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Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers

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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#41 » by DuckIII » Thu Sep 4, 2025 1:46 am

dougthonus wrote:I'd cancel Kawhi's contract, ban him for life, and fine the Clippers 500M dollars, and if Balmer balks at the fine, force him to sell the team.

The violation here is probably the most outrageous cap violation in the history of US sports that I'm aware of.


I don’t know that I feel this strongly about it just yet. I actually do believe it’s possible it’s a little less black and white than this. But it sounds awful, to be sure.

But if we’re discussing penalties for Kawhi and Balmer, how about the Clippers losing a wheelbarrow full of picks? I realize that punishes the fans but it’s a powerful deterrent.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#42 » by CROBulls » Thu Sep 4, 2025 2:13 am

Clippers need to lose their picks for next 5 years, Balmer (if he knew it not his lackeys) needs to be forced to sell and Kawhi's if he knew it (and not just his uncle) contract to be voided and serve year suspension without pay. Otherwise if Kawhi didnt knew, contract be voided and becomes FA.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#43 » by Chi town » Thu Sep 4, 2025 2:43 am

CROBulls wrote:Clippers need to lose their picks for next 5 years, Balmer (if he knew it not his lackeys) needs to be forced to sell and Kawhi's if he knew it (and not just his uncle) contract to be voided and serve year suspension without pay. Otherwise if Kawhi didnt knew, contract be voided and becomes FA.


They all knew it.

Ballmer donated 50M to the fraud non profit.
28M was paid to Kawhi.
His tax penalties would have been 56M at the time if I’m not mistaken.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#44 » by DASMACKDOWN » Thu Sep 4, 2025 11:20 am

DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I'd cancel Kawhi's contract, ban him for life, and fine the Clippers 500M dollars, and if Balmer balks at the fine, force him to sell the team.

The violation here is probably the most outrageous cap violation in the history of US sports that I'm aware of.


I don’t know that I feel this strongly about it just yet. I actually do believe it’s possible it’s a little less black and white than this. But it sounds awful, to be sure.

But if we’re discussing penalties for Kawhi and Balmer, how about the Clippers losing a wheelbarrow full of picks? I realize that punishes the fans but it’s a powerful deterrent.


This is where I am with it as well.

It has to be harsh enough that its a complete deterrence. As I said, talking to players early in free agency is nothing. It should be just frowned apon and a slap on the wrist.

Making corrupt moves that compromises cap rules is another.

You could have situations where a player appears to go to a team on a "sweetheart deal" but in reality its because he is getting a boatload under the table.

You cant have that.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#45 » by dougthonus » Thu Sep 4, 2025 12:02 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:This is where I am with it as well.

It has to be harsh enough that its a complete deterrence. As I said, talking to players early in free agency is nothing. It should be just frowned apon and a slap on the wrist.

Making corrupt moves that compromises cap rules is another.

You could have situations where a player appears to go to a team on a "sweetheart deal" but in reality its because he is getting a boatload under the table.

You cant have that.


Yeah, if I were to say one thing about this, Kawhi got paid a ton of extra money, but it didn't give the Clippers a team building advantage of more cap room / less apron room or anything like that to work with. That maybe stops it from being the absolute worst case scenario which is more what you are pointing out.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#46 » by LateNight » Thu Sep 4, 2025 1:03 pm

I would guess the big issue here is that other teams are almost certainly doing this, albeit in less outrageous ways.

Ballmer’s defense is that “team sponsorship deals” are common and paying the star as part of that is also common. That is probably true / however, it is almost certainly also a way of circumventing cap limits. But it’s an *accepted* way of doing it

The problem is how do you regulate what is acceptable and what is unacceptable sponsorship? A no-show job seems unacceptable - but I would still be suspicious of it if he made $28 million for a Twitter post and a couple photos - but that would be considered, basically, legit
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#47 » by DuckIII » Thu Sep 4, 2025 1:51 pm

LateNight wrote:I would guess the big issue here is that other teams are almost certainly doing this, albeit in less outrageous ways.

