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2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate?

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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#41 » by Chi town » Thu Jun 5, 2025 2:30 am

sco wrote:
Chi town wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
I also like Matas at the 3, but think that many people want him at the 4 because of his shot blocking ability. That could be one reason why people are down on Newell (fit). I haven't watched him that much, so my opinion is limited, but I get a sense that other prospects in our pick range have more upside.


It’s also that Billy only plays him at the 4 and always plays Giddey with two smaller guards.

Yeah, I get the Giddey guarding 3/4's, but we can't let that have us draft someone who is the best pick, even if it impacts who Giddey guards. You just can't do that with a lotto pick. That's what FA is for.


I agree but drafting someone whose ceiling is Giddey like Demin makes no sense.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#42 » by Dan Z » Thu Jun 5, 2025 3:08 am

sco wrote:
Chi town wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
I also like Matas at the 3, but think that many people want him at the 4 because of his shot blocking ability. That could be one reason why people are down on Newell (fit). I haven't watched him that much, so my opinion is limited, but I get a sense that other prospects in our pick range have more upside.


It’s also that Billy only plays him at the 4 and always plays Giddey with two smaller guards.

Yeah, I get the Giddey guarding 3/4's, but we can't let that have us draft someone who is the best pick, even if it impacts who Giddey guards. You just can't do that with a lotto pick. That's what FA is for.


Are the Bulls always going to "hide" Giddey's defense? Is that the plan?
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#43 » by Indomitable » Thu Jun 5, 2025 4:29 am

Dan Z wrote:
sco wrote:
Chi town wrote:
It’s also that Billy only plays him at the 4 and always plays Giddey with two smaller guards.

Yeah, I get the Giddey guarding 3/4's, but we can't let that have us draft someone who is the best pick, even if it impacts who Giddey guards. You just can't do that with a lotto pick. That's what FA is for.


Are the Bulls always going to "hide" Giddey's defense? Is that the plan?

Coby is hidden on defense. Giddey actually had to guard Luka. He had good and bad moments. Still accepted the challenge.

Name one plus offensive Coby has guarded and was not destroyed by.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#44 » by Dan Z » Thu Jun 5, 2025 4:56 am

Indomitable wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
sco wrote:Yeah, I get the Giddey guarding 3/4's, but we can't let that have us draft someone who is the best pick, even if it impacts who Giddey guards. You just can't do that with a lotto pick. That's what FA is for.


Are the Bulls always going to "hide" Giddey's defense? Is that the plan?

Coby is hidden on defense. Giddey actually had to guard Luka. He had good and bad moments. Still accepted the challenge.

Name one plus offensive Coby has guarded and was not destroyed by.


Chi town isn't talking about Coby. He's saying that Giddey was tasked to guard the small forward because he couldn't keep up with the speed of opposing point guards.

I consider that strategically hiding him on defense. It's not a bad idea, but can make it difficult when you put various lineups on the court.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#45 » by Indomitable » Thu Jun 5, 2025 5:11 am

Dan Z wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Are the Bulls always going to "hide" Giddey's defense? Is that the plan?

Coby is hidden on defense. Giddey actually had to guard Luka. He had good and bad moments. Still accepted the challenge.

Name one plus offensive Coby has guarded and was not destroyed by.


Chi town isn't talking about Coby. He's saying that Giddey was tasked to guard the small forward because he couldn't keep up with the speed of opposing point guards.

I consider that strategically hiding him on defense. It's not a bad idea, but can make it difficult when you put various lineups on the court.

Hiding players is putting them in a position where they never guard a good offensive player.

Demarr was hidden.
Coby was hidden.

Giddey was trusted to play good offensive players.

Brunson is hidden.

Giddey has speed limitations but he is easily the best defensive rebounder on the team.

The coaches plan for him to grab the rebound and push the Pace.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#46 » by Dan Z » Thu Jun 5, 2025 6:28 am

Indomitable wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Indomitable wrote:Coby is hidden on defense. Giddey actually had to guard Luka. He had good and bad moments. Still accepted the challenge.

Name one plus offensive Coby has guarded and was not destroyed by.


Chi town isn't talking about Coby. He's saying that Giddey was tasked to guard the small forward because he couldn't keep up with the speed of opposing point guards.

I consider that strategically hiding him on defense. It's not a bad idea, but can make it difficult when you put various lineups on the court.

Hiding players is putting them in a position where they never guard a good offensive player.

