Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[gardenofsound]

Honestly... any time he passes out of an open look or simply hesitates and loses that open look... sub him out. Once he's on the bench, a coach or vet needs to be in his ear about why he's on the bench.

When they watch tape... pause the tape at those moments and again, call him out.

The question we need to answer is... is his lack of aggression an anxiety related issue (a la playoff Ben Simmons) or a deference issue? If it's the former, then that's a deeper issue (and positive reinforcement needs to be the name of the game). If it's the latter, then he needs the vets and coaches in his ear to remind him that he's out there for a reason.

[The Force.]

I really think he's in the worst possible situation for his own development playing what is essentially the Keith Bogans role for us. It will be all too easy for him to fall back on his natural passivity when what he needs to do is step outside his comfort zone.

I disagree. If anything Pat should be flourishing with all the attention being placed on the other three guys. He's had pretty open looks each of the last two games and failed to really capitalize other than hitting a couple 3s and making one nice cut to the basket. I counted at least three possessions during the Pistons game where he had a lane but opted for a midrange j or pass. Admittedly he's likely still getting his rhythm back but there's no reason he shouldn't be putting up close to 14-7 on good efficiency every game, particularly when the main guys are struggling.

[FriedRise]

I really think he's in the worst possible situation for his own development playing what is essentially the Keith Bogans role for us. It will be all too easy for him to fall back on his natural passivity when what he needs to do is step outside his comfort zone.

I disagree. If anything Pat should be flourishing with all the attention being placed on the other three guys. He's had pretty open looks each of the last two games and failed to really capitalize other than hitting a couple 3s and making one nice cut to the basket. I counted at least three possessions during the Pistons game where he had a lane but opted for a midrange j or pass. Admittedly he's likely still getting his rhythm back but there's no reason he shouldn't be putting up close to 14-7 on good efficiency every game, particularly when the main guys are struggling.

I'd be happy if Pat can capitalize on having a quick trigger on the open 3s he's getting and immediately cutting when his defender is caught ball-watching. He can rack up some serious easy points doing that all game long.

That and playing some tough defense.

But I get it, it's a new team. He doesn't yet know when Zach or DDR or Vooch has the ball, if they want him crowding the paint by cutting or if they'd prefer the space. It's not uncommon for a second year player to be hesitant when they're surrounded by all these score-first veterans.

[sco]

https://pippenainteasy.com/2021/10/21/chicago-bulls-patrick-williams-still-needs-to-be-more-aggressive/

what is this guy's RealGM id? He seems to get a lot of ideas here.

[GoBlue72391]

https://pippenainteasy.com/2021/10/21/chicago-bulls-patrick-williams-still-needs-to-be-more-aggressive/

what is this guy's RealGM id? He seems to get a lot of ideas here.

I read that and don't think he took any ideas from RealGM regarding PWill. He just said common knowledge stuff that the majority of Bulls fans agree with (i.e. being too passive, having too much talent to be so passive, etc.)

[Fl_Flash]

I really think Pat should be coming off the bench with the second unit. It isn't that I necessarily think that this is a "demotion" for him as much as it is - with the starters, Pat is the fifth option. Maybe fourth in front of Ball. He's not going to be aggressive and look for his shots because it's in his nature to be deferential.

If he's out there with the second unit, it'll be incumbent on him to be more offensively aggressive. He needs to train himself to take the game into his own hands. On the second unit he becomes either option 1 or, at worst, 1a. I think that'll help him to learn that he can be more aggressive and when he does overall good things happen.

If he stays with the starters, I just don't see much changing for him. He's comfortable as a cog. He's said so himself. The coaching staff needs to get him out of that mentality and I think one of the best ways to do that is to put him in more of a scorers role off the bench. I think we'll have a helluva bench unit when Coby comes back along with P-Will and Caruso. Let Pat become comfortable with taking more of the offense on his shoulders. Give him opportunities to succeed and I think that will translate to when he's ready to start and not be shy about "getting his own".

[GoBlue72391]

I really think he's in the worst possible situation for his own development playing what is essentially the Keith Bogans role for us. It will be all too easy for him to fall back on his natural passivity when what he needs to do is step outside his comfort zone.

I disagree. If anything Pat should be flourishing with all the attention being placed on the other three guys. He's had pretty open looks each of the last two games and failed to really capitalize other than hitting a couple 3s and making one nice cut to the basket. I counted at least three possessions during the Pistons game where he had a lane but opted for a midrange j or pass. Admittedly he's likely still getting his rhythm back but there's no reason he shouldn't be putting up close to 14-7 on good efficiency every game, particularly when the main guys are struggling.

14 and 7 as our 5th option is like the ideal scenario, so I don't think we should expect that. He's definitely too good to be putting up Bogans-esque statlines of 6 points and no other box score contributions though, which is on the opposite end as the worst case scenario.