Ballmer’s defense is that “team sponsorship deals” are common and paying the star as part of that is also common. That is probably true / however, it is almost certainly also a way of circumventing cap limits. But it’s an *accepted* way of doing it

The problem is how do you regulate what is acceptable and what is unacceptable sponsorship? A no-show job seems unacceptable - but I would still be suspicious of it if he made $28 million for a Twitter post and a couple photos - but that would be considered, basically, legit


Excellent point. I’m sure a room full of people can come up with something. Such as requiring team-related sponsorships are paid on a per event basis rather than as an annual salary. Caps on those fees, specific reporting and disclosure requirements, etc.

You could never make it perfect. Hell they could just hand out paper bags of cash. But you could tighten it.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#48 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Sep 4, 2025 1:56 pm

DuckIII wrote:
LateNight wrote:I would guess the big issue here is that other teams are almost certainly doing this, albeit in less outrageous ways.

Ballmer’s defense is that “team sponsorship deals” are common and paying the star as part of that is also common. That is probably true / however, it is almost certainly also a way of circumventing cap limits. But it’s an *accepted* way of doing it

The problem is how do you regulate what is acceptable and what is unacceptable sponsorship? A no-show job seems unacceptable - but I would still be suspicious of it if he made $28 million for a Twitter post and a couple photos - but that would be considered, basically, legit


Excellent point. I’m sure a room full of people can come up with something. Such as requiring team-related sponsorships are paid on a per event basis rather than as an annual salary. Caps on those fees, specific reporting and disclosure requirements, etc.

You could never make it perfect. Hell they could just hand out paper bags of cash. But you could tighten it.


Are there other examples of an NBA team owner having a financial interest in an otherwise unrelated company and that company paying a player to be a sponsor?

For instance, Dan Gilbert owns Rocket Mortgage, but you didn't see LeBron out there doing ads for the company when he was a Cav.

Some people in this thread keep suggesting that this sort of thing happens all the time, but I cannot think of an example.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#49 » by LateNight » Thu Sep 4, 2025 2:13 pm

jnrjr79 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
LateNight wrote:I would guess the big issue here is that other teams are almost certainly doing this, albeit in less outrageous ways.

Ballmer’s defense is that “team sponsorship deals” are common and paying the star as part of that is also common. That is probably true / however, it is almost certainly also a way of circumventing cap limits. But it’s an *accepted* way of doing it

The problem is how do you regulate what is acceptable and what is unacceptable sponsorship? A no-show job seems unacceptable - but I would still be suspicious of it if he made $28 million for a Twitter post and a couple photos - but that would be considered, basically, legit


Excellent point. I’m sure a room full of people can come up with something. Such as requiring team-related sponsorships are paid on a per event basis rather than as an annual salary. Caps on those fees, specific reporting and disclosure requirements, etc.

You could never make it perfect. Hell they could just hand out paper bags of cash. But you could tighten it.


Are there other examples of an NBA team owner having a financial interest in an otherwise unrelated company and that company paying a player to be a sponsor?

For instance, Dan Gilbert owns Rocket Mortgage, but you didn't see LeBron out there doing ads for the company when he was a Cav.

Some people in this thread keep suggesting that this sort of thing happens all the time, but I cannot think of an example.


This is a great point because I’ve seen multiple outlets and people saying these deals are commonplace but have yet to hear a good example of it elsewhere.

It’s easy to find team sponsors where the players get appearance fees for events / do photo shoots, but nothing that seems quite as open ended. Of course, I don’t have access to their contracts and financial disclosures. The people saying these are common tend to be more clued in than I am
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#50 » by DuckIII » Thu Sep 4, 2025 2:21 pm

jnrjr79 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
LateNight wrote:I would guess the big issue here is that other teams are almost certainly doing this, albeit in less outrageous ways.