Demarr was hidden.
Coby was hidden.

Giddey was trusted to play good offensive players.

Brunson is hidden.

Giddey has speed limitations but he is easily the best defensive rebounder on the team.

The coaches plan for him to grab the rebound and push the Pace.


Coaches have targeted his defense in the past and I've already said why Donovan put him on the small forwards instead of point guards. They didn't put him on Luka thinking that he's do some great defensive job, even though Giddey did a good job.

That could be the way to go moving forward, but it still means they have to set up their lineups accordingly to accommodate him (which is why this conversation started...why Matas wasn't playing at the 3).
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#47 » by MGB8 » Thu Jun 5, 2025 1:10 pm

Dan Z wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Chi town isn't talking about Coby. He's saying that Giddey was tasked to guard the small forward because he couldn't keep up with the speed of opposing point guards.

I consider that strategically hiding him on defense. It's not a bad idea, but can make it difficult when you put various lineups on the court.

Hiding players is putting them in a position where they never guard a good offensive player.

Demarr was hidden.
Coby was hidden.

Giddey was trusted to play good offensive players.

Brunson is hidden.

Giddey has speed limitations but he is easily the best defensive rebounder on the team.

The coaches plan for him to grab the rebound and push the Pace.


Coaches have targeted his defense in the past and I've already said why Donovan put him on the small forwards instead of point guards. They didn't put him on Luka thinking that he's do some great defensive job, even though Giddey did a good job.

That could be the way to go moving forward, but it still means they have to set up their lineups accordingly to accommodate him (which is why this conversation started...why Matas wasn't playing at the 3).


I actually think Giddey is passable - not a player you excessively target - when guarding less quick players that aren’t much bigger than him. Meaning most 3s and 4s. He would probably have a hard time hanging with a Korver’s type at the 3 who is running full speed around double screens, but Korver was kind of unique there, as was the scheme.

Anyway, while I agree that you draft BPA in a vacuum, I also think that if there are players that are ranked similarly, that is where you take fit into account. And I believe that any player that, if they start, would force Giddey (or Matas, for that matter) to be primarily defending 1s and 2s is a non-fit. A tallish 4 who can play small ball 5 for long stretches works - and I would probably even include a Queen in that group, despite his being “earthbound” - basically anyone who has an over 9 foot reach. A wing or guard works. A combo forward or pure 4… not so much.

As for player rankings - I think that this is a very deep draft (but not top heavy or deep at blue chip guys) - we’ll get 30 players out of it who have a 2nd contract, and maybe 20 of those will. Be starters or at least legit rotation. But there are a lot of boom/bust guys, and figuring out the risk profiles of those is going to be key.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#48 » by DropStep » Thu Jun 5, 2025 4:38 pm

sco wrote:
Chi town wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
I also like Matas at the 3, but think that many people want him at the 4 because of his shot blocking ability. That could be one reason why people are down on Newell (fit). I haven't watched him that much, so my opinion is limited, but I get a sense that other prospects in our pick range have more upside.


It’s also that Billy only plays him at the 4 and always plays Giddey with two smaller guards.

Yeah, I get the Giddey guarding 3/4's, but we can't let that have us draft someone who is the best pick, even if it impacts who Giddey guards. You just can't do that with a lotto pick. That's what FA is for.


How the Bulls view this issue will play a huge part in how we draft this year. My view:

Are Matas and Giddey both swing forwards in the future? Yes, especially defensively. Do we think if all goes well they will both be good-to-great starters for us during the incarnation of the Bulls we are trying to build? Yes - and there are only 5 starters. Does that mean we shouldn't be drafting people at 12 who project as forwards on defense? Absolutely not:

- We are still accumulating assets, not consolidating into a contending lineup. Sorting out positions and core guys can happen later.
- Despite the "shrinking timeline," we are not good enough or far enough along in our development to be thinking "we can't draft position X because we already have guy A and guy B who project to sometimes play that position."
- The Bulls want to have multipositional defenders. There will be switching, there will be mixed and matched lineups throughout the game, and, which position someone guards most (especially a Giddey) will change game-to-game based on the opponent's personnel. The positions people will defend is not static, in either the micro or macro view.

