From Chicago: the AYO Thread

[Jello Biafra]

He’s the Taj Gibson at combo guard.

That is a good comparison. Taj really stood out as one of the few rookies who made it seem like the game wasn't moving too fast for him. I do see that in Ayo too.

Also, Taj was called Taj "not Dejuan Blair" Gibson after the draft. Ayo might as well be Ayo "not Sharife Cooper" Dosunmu.

Maybe the most astute post of the season so far.

[waffle]

what I like is that he never seems to be caught in no man's land on D. He's always MOVING to where he SHOULD be, not running to get to where he was SUPPOSED to have been.

[Grodoboldo]

That is a good comparison. Taj really stood out as one of the few rookies who made it seem like the game wasn't moving too fast for him. I do see that in Ayo too.

Also, Taj was called Taj "not Dejuan Blair" Gibson after the draft. Ayo might as well be Ayo "not Sharife Cooper" Dosunmu.

Maybe the most astute post of the season so far.

LOL, thank you!

Just to be clear, I'm not **** on anyone who wanted Cooper. I myself would have drafted Cooper back then (though I never considered Ayo a bad pick, he was a 1st round talent for sure).

Just like I would have taken Blair over Taj that draft.

Hmmm, I'm sensing a pettern here. Maybe I'm no fit for a front office role

[CjayC]

The moment doesn't look too big for him at the moment. It's early, but props to AKME. If you can get a rotational player out of a 2nd round pick you're winning.

[meekrab]

My only contribution at this time is that Stacy’s “Ayo Silver, Away!” is cringe AF, even for him.

Between the Bane voice and Ayo Silver I'm finding myself strongly tempted to watch the opposing teams' broadcasts.

Ayo is dope though, kid's going to cause AKME some tough decisions when his contract is up.

[madvillian]

So I've been convinced forever you need 2/3 of these things to be a good finisher as guard at the rim in the NBA: length, explosion, body control. The most important is actually body control and then probably explosion but if you don't have that length is a good thing as well. Some examples.

Kris Dunn: great length, horrible body control, decent explosion overall trash tier finisher.

Kyrie Irving: mediocre length, mediocre explosion, world class body control overall incredible finisher.

Ayo: great length, below average explosion, average body control and average or so so finisher.

If he can hit his threes and finish at an average NBA clip at the rim for a PG he'll have a very long career. His defense is his "carrying tool" as they say in baseball so he just has to be mediocre on offense to have a role. If he's average offensively he'll be a solid starter. Maybe he can get there, maybe he doesn't but early on it looks like Chicago has found a great 2nd round asset.

[SHO'NUFF]

Ayo plays with the attitude like he knows he belongs. Though not super athletic vertically (or possible lack of explosion), he’s got the finesse and craftiness to score inside. He has the right type of frame with the potential to add more muscle. Them Nigerians, they ain’t right…they’re built different.


I found this quote online regarding his “max” vertical:

Dosunmu is not seen as a plus leaper, so he wanted to change that perception. After completing the standing vertical jump, Dosunmu lined up for the max vertical jump. He took a few gather steps in before leaping off his left leg, his right leg gliding, as his right hand touched the ladders on the machine. Dosunmu measured a 39-inch vertical, a positive step in the right direction for him. But he wasn’t satisfied.

“I told myself I wanted a 40,” Dosunmu said. “That’s what I’ve been working on. I wanted a 40-inch vertical. It was good; 39 is an improvement. The last time I did it, I was around 35, 36.”

https://dailyillini.com/sports/2021/06/28/dosunmu-shows-off-vertical-enjoys-in-person-interviews-nba-combine/

https://www.nbabigboard.com/p/draft-combine-athletic-testing


Ayo Draft Measurements:

Height (No Shoes): 6’3.5”
Height (w/Shoes): 6’5.0”
Standing Reach: 8’6.0”
Wingspan: 6’10.25
Hand Length: 8.50”
Hand Width: 8.75”

Lane Agility: 11.51 (seconds)
Shuttle Run: 3.27 (seconds)
Three Quarter Sprint: 3.23 (seconds)
Standing Vertical: 27”
Max Vertical: 33.5” (though articles claim he reached 39” but 33.5” sounds about right)

https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-anthro/?sort=PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-strength-agility/?sort=PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1

Personally, i think the numbers above are why he dropped all the way to the second round. But, if you’ve got the BBall IQ and good enough length you can makeup for it.