Ballmer’s defense is that “team sponsorship deals” are common and paying the star as part of that is also common. That is probably true / however, it is almost certainly also a way of circumventing cap limits. But it’s an *accepted* way of doing it

The problem is how do you regulate what is acceptable and what is unacceptable sponsorship? A no-show job seems unacceptable - but I would still be suspicious of it if he made $28 million for a Twitter post and a couple photos - but that would be considered, basically, legit


Excellent point. I’m sure a room full of people can come up with something. Such as requiring team-related sponsorships are paid on a per event basis rather than as an annual salary. Caps on those fees, specific reporting and disclosure requirements, etc.

You could never make it perfect. Hell they could just hand out paper bags of cash. But you could tighten it.


Are there other examples of an NBA team owner having a financial interest in an otherwise unrelated company and that company paying a player to be a sponsor?

For instance, Dan Gilbert owns Rocket Mortgage, but you didn't see LeBron out there doing ads for the company when he was a Cav.

Some people in this thread keep suggesting that this sort of thing happens all the time, but I cannot think of an example.


I’m not being specific and I’m referring only to team-related sponsorships. Like doing ads like Bulls players do for the team’s corporate partners and sponsors.

I agree the Kawhi situation appears to be very different and a potential “earthquake” moment. Even potentially beyond basketball.

The point is that there is so much potential for abuse that there should be tight, well defined parameters and I was just noodling through what some could look like.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#51 » by sco » Thu Sep 4, 2025 3:03 pm

DuckIII wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Excellent point. I’m sure a room full of people can come up with something. Such as requiring team-related sponsorships are paid on a per event basis rather than as an annual salary. Caps on those fees, specific reporting and disclosure requirements, etc.

You could never make it perfect. Hell they could just hand out paper bags of cash. But you could tighten it.


Are there other examples of an NBA team owner having a financial interest in an otherwise unrelated company and that company paying a player to be a sponsor?

For instance, Dan Gilbert owns Rocket Mortgage, but you didn't see LeBron out there doing ads for the company when he was a Cav.

Some people in this thread keep suggesting that this sort of thing happens all the time, but I cannot think of an example.


I’m not being specific and I’m referring only to team-related sponsorships. Like doing ads like Bulls players do for the team’s corporate partners and sponsors.

I agree the Kawhi situation appears to be very different and a potential “earthquake” moment. Even potentially beyond basketball.

The point is that there is so much potential for abuse that there should be tight, well defined parameters and I was just noodling through what some could look like.

IDK, I fully expect the Clipps to face a few million fine and lose a first. There will be some additional NBA guidelines that come out to clarify things further. Then I expect the issue to be forgotten.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#52 » by DuckIII » Thu Sep 4, 2025 3:08 pm

sco wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:
Are there other examples of an NBA team owner having a financial interest in an otherwise unrelated company and that company paying a player to be a sponsor?

For instance, Dan Gilbert owns Rocket Mortgage, but you didn't see LeBron out there doing ads for the company when he was a Cav.

Some people in this thread keep suggesting that this sort of thing happens all the time, but I cannot think of an example.


I’m not being specific and I’m referring only to team-related sponsorships. Like doing ads like Bulls players do for the team’s corporate partners and sponsors.

I agree the Kawhi situation appears to be very different and a potential “earthquake” moment. Even potentially beyond basketball.

The point is that there is so much potential for abuse that there should be tight, well defined parameters and I was just noodling through what some could look like.

IDK, I fully expect the Clipps to face a few million fine and lose a first. There will be some additional NBA guidelines that come out to clarify things further. Then I expect the issue to be forgotten.


If in fact it is as cut and dry as reported - he was gifted $30 million from a company Ballmer had a stake in for doing nothing in return - it definitely will not simply be forgotten. It will be huge.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#53 » by patryk7754 » Thu Sep 4, 2025 3:10 pm

drosestruts wrote:If the NBA voids Kawhi's contract and he becomes a free agent ala Joe Smiht in 2000. Where he signs could have huge implications on the season.