I think we are pretty sure what schemes we are going to run at this point. So, we should be looking at BPA, with enormous bonuses for players who fit our scheme. Assuming they believe Giddey is going to be here long term (extension!) with the ball in his hands, guys who complement Giddey's unique combination of strengths and weaknesses also get a decent bonus. There is a much smaller bonus for complementing Matas, and maybe a small bonus for not being a G since we have a lot of those, currently, though the depth chart is likely to change a lot before we are ready to win.

If there is a 3 or 4 they really like who fits our scheme, we shouldn't pass on them just because some combination of Giddey or Matas might be there. We are likely to need flights of people to throw on the floor, like some of the teams who went far in the playoffs this year, especially the finalists. Obviously we'd like to luck into a superstar. But don't pass on the proverbial Mathurin or Nesmith because you have Nembhard. Having a Naz Reid demanding minutes off your bench is one of those good kind of problems, if that's the direction things go, especially as trades happen and contracts start to need extensions.

Also, I think this is the philosophy AK was AwKwardly trying to nod toward with the "9 good guys" statement.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#49 » by kodo » Thu Jun 5, 2025 6:28 pm

Starting guards worse on defense than Giddey by Defensive EPM. There are plenty of teams here who have stilled gotten into the playoffs and done well.
Tyrese Maxey (tied) ~ Austin Reaves ~ Quickley
Fox ~ Jaylen Brown ~ Lillard
Tyler Herro ~ Haliburton ~ Steph Curry
Jalen Green ~ Beal ~ Jamal Murray
Jordan Poole ~ Lamelo ~ Scoot
Sexton ~ McCollum ~ Coby White
Devin Booker ~ Lavine ~ Jalen Brunson
Trae Young

Giddey's defensive EPM impact is roughly the same as Lebron James. Slightly negative but not nearly as damaging as guys like Brunson, Trae, Lavine, Booker, or Coby. But Brunson's team still got to the EC Finals, because you don't try to lock down opponents with your PG position, you do it with your big wings and centers (OG, Mikal, Mitch). And you don't try to orchestrate your offense through your center since it's far more difficult to find another Joker than a decent shotblocker/rim runner.

Bulls have done both, tried to defend with only their PG (Lonzo, Caruso) and orchestrate through our C (Vuc). We took the difficult task of creating a playoff team and then added to the problem by doing it in the most difficult way possible.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#50 » by Ralphb07 » Fri Jun 6, 2025 1:02 am

In order of my preference
Love
Noa
Coward
Kasparas
Jase Richardson

Live With
Drake Powell
Carter Bryant
Thomas Sorber
Maluach

Hate
CMB
Egor Demin
Derik Queen
Liam McNelley
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#51 » by Chi town » Fri Jun 6, 2025 1:35 am

Ralphb07 wrote:In order of my preference
Love
Noa
Coward
Kasparas
Jase Richardson

Live With
Drake Powell
Carter Bryant
Thomas Sorber
Maluach

Hate
CMB
Egor Demin
Derik Queen
Liam McNelley


Good to see an OG like you Ralph!
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#52 » by burlydee » Fri Jun 6, 2025 6:19 pm

Love
1. Coward - not sure he'll pan out, but the archetype of what the Bulls need on the wing.
2. Queen - i prize productivity and don't always worry about fit. Stars come in all shapes and sizes. Roll players need to be NBA caliber everything. This is a roll of the dice but talent is key.
3. Richardson- I've completely done an 180 here. When you're picking in this range, you need to find guys who are surefire rotation players. I think Jase qualifies. I think he's better than McCain, who popped to start the year. Doesn't have crazy athleticism, but could he be effective like Nembhard or better? I think so. I just know the eventual "star" who is most likely to fall, is one with warts that ultimately don't matter. For Jase that is size. But man, he's efficient.

4. Carter Bryant - Love may be too strong. But I think his size and athleticism give him huge upside. Just needs to be developed right.

Live with (honestly outside of Coward, not a huge gulf between this and the love guys)

1. CMB. Im worried about his size and shot. On the high end it's Randle/Draymond mix. On the low end it's Isaac Okoro/nameless Indiana 4 man.

2. Maluach - i don't think he's going to be there. If he is, worth the gamble. Too big, smart, athletic, and a good kid.

3. Maxime Raynaud - I might be pretty excited about this one. I just think people are underestimating the offensive skill set. Probably my top 3 center prospect in this draft with Queen and Maluach.


4. It was really tough finding another guy. Everyone is pretty meh to me and they come with warts. If KJ falls he's interesting, but i think he needs to be a lights out shooter to make it work. Sorber athleticism scares me, but he was productive and could be getting better. Denim has raw tools but nothing else.