Denzel Valentine Draft Measurements (for fun)

Height (No Shoes): 6’4”
Height (w/Shoes): 6’5.75”
Standing Reach: 8’6.0”
Wingspan: 6’10.75”
Hand Length: 8.50”
Hand Width: 9.75”

Lane Agility: 10.51 (seconds)
Shuttle Run: 3.22 (seconds)
Three Quarter Sprint: 3.46 (seconds)
Standing Vertical: 27”
Max Vertical: 32”

Damn, Denzel had him beat in Lane Agility, & Shuttle Run.

https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-strength-agility/?sort=PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1&SeasonYear=2016-17

[othawhitemeat]

Ayo plays with the attitude like he knows he belongs. Though not super athletic vertically (or possible lack of explosion), he’s got the finesse and craftiness to score inside. He has the right type of frame with the potential to add more muscle. Them Nigerians, they ain’t right…they’re built different.


I found this quote online regarding his “max” vertical:

Dosunmu is not seen as a plus leaper, so he wanted to change that perception. After completing the standing vertical jump, Dosunmu lined up for the max vertical jump. He took a few gather steps in before leaping off his left leg, his right leg gliding, as his right hand touched the ladders on the machine. Dosunmu measured a 39-inch vertical, a positive step in the right direction for him. But he wasn’t satisfied.

“I told myself I wanted a 40,” Dosunmu said. “That’s what I’ve been working on. I wanted a 40-inch vertical. It was good; 39 is an improvement. The last time I did it, I was around 35, 36.”

https://dailyillini.com/sports/2021/06/28/dosunmu-shows-off-vertical-enjoys-in-person-interviews-nba-combine/

https://www.nbabigboard.com/p/draft-combine-athletic-testing


Ayo Draft Measurements:

Height (No Shoes): 6’3.5”
Height (w/Shoes): 6’5.0”
Standing Reach: 8’6.0”
Wingspan: 6’10.25
Hand Length: 8.50”
Hand Width: 8.75”

Lane Agility: 11.51 (seconds)
Shuttle Run: 3.27 (seconds)
Three Quarter Sprint: 3.23 (seconds)
Standing Vertical: 27”
Max Vertical: 33.5” (though articles claim he reached 39” but 33.5” sounds about right)

https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-anthro/?sort=PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-strength-agility/?sort=PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1

Personally, i think the numbers above are why he dropped all the way to the second round. But, if you’ve got the BBall IQ and good enough length you can makeup for it.


Denzel Valentine Draft Measurements (for fun)

Height (No Shoes): 6’4”
Height (w/Shoes): 6’5.75”
Standing Reach: 8’6.0”
Wingspan: 6’10.75”
Hand Length: 8.50”
Hand Width: 9.75”

Lane Agility: 10.51 (seconds)
Shuttle Run: 3.22 (seconds)
Three Quarter Sprint: 3.46 (seconds)
Standing Vertical: 27”
Max Vertical: 32”

Damn, Denzel had him beat in Lane Agility, & Shuttle Run.

https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-strength-agility/?sort=PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1&SeasonYear=2016-17

One, Ayo is very fast straightline speed and two, Ayo did not have any injury concerns like Denzel when entering. I think another thing is while both were celebrated college players, Ayo to me is a more versatile scorer, better defensive acumen, and better ball-handler. Denzel was a better shooter and they are both elite passers. However, Ayo has great handles in terms of crossovers, mid-range, much more fluid in movements and less robotics, and again is much faster straight line speed.