My money is on the Nuggets or Mavs
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#54 » by sco » Thu Sep 4, 2025 3:11 pm

patryk7754 wrote:
drosestruts wrote:If the NBA voids Kawhi's contract and he becomes a free agent ala Joe Smiht in 2000. Where he signs could have huge implications on the season.

My money is on the Nuggets or Mavs

I have a hard time seeing Kawhi being effectively rewarded when he should be suspended.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#55 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Sep 4, 2025 3:31 pm

sco wrote:
patryk7754 wrote:
drosestruts wrote:If the NBA voids Kawhi's contract and he becomes a free agent ala Joe Smiht in 2000. Where he signs could have huge implications on the season.

My money is on the Nuggets or Mavs

I have a hard time seeing Kawhi being effectively rewarded when he should be suspended.


I'm pretty sure ripping up his $50M/year contract, forcing him to lose tens of millions of dollars, and move away from Los Angeles would be viewed by Kawhi as a significant punishment, not a reward.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#56 » by kodo » Thu Sep 4, 2025 5:23 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I'd cancel Kawhi's contract, ban him for life, and fine the Clippers 500M dollars, and if Balmer balks at the fine, force him to sell the team.

The violation here is probably the most outrageous cap violation in the history of US sports that I'm aware of.


I don’t know that I feel this strongly about it just yet. I actually do believe it’s possible it’s a little less black and white than this. But it sounds awful, to be sure.

But if we’re discussing penalties for Kawhi and Balmer, how about the Clippers losing a wheelbarrow full of picks? I realize that punishes the fans but it’s a powerful deterrent.


This is where I am with it as well.

It has to be harsh enough that its a complete deterrence. As I said, talking to players early in free agency is nothing. It should be just frowned apon and a slap on the wrist.

Making corrupt moves that compromises cap rules is another.

You could have situations where a player appears to go to a team on a "sweetheart deal" but in reality its because he is getting a boatload under the table.

You cant have that.


But Kawhi didn't sign for less? He got the full max. From what I'm reading the main complaint is that this caused him to join the Clippers vs any other team, like staying with Toronto.

The NBA would need to stop all sponsorship deals with that kind of language, including those from Nike/Adidas that pay based on how large of a city you play for. They'd also have to factor in investment opportunities such as Durant's investment into tech startups he got through the GS org and Melo's investments into NY businesses he got through Knicks contacts.

It's going to be a nightmare to enforce, which is why they've always looked the other way on this topic.

I mean when Wemby becomes a free agent, and a team sponsor gives him the exact same contract ($28M endorsement deal) and that company takes the minimal extra step of including a Wemby pic in their tweets, is this all legal now?
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#57 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Sep 4, 2025 5:30 pm

kodo wrote:
DASMACKDOWN wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
I don’t know that I feel this strongly about it just yet. I actually do believe it’s possible it’s a little less black and white than this. But it sounds awful, to be sure.

But if we’re discussing penalties for Kawhi and Balmer, how about the Clippers losing a wheelbarrow full of picks? I realize that punishes the fans but it’s a powerful deterrent.


This is where I am with it as well.

It has to be harsh enough that its a complete deterrence. As I said, talking to players early in free agency is nothing. It should be just frowned apon and a slap on the wrist.

Making corrupt moves that compromises cap rules is another.

You could have situations where a player appears to go to a team on a "sweetheart deal" but in reality its because he is getting a boatload under the table.

You cant have that.


But Kawhi didn't sign for less? He got the full max. From what I'm reading the main complaint is that this caused him to join the Clippers vs any other team, like staying with Toronto.

The NBA would need to stop all sponsorship deals with that kind of language, including those from Nike/Adidas that pay based on how large of a city you play for.


No, they wouldn't. That is not the same (or even similar). When Nike pays you, Nike pays you. It has no CBA implications. When your team is funneling you off-the-books cash, that is not analogous.

