Billy D or new coach

[MrSparkle]

We gave up a league high 54 points in the paint per game this season. Everyone had a field day against us in the paint. That's not a coaching issue; it's roster construction.

An elimination game is about match-ups. The Heat have two 3P shooters on the roster, both of whom can’t defend well. The rest are very poor at shooting consistently. You don’t treat them the same way you treat 20 other teams. Miami didn’t decide to double Giddey, they trapped him and blocked his pass lanes, and swarmed Coby and made him turn over his possessions since they know he can’t pass well in traffic.

Billy let Huerter get cooked alive by Herro in iso for an entire half. Could’ve attacked him with some real aggressive double-team coverage, but no. We had to let him cook, or let Giddey/Vuc get PnR’d to death by some of the most average offensive starters in the NBA. He tried zone at some point but the wheels were already off the bus.

I’m not making this stuff up. Look at the minute report. Matas was the first guy to the bench. Phillips never really got off the bench. Zach for 5 and Jalen for 3 is just comical.

I don’t know what trend he hoped to buck with Patrick, but he got a 0-2, 14 minute, -9 performance out of the dude, instead of just playing Matas more minutes and considering pairing him more with Phillips and Collins. Our strongest, most mobile front-court defenders.

But where I’ll agree, is Miami put on a clinic targeting Josh on defense. Coby and Vuc too, but that’s a given. However, any contract negotiation with Giddey’s hot-streak should start and end with his exposed defense.

And Miami went on to get swept by Cleveland. At least the Bulls can improve via the draft in a better way than being locked into pick 15. If anything the Bulls draft position should have been higher instead of wasting time on the playin. They should be in the 8 spot not 12.

Yep.

Still supports the fact that Billy was basically out-coached, yet again, in a play-in/off game.

[Stratmaster]

Three things can be true at once.

AK has not built rosters that have any cohesion.
The level of talent has been that of a .500 team.
Billy Donovan is clueless.

To say one needs to be fixed, without addressing the other 2, isn't going to make much difference.

Billy is great at getting player buy-in. The players seem to like him. So what? No one in charge of any endeavor is judged based on how well liked they are by the people they manage. That is icing on the cake. But there is no cake here.

[sco]

Three things can be true at once.

AK has not built rosters that have any cohesion.
The level of talent has been that of a .500 team.
Billy Donovan is clueless.

To say one needs to be fixed, without addressing the other 2, isn't going to make much difference.

Billy is great at getting player buy-in. The players seem to like him. So what? No one in charge of any endeavor is judged based on how well liked they are by the people they manage. That is icing on the cake. But there is no cake here.

Good points. I see the situation slightly differently. When you have a young core and a middling team, guys not tuning-out the coach (especially influential vets) is very important to moving forward. I tell myself that his unwillingness to move on from Vuc starting was with that in mind.

[2weekswithpay]

I don't have strong feelings either way about keeping Billy, but he did play to the players' strengths. Unfortunately, an offense that relies heavily on transition scoring isn't built for high leverage basketball. Given how untalented this team is, they outperformed expectations, although I'd attribute that to a weak conference. People overstate Billy's ineptitude.

[jnrjr79]

I don't have strong feelings either way about keeping Billy, but he did play to the players' strengths. Unfortunately, an offense that relies heavily on transition scoring isn't built for high leverage basketball. Given how untalented this team is, they outperformed expectations, although I'd attribute that to a weak conference. People overstate Billy's ineptitude.

Agreed with this. I don't understand how someone could see Billy completely reinvent the Bulls' style of play this year, and win significantly more games than Vegas projections while trading away the team's best player and think "boy, this coach is a real problem."

I'm not saying he's Popovich, but this team's issues are roster, roster, and roster. Firing Billy without addressing the roster (and, to do that, you probably need to address the front office) doesn't make a lot of sense.

[CROBulls]

Billy D because there is no point of having new coach with same FO and same owner.

[SHO'NUFF]

I'm tired of seeing Billy D get out coached. I'd rather see someone new get out coached. Good riddance.

[dougthonus]

Three things can be true at once.

AK has not built rosters that have any cohesion.
The level of talent has been that of a .500 team.
Billy Donovan is clueless.

Three things could be true, but only two of these thing are true, and the one that isn't is the last one on the list.

To say one needs to be fixed, without addressing the other 2, isn't going to make much difference.

Billy is great at getting player buy-in. The players seem to like him. So what? No one in charge of any endeavor is judged based on how well liked they are by the people they manage. That is icing on the cake. But there is no cake here.

What do you think a good coach would have done with this roster that would have had a meaningfully different result than what we did? I don't look at this team and think "oh my god, they left so many wins on the table" or "wow, with a different coach the player development would have been on a whole different track!".

[SalmonsSuperfan]

New coach but none of those retreads. Find the next Thibs.

[sco]

New coach but none of those retreads. Find the next Thibs.

If the Knicks don't make it past BOS, maybe the last Thibs will be available.

[dougthonus]

New coach but none of those retreads. Find the next Thibs.

Searching for the next Thibs lands you the next Jim Boylen, Jim Boylan, Fred Hoiberg, or Vinny Del Negro 75-80% of the time. If you have someone you know is solid (Donovan is such a guy), your odds of upgrading meaningfully are very low unless your coach has lost the trust of the players on the roster (clearly not true in this case).

[Jcool0]

New coach but none of those retreads. Find the next Thibs.

Searching for the next Thibs lands you the next Jim Boylen, Jim Boylan, Fred Hoiberg, or Vinny Del Negro 75-80% of the time. If you have someone you know is solid (Donovan is such a guy), your odds of upgrading meaningfully are very low unless your coach has lost the trust of the players on the roster (clearly not true in this case).