On separate note, they are not same players but I could see Ayo being a clutch glue player like a Shaun Livingston type when he played for Warriors. Maybe not the post up game and better handles/shooting from 3, but similar impact.

[sco]

Ayo plays with the attitude like he knows he belongs. Though not super athletic vertically (or possible lack of explosion), he’s got the finesse and craftiness to score inside. He has the right type of frame with the potential to add more muscle. Them Nigerians, they ain’t right…they’re built different.


I found this quote online regarding his “max” vertical:

Dosunmu is not seen as a plus leaper, so he wanted to change that perception. After completing the standing vertical jump, Dosunmu lined up for the max vertical jump. He took a few gather steps in before leaping off his left leg, his right leg gliding, as his right hand touched the ladders on the machine. Dosunmu measured a 39-inch vertical, a positive step in the right direction for him. But he wasn’t satisfied.

“I told myself I wanted a 40,” Dosunmu said. “That’s what I’ve been working on. I wanted a 40-inch vertical. It was good; 39 is an improvement. The last time I did it, I was around 35, 36.”

https://dailyillini.com/sports/2021/06/28/dosunmu-shows-off-vertical-enjoys-in-person-interviews-nba-combine/

https://www.nbabigboard.com/p/draft-combine-athletic-testing


Ayo Draft Measurements:

Height (No Shoes): 6’3.5”
Height (w/Shoes): 6’5.0”
Standing Reach: 8’6.0”
Wingspan: 6’10.25
Hand Length: 8.50”
Hand Width: 8.75”

Lane Agility: 11.51 (seconds)
Shuttle Run: 3.27 (seconds)
Three Quarter Sprint: 3.23 (seconds)
Standing Vertical: 27”
Max Vertical: 33.5” (though articles claim he reached 39” but 33.5” sounds about right)

https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-anthro/?sort=PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1
https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-strength-agility/?sort=PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1

Personally, i think the numbers above are why he dropped all the way to the second round. But, if you’ve got the BBall IQ and good enough length you can makeup for it.


Denzel Valentine Draft Measurements (for fun)

Height (No Shoes): 6’4”
Height (w/Shoes): 6’5.75”
Standing Reach: 8’6.0”
Wingspan: 6’10.75”
Hand Length: 8.50”
Hand Width: 9.75”

Lane Agility: 10.51 (seconds)
Shuttle Run: 3.22 (seconds)
Three Quarter Sprint: 3.46 (seconds)
Standing Vertical: 27”
Max Vertical: 32”

Damn, Denzel had him beat in Lane Agility, & Shuttle Run.

https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-strength-agility/?sort=PLAYER_NAME&dir=-1&SeasonYear=2016-17

One, Ayo is very fast straightline speed and two, Ayo did not have any injury concerns like Denzel when entering. I think another thing is while both were celebrated college players, Ayo to me is a more versatile scorer, better defensive acumen, and better ball-handler. Denzel was a better shooter and they are both elite passers. However, Ayo has great handles in terms of crossovers, mid-range, much more fluid in movements and less robotics, and again is much faster straight line speed.

On separate note, they are not same players but I could see Ayo being a clutch glue player like a Shaun Livingston type when he played for Warriors. Maybe not the post up game and better handles/shooting from 3, but similar impact.

Love the comparison. Both combo guards, but very different (obviously). Denzel honestly had the higher upside, IMO. Dude is a near-elite passer and 3pt shooter, but his injuries impacted both his development and quickness. I will give him credit for developing a nice floater game too. His lost quickness really turned him into a minus defender, but his low BBIQ really killed his chances here.

IMO, Ayo will need to become an average 3pt shooter to stick in the rotation, as his defense and playmaking are pretty decent.

[Michael Jackson]

So I've been convinced forever you need 2/3 of these things to be a good finisher as guard at the rim in the NBA: length, explosion, body control. The most important is actually body control and then probably explosion but if you don't have that length is a good thing as well. Some examples.