It has long been that players' off-the-court earning potential can be different depending what market you're in (media exposure, income tax rates, whatever). The NBA does not try to correct for that factor.

They'd also have to factor in investment opportunities such as Durant's investment into tech startups he got through the GS org and Melo's investments into NY businesses he got through Knicks contacts.


These analogies also do not fly. Teams can certainly help connect players with sponsorships, investment opportunities, etc. What they can't do is pay the player themselves beyond that player's contract.

It's going to be a nightmare to enforce, which is why they've always looked the other way on this topic.


Is there even a single example of the NBA looking the other way? I am not aware of one. The only time we know something like this occurred, 25 years ago with Joe Smith, the NBA did the very opposite of looking the other way.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#58 » by drosestruts » Thu Sep 4, 2025 5:57 pm

One important reminder - this is not a court of law.

I've seen people here and outside the board mention it will be difficult to directly tie the money Ballmer invested in the company to the money Kawhi received, but that's not true. Circumstantial evidence is enough for the NBA to impose fines, suspensions, etc.
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#59 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Sep 4, 2025 6:30 pm

Some interesting tidbits from the CBA on circumvention, starting on page 339:

https://imgix.cosmicjs.com/25da5eb0-15eb-11ee-b5b3-fbd321202bdf-Final-2023-NBA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement-6-28-23.pdf

It shall constitute a violation of Section 1(a) above for a Team (or
Team Affiliate) to enter into an agreement or understanding with any
sponsor or business partner or third party under which such sponsor,
business partner, or third party pays or agrees to pay compensation for
basketball services (even if such compensation is ostensibly designated as
being for non-basketball services) to a player under Contract to the Team.
Such an agreement with a sponsor or business partner or third party may be
inferred where: (i) such compensation from the sponsor or business partner
or third party is substantially in excess of the fair market value of any services
to be rendered by the player for such sponsor or business partner or third
party; and (ii) the Compensation in the Player Contract between the player
and the Team is substantially below the fair market value of such Contract.


Section 2. No Unauthorized Agreements.
(a) At no time shall there be any agreements or transactions of any kind
(whether disclosed or undisclosed to the NBA), express or implied, oral or
written, or promises, undertakings, representations, commitments,
inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind (whether
disclosed or undisclosed to the NBA), between a player (or any person or
entity controlled by, related to, or acting with authority on behalf of, such
player) and any Team (or Team Affiliate):

***

(ii) except as permitted by this Agreement or as set forth in a
Uniform Player Contract (provided that the Team has not
intentionally delayed submitting such Uniform Player
Contract for approval by the NBA), involving compensation
or consideration of any kind or anything else of value, to be
paid, furnished, or made available by, to, or for the benefit
of the player, or any person or entity controlled by, related
to, or acting with authority on behalf of the player; or
(iii) except as permitted by this Agreement, involving an
investment or business opportunity to be furnished or made
available by, to, or for the benefit of the player, or any person
or entity controlled by, related to, or acting with authority on
behalf of the player.


(d) A violation of Section 2(a) or 2(b) above may be proven by direct or
circumstantial evidence, including, but not limited to, evidence that a Player
Contract or any term or provision thereof cannot rationally be explained in
the absence of conduct violative of Section 2(a) or 2(b).


Section 3. Penalties.
(a) Upon a finding of a violation of Section 1 above by the System
Arbitrator, but only following the conclusion of any appeal to the Appeals
Panel, the Commissioner shall be authorized to:
(i) impose a fine of up to $4,500,000 (fifty percent (50%) of
which shall be payable to the NBA, and fifty percent (50%)
of which shall be payable to the NBPA-Selected Charitable
Organization (as defined in Article VI, Section 6(a))) on any
342 Article XIII
Team found to have committed such violation for the first
time;
(ii) impose a fine of up to $5,500,000 (fifty percent (50%) of
which shall be payable to the NBA, and fifty percent (50%)
of which shall be payable to the NBPA-Selