get you a piece back that is better than Coby?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app