Can he be successful in this current role? Yes, absolutely. As you said, he has 4 other guys the defense is more concerned about so he should get a number of easy buckets. But if he's ever going to approach his ceiling, which I don't think is as high as many others do, it's not going to happen as a low usage 5th option.

How is he going to develop shot creation, post-up, playmaking, ball handling, and foul drawing skills when all he's asked to do is take a few open 3s, an occasional pull up mid, and the odd cut here and there every game? Practice and summer time workouts only go so far, eventually you have to start doing it in real games.

At some point he's going to have to take on a bigger role in order to develop properly, but barring injury or trade that's not going to happen here for at least the next 2 seasons. If he was an aggressive young player or even had the normal level or aggression I wouldn't be that concerned about his limited role affecting his development, but considering he's abnormally passive for a player of any caliber it definitely has me concerned that this is just going to reinforce his passivity even more.

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[GoBlue72391]

I really think Pat should be coming off the bench with the second unit. It isn't that I necessarily think that this is a "demotion" for him as much as it is - with the starters, Pat is the fifth option. Maybe fourth in front of Ball. He's not going to be aggressive and look for his shots because it's in his nature to be deferential.

If he's out there with the second unit, it'll be incumbent on him to be more offensively aggressive. He needs to train himself to take the game into his own hands. On the second unit he becomes either option 1 or, at worst, 1a. I think that'll help him to learn that he can be more aggressive and when he does overall good things happen.

If he stays with the starters, I just don't see much changing for him. He's comfortable as a cog. He's said so himself. The coaching staff needs to get him out of that mentality and I think one of the best ways to do that is to put him in more of a scorers role off the bench. I think we'll have a helluva bench unit when Coby comes back along with P-Will and Caruso. Let Pat become comfortable with taking more of the offense on his shoulders. Give him opportunities to succeed and I think that will translate to when he's ready to start and not be shy about "getting his own".

I agree. Using him as one of our primary bench scorers rather than as the Keith Bogans of our starting lineup seems like a good middle ground between doing what's best for the team and what's best for his development.

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[gardenofsound]

I really think Pat should be coming off the bench with the second unit. It isn't that I necessarily think that this is a "demotion" for him as much as it is - with the starters, Pat is the fifth option. Maybe fourth in front of Ball. He's not going to be aggressive and look for his shots because it's in his nature to be deferential.

If he's out there with the second unit, it'll be incumbent on him to be more offensively aggressive. He needs to train himself to take the game into his own hands. On the second unit he becomes either option 1 or, at worst, 1a. I think that'll help him to learn that he can be more aggressive and when he does overall good things happen.

If he stays with the starters, I just don't see much changing for him. He's comfortable as a cog. He's said so himself. The coaching staff needs to get him out of that mentality and I think one of the best ways to do that is to put him in more of a scorers role off the bench. I think we'll have a helluva bench unit when Coby comes back along with P-Will and Caruso. Let Pat become comfortable with taking more of the offense on his shoulders. Give him opportunities to succeed and I think that will translate to when he's ready to start and not be shy about "getting his own".

I agree. Using him as one of our primary bench scorers rather than as the Keith Bogans of our starting lineup seems like a good middle ground between doing what's best for the team and what's best for his development.

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Then who starts, though?

This is where that big man depth really starts to hurt because it hampers such flexibility.

I'd be open to rolling with Javonte but in the regular season, I'd feel very concerned about him matching up with some of the taller/longer 4's like Durant, Giannis, etc. Not that anyone will "shut them down" but Williams at least has the length to contest them.

[Fl_Flash]

I really think Pat should be coming off the bench with the second unit. It isn't that I necessarily think that this is a "demotion" for him as much as it is - with the starters, Pat is the fifth option. Maybe fourth in front of Ball. He's not going to be aggressive and look for his shots because it's in his nature to be deferential.

If he's out there with the second unit, it'll be incumbent on him to be more offensively aggressive. He needs to train himself to take the game into his own hands. On the second unit he becomes either option 1 or, at worst, 1a. I think that'll help him to learn that he can be more aggressive and when he does overall good things happen.

If he stays with the starters, I just don't see much changing for him. He's comfortable as a cog. He's said so himself. The coaching staff needs to get him out of that mentality and I think one of the best ways to do that is to put him in more of a scorers role off the bench. I think we'll have a helluva bench unit when Coby comes back along with P-Will and Caruso. Let Pat become comfortable with taking more of the offense on his shoulders. Give him opportunities to succeed and I think that will translate to when he's ready to start and not be shy about "getting his own".

I agree. Using him as one of our primary bench scorers rather than as the Keith Bogans of our starting lineup seems like a good middle ground between doing what's best for the team and what's best for his development.

Sent from my SM-S115DL using RealGM Forums mobile app

Then who starts, though?

This is where that big man depth really starts to hurt because it hampers such flexibility.

I'd be open to rolling with Javonte but in the regular season, I'd feel very concerned about him matching up with some of the taller/longer 4's like Durant, Giannis, etc. Not that anyone will "shut them down" but Williams at least has the length to contest them.

Javonte or even start Alize. As a fifth option you ideally want a glue guy out there. One you don't run plays for who'll do the little things needed (like rebounding and defending). Either of those guys would be fine as the fifth starter. Let P-Will work with the second unit to condition him to be more aggressive.

When you're playing any really great player you've got to team defend anyways. Nobody is stopping Giannis, Durant, Davis, Curry, Lebron, etc single-handedly. You do your best to limit them and try to make then pay on the other side of the ball.

[PrimzyBulls81]

You guys wrote few good arguments and I agree with those who say he should start off bench.
With starters go with Javonte or Alize.

[Dresden]

I can only hope that the coach sees something in him that I, or many others here, haven't. I mean, there has to be a reason Donovan is starting him and playing him so many minutes. Either they think he has a lot of potential, or they see that in practice, or maybe he's just the best option available to them. Whatever the case, I hope they are right. Because I don't see a ton of potential there right now. He just doesn't show much- a lot like Wendell. We heard all about Wendell's skills and his talent, but we never saw even flashes of that on the court. I'm afraid PWill be the same story.

[The Force.]

Pat has to start because he’s the only player with PF size who can hit a 3. You saw how Detroit was repeatedly exploiting our undersized wings with Jerami Grant. Unless the Bulls acquire an additional player with size, Pat will be the starting 4.


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[R3AL1TY]

I hope Pat doesn't get too inconsistent with confidence and aggression or get even worse than his first season. I know it's still early for him, but it sucks seeing a player having all the tools to be a good role player or star, but never ends up there.

[ikeziskash]

Agree with most of this thread. He’s way too passive and on top of it displaying no motor.

[ikeziskash]

He needs a Udonis Haslem type to show him the ropes.

[sco]

I really think he's in the worst possible situation for his own development playing what is essentially the Keith Bogans role for us. It will be all too easy for him to fall back on his natural passivity when what he needs to do is step outside his comfort zone.

I disagree. If anything Pat should be flourishing with all the attention being placed on the other three guys. He's had pretty open looks each of the last two games and failed to really capitalize other than hitting a couple 3s and making one nice cut to the basket. I counted at least three possessions during the Pistons game where he had a lane but opted for a midrange j or pass. Admittedly he's likely still getting his rhythm back but there's no reason he shouldn't be putting up close to 14-7 on good efficiency every game, particularly when the main guys are struggling.

14 and 7 as our 5th option is like the ideal scenario, so I don't think we should expect that. He's definitely too good to be putting up Bogans-esque statlines of 6 points and no other box score contributions though, which is on the opposite end as the worst case scenario.

Can he be successful in this current role? Yes, absolutely. As you said, he has 4 other guys the defense is more concerned about so he should get a number of easy buckets. But if he's ever going to approach his ceiling, which I don't think is as high as many others do, it's not going to happen as a low usage 5th option.

How is he going to develop shot creation, post-up, playmaking, ball handling, and foul drawing skills when all he's asked to do is take a few open 3s, an occasional pull up mid, and the odd cut here and there every game? Practice and summer time workouts only go so far, eventually you have to start doing it in real games.

At some point he's going to have to take on a bigger role in order to develop properly, but barring injury or trade that's not going to happen here for at least the next 2 seasons. If he was an aggressive young player or even had the normal level or aggression I wouldn't be that concerned about his limited role affecting his development, but considering he's abnormally passive for a player of any caliber it definitely has me concerned that this is just going to reinforce his passivity even more.

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Barring one of the bench guys massively outperforming Pat, I don't see him being benched. Also, I think the starters will push him to take more shots, based on what I've seen from those guys so far. That said, I don't think there is a 5th option guy around the league who averages in double-digits.

I think the right move is to have Pat and DD spread their minutes to play more with bench guys (which I think Billy is doing), so Pat becomes the defacto 2nd/3rd option with that group.

[GoBlue72391]

Pat has to start because he’s the only player with PF size who can hit a 3. You saw how Detroit was repeatedly exploiting our undersized wings with Jerami Grant. Unless the Bulls acquire an additional player with size, Pat will be the starting 4.


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I don't think he has an infinite leash as the starting PF barring a trade like you do, but you summed up why he starts for us and I'm sure they'll give him at least 15-20 games before considering any changes.

[PlayerUp]

- No motor
- No energy
- Not aggressive
- Way too conservative

He's the complete opposite mentally of LaMelo Ball picked 1 above him. Will he ever grow out of this?

[Flopper]

He's Jeff Green. In about 5 years, some fanbase will be super excited about signing him for the MLE.