For this premise to be true Billy would need to be a solid coach. Nothing in his time with the Bulls points to that.

[jnrjr79]

New coach but none of those retreads. Find the next Thibs.

Searching for the next Thibs lands you the next Jim Boylen, Jim Boylan, Fred Hoiberg, or Vinny Del Negro 75-80% of the time. If you have someone you know is solid (Donovan is such a guy), your odds of upgrading meaningfully are very low unless your coach has lost the trust of the players on the roster (clearly not true in this case).

For this premise to be true Billy would need to be a solid coach. Nothing in his time with the Bulls points to that.

How many wins should the Bulls have had this year based on the talent on the roster?

[Jcool0]

Searching for the next Thibs lands you the next Jim Boylen, Jim Boylan, Fred Hoiberg, or Vinny Del Negro 75-80% of the time. If you have someone you know is solid (Donovan is such a guy), your odds of upgrading meaningfully are very low unless your coach has lost the trust of the players on the roster (clearly not true in this case).

For this premise to be true Billy would need to be a solid coach. Nothing in his time with the Bulls points to that.

How many wins should the Bulls have had this year based on the talent on the roster?

33 this year? They got to 39 be because 1/2 the East was in tank mode. Sure he's better then Jim Boylen, but is that really a positive?

[Indomitable]

Billy D had 5 years with Bulls, I think its more than enough, we need to replace him. He got outcoached badly again yesterday vs Spoelstra. Five years is a long run and change of scenery sometimes boosts team a bit. He is kind good guy, solid A to B coach,but he lacks a lot in many areas to be tier 1 NBA coach.

AKME should be gone as well,but thats almost impossible I feel at this stage.

I think now its ideal time to go for new coach,because after a long time,there is plenty of solid options to go after. Malone, Jenkins, Budenholzer and Brown all available. My preference Mike Malone. Of course there is no guarantee any of them would want to come to rebuilding team.

Who would be your choice,if possible?

None of the above amend this for people who desire a new or different coach.

I actually would consider. Adrian Griffin. He was 17 above 500 before he got backstabbed and he highly regarded before that.

[jnrjr79]

For this premise to be true Billy would need to be a solid coach. Nothing in his time with the Bulls points to that.

How many wins should the Bulls have had this year based on the talent on the roster?

33 this year? They got to 39 be because 1/2 the East was in tank mode. Sure he's better then Jim Boylen, but is that really a positive?

I guess I don't get the argument that Billy isn't a solid coach if the Bulls won 6 more games than you think they should have.

[MrSparkle]

The big problem with Billy is he refuses to tank.

You saw Popovich tank pretty blatantly. Had a bit of fun with it. Landed Wemby and changed their course.

Saw Nurse bite his tongue and do it, this season. These are championship coaches.

Both teams are in the Flagg hunt, while already having multiple much better players on their books.

I guess AK wants Billy to win. Establish culture. I don’t know 100% if that’s not PR/optics for the NBA. At some point, the most stubborn bozo must realize that a top-3 pick in a strong draft will make his job easier and more successful than a 12th pick.

Especially when you owe a team anything after top-10. It’s aggravating thinking about how stupid our last 3 seasons have been. They could’ve just ribbed the Spurs the way Portland’s done us. We were in the top-8 guaranteed slot.

[Jcool0]

How many wins should the Bulls have had this year based on the talent on the roster?

33 this year? They got to 39 be because 1/2 the East was in tank mode. Sure he's better then Jim Boylen, but is that really a positive?

I guess I don't get the argument that Billy isn't a solid coach if the Bulls won 6 more games than you think they should have.

They finished the year 10-3. They lost to OKC by 28, Cleveland by 22 and Dallas by 1. There "good" wins were against LA and Miami (who they lost 2 games later in the play in by 19). They beat Denver without Joker. 4 of the last 6 wins were against hard tanking teams (depending on were you think Portland was its 5 of 6).

[League Circles]

The big problem with Billy is he refuses to tank.

You saw Popovich tank pretty blatantly. Had a bit of fun with it. Landed Wemby and changed their course.

Saw Nurse bite his tongue and do it, this season. These are championship coaches.

Both teams are in the Flagg hunt, while already having multiple much better players on their books.

I guess AK wants Billy to win. Establish culture. I don’t know 100% if that’s not PR/optics for the NBA. At some point, the most stubborn bozo must realize that a top-3 pick in a strong draft will make his job easier and more successful than a 12th pick.

Especially when you owe a team anything after top-10. It’s aggravating thinking about how stupid our last 3 seasons have been. They could’ve just ribbed the Spurs the way Portland’s done us. We were in the top-8 guaranteed slot.

Would the most stubborn bozo realize that even the very worst team in the league is unlikely to pick top 3?

[jnrjr79]

The big problem with Billy is he refuses to tank.

You saw Popovich tank pretty blatantly. Had a bit of fun with it. Landed Wemby and changed their course.

Saw Nurse bite his tongue and do it, this season. These are championship coaches.

Both teams are in the Flagg hunt, while already having multiple much better players on their books.

I guess AK wants Billy to win. Establish culture. I don’t know 100% if that’s not PR/optics for the NBA. At some point, the most stubborn bozo must realize that a top-3 pick in a strong draft will make his job easier and more successful than a 12th pick.

Especially when you owe a team anything after top-10. It’s aggravating thinking about how stupid our last 3 seasons have been. They could’ve just ribbed the Spurs the way Portland’s done us. We were in the top-8 guaranteed slot.

This is not a Billy problem. This is an AK problem. I don't know whether he would bristle at being asked to tank, but AK made it clear he wanted to chase a play-in spot. The coach isn't going to tank if the front office is not aligned.