Kris Dunn: great length, horrible body control, decent explosion overall trash tier finisher.

Kyrie Irving: mediocre length, mediocre explosion, world class body control overall incredible finisher.

Ayo: great length, below average explosion, average body control and average or so so finisher.

If he can hit his threes and finish at an average NBA clip at the rim for a PG he'll have a very long career. His defense is his "carrying tool" as they say in baseball so he just has to be mediocre on offense to have a role. If he's average offensively he'll be a solid starter. Maybe he can get there, maybe he doesn't but early on it looks like Chicago has found a great 2nd round asset.

Maybe the worst finish ever. I mean PG13 was uglier but he recovered. This literally ruined Dunn.

[dougthonus]

Also, Taj was called Taj "not Dejuan Blair" Gibson after the draft. Ayo might as well be Ayo "not Sharife Cooper" Dosunmu.

I think everyone universally hated the Taj pick.

I think most people liked the Ayo pick. There were people that wanted Cooper more, but even those I know in the Cooper camp didn't think Ayo was a bad pick, they just wanted Cooper more, and they Ayo camp had a huge following too.

Having a large party of people very draft and seeing immediate reactions, I would say Doug McDermott and Taj Gibson were probably the most universally disliked picks the Bulls ever made the moment they were drafted. Gibson went on to be one of their better picks and McDermott actually went on to be a player worthy of his draft slot even if not for us. Ironically we traded McDermott for another good player, but one, whom again, was just not good for us.

[Brolic]

My only contribution at this time is that Stacy’s “Ayo Silver, Away!” is cringe AF, even for him.

Between the Bane voice and Ayo Silver I'm finding myself strongly tempted to watch the opposing teams' broadcasts.

This 100%! Stacy has made watching the Bulls broadcast unbearable for me. I switched to Boston during the last game and probably will do so until further notice.

[Michael Jackson]

Also, Taj was called Taj "not Dejuan Blair" Gibson after the draft. Ayo might as well be Ayo "not Sharife Cooper" Dosunmu.

I think everyone universally hated the Taj pick.

I think most people liked the Ayo pick. There were people that wanted Cooper more, but even those I know in the Cooper camp didn't think Ayo was a bad pick, they just wanted Cooper more, and they Ayo camp had a huge following too.

Having a large party of people very draft and seeing immediate reactions, I would say Doug McDermott and Taj Gibson were probably the most universally disliked picks the Bulls ever made the moment they were drafted. Gibson went on to be one of their better picks and McDermott actually went on to be a player worthy of his draft slot even if not for us. Ironically we traded McDermott for another good player, but one, whom again, was just not good for us.

Doug himself wasn’t a bad pick, trading up for him was though. Had they not given 2 picks for him, he would not have been hated. You realistically could have had him and Harris or Nurkic. Everyone would have been happy and you would have shored up 2 weaknesses. By making that trade the FO placed a target on his back, like he had to be special because we reached and gave up two picks (smells a little like Mitch).

[23-7]

So I've been convinced forever you need 2/3 of these things to be a good finisher as guard at the rim in the NBA: length, explosion, body control. The most important is actually body control and then probably explosion but if you don't have that length is a good thing as well. Some examples.

Kris Dunn: great length, horrible body control, decent explosion overall trash tier finisher.

Kyrie Irving: mediocre length, mediocre explosion, world class body control overall incredible finisher.

Ayo: great length, below average explosion, average body control and average or so so finisher.

If he can hit his threes and finish at an average NBA clip at the rim for a PG he'll have a very long career. His defense is his "carrying tool" as they say in baseball so he just has to be mediocre on offense to have a role. If he's average offensively he'll be a solid starter. Maybe he can get there, maybe he doesn't but early on it looks like Chicago has found a great 2nd round asset.

You also need touch otherwise simone biles has body control and explosiveness.