I'll take one of the first 7 please.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#53 » by Ebo21 » Sat Jun 7, 2025 1:36 am

Love: Clifford, Essengue, Coward, Sorber
Live: KJ, Flemming, Wolf, Demin
Hate: Queen, CMB, Newell, Jase
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#54 » by BullsSD » Sat Jun 7, 2025 8:56 pm

LOVE:
Fleming
Coward
Queen
Essengue

LIVE WITH:
Newell
Demin
Sorber
Bryant

HATE:
CMB
Jase
McNeeley
Clifford
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#55 » by The Box Office » Sat Jun 7, 2025 9:12 pm

"Hiding" someone on defense? That means that player is absolutely terrible defensively.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#56 » by samwana » Sat Jun 7, 2025 10:04 pm

Love:
Queen (at 12 great risk reward)
Sorber (a high IQ big with great hands and good defense I like that)
Newell (maybe bc of the Noah comparison)

Live with:
Kasparas
Jase Richardson
Coward

Hate:
Essengue
CMB
Demin
Kuro
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#57 » by Kuro » Mon Jun 9, 2025 2:34 pm

LOVE (in order of preference):

KJ - I think NBA pace/space will benefit his game and I'm always a fan of big guards or forwards who can pass. Plus I buy the jumper is long term.

Demin - See above

Essengue - Thought a pairing of he and Matas would be fun for awhile now but that boat might have sailed.

Sorber - If they're going for a center may as well get one that can defend the paint.

LIVE WITH: (in order of preference):

Coward - Feels like a seamless fit, just unsure about his level of competition and he's a tad older.

Newell - A boring prospect to me but I can understand the appeal with his defense and rim running potential. If the shot is real then that changes things.

Bryant - Makes sense as a defensive first guy andtransition demon.

Fleming - Can't dribble or pass a lick but he has good measurements, defensive potential and maybe the shot sticks.

HATE (in order of most to least hated):

CMB - Probably my least favorite archetype of player, short bigs with limited offensive game. Don't see how a lot of his offense translates, I'd be pretty annoyed if he were the pick.

Jase - I very much understand why he is liked but taking a 6'0 guard at this juncture would baffle me.

McNeely - Why?

Queen - While there is surely talent there, the wonky fit on this team overrides my BPA brain.

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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#58 » by kulaz3000 » Tue Jun 10, 2025 4:44 am

I know CMB makes people nervous because he is a tweener, and they come with pretty big risk, especially tweener forwards, however, I just think he is going to be a really good player. I'm going to be nervous if we draft him, as to whether he will be an impact player, but just the same, I'll be nervous if we pass on him, and he becomes the next Draymond Green, a defensive beast and an offensive connector. Those types of players are so rare, but when you get your hands on them, they are invaluable to your franchise.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#59 » by DuckIII » Tue Jun 10, 2025 5:14 am

kulaz3000 wrote:I know CMB makes people nervous because he is a tweener, and they come with pretty big risk, especially tweener forwards, however, I just think he is going to be a really good player. I'm going to be nervous if we draft him, as to whether he will be an impact player, but just the same, I'll be nervous if we pass on him, and he becomes the next Draymond Green, a defensive beast and an offensive connector. Those types of players are so rare, but when you get your hands on them, they are invaluable to your franchise.


I love Kuro’s post, but I agree with you about CMB. I have guys higher on my board, but he is way up there.

I get why Kuro doesn’t like him. I often don’t like this type. It’s just with CMB, I watch the tape and I see it. Or at least I believe I see it. A winner with high level translatable connector skills and defense at a position of need that fits how we would like to play with Giddey and Matas as the presumed “locked in” core for now.

It’s subjective. But I see it. Just like for the same reason with Newell, a guy who on paper makes way more sense, I absolutely do not see it at all. Eye of the beholder.
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Re: 2025 Draft: Love, Live With, or Hate? 

Post#60 » by KuyaCruz » Tue Jun 10, 2025 5:14 am

LOVE
Derrick Queen
Asa Newell
Egor Demin
Noa Essengue

LIVE WITH
Thomas Sorber
Rasheer Fleming
Collin Murray-Boyles
KJ

HATE aka Scarred From PWill type of Picks
Drake Powell
Cedric Coward
Jase Richardson
Nique Clifford

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