[samwana]

Ayo is so much fun to watch, it's like the best rookie we have had since Rose probably. He has the swag, he has the IQ , he doesn't go through the motions, he is a light bubble on court. He makes things happen and is perfectly playing within his abilities. Very impressive for a rook. I already look forward to the moment he gets subbed in every game. The kid has game, lots of game.
Go Ayo... And.... he has the perfect name to scream when he has the perfect answer on the court... AYOOOOO!

[superdave]

Interesting physical comp with Valentine. But their play styles are nothing alike. Ayo plays consistently downhill and has shown finishing ability in college (I read that he was near 70%) and on a SSS in the pros. He can play through contact versus settling for free throw line floaters. Ahh the Denzel days lol.

Ayo’s finishing ability, defense and transition game look like the real deal. So proud of this kid!

[DuckIII]

Ayo is so much fun to watch, it's like the best rookie we have had since Rose probably.

From a pick value perspective no doubt. But not as a rookie with all things being equal. Not yet in this small sample size anyway. Taj, WCJ and Lauri all had very solid rookie years. So did Portis.

Problem is most of them played on terrible teams and/or never really improved at all.

Of course Ayo could end up having a better rookie season than those guys (except for Lauri). But I wonder what will happen when Coby comes back? Ayo has to cement himself as a critical bench piece now while he can if he wants to have a rookie year like that. Coby is coming for his minutes.

That said, I have been predicting since this summer that Ayo will end up causing Coby’s departure. And indeed - a lot of people will laugh at this - I have always considered Ayo to be the better prospect, period. Regardless of where they were drafted.

[navdeep_singh]

Ayo is so much fun to watch, it's like the best rookie we have had since Rose probably. He has the swag, he has the IQ , he doesn't go through the motions, he is a light bubble on court. He makes things happen and is perfectly playing within his abilities. Very impressive for a rook. I already look forward to the moment he gets subbed in every game. The kid has game, lots of game.
Go Ayo... And.... he has the perfect name to scream when he has the perfect answer on the court... AYOOOOO!

https://youtu.be/lkbP5OPQhdQ

[madvillian]

So I've been convinced forever you need 2/3 of these things to be a good finisher as guard at the rim in the NBA: length, explosion, body control. The most important is actually body control and then probably explosion but if you don't have that length is a good thing as well. Some examples.

Kris Dunn: great length, horrible body control, decent explosion overall trash tier finisher.

Kyrie Irving: mediocre length, mediocre explosion, world class body control overall incredible finisher.

Ayo: great length, below average explosion, average body control and average or so so finisher.

If he can hit his threes and finish at an average NBA clip at the rim for a PG he'll have a very long career. His defense is his "carrying tool" as they say in baseball so he just has to be mediocre on offense to have a role. If he's average offensively he'll be a solid starter. Maybe he can get there, maybe he doesn't but early on it looks like Chicago has found a great 2nd round asset.

You also need touch otherwise simone biles has body control and explosiveness.

touch is part of body control imo. the english you can put on the ball as it leaves your hands is part of it. anyways, didn't want to derail this ayo thread he showed on that driving layup the other night that he has good body control and touch as he floated it up over the defender it was great to see Dunn was never able to do that stuff.

[dougthonus]

Of course Ayo could end up having a better rookie season than those guys (except for Lauri). But I wonder what will happen when Coby comes back? Ayo has to cement himself as a critical bench piece now while he can if he wants to have a rookie year like that. Coby is coming for his minutes.

That said, I have been predicting since this summer that Ayo will end up causing Coby’s departure. And indeed - a lot of people will laugh at this - I have always considered Ayo to be the better prospect, period. Regardless of where they were drafted.

I think Ayo has knocked TBj out of the rotation. Pat Williams injury has opened up minutes as well.

I think one of Green, DJj, Ayo, or Coby is going to be the loser here, but it wouldn't surprise me if that changes based on the night and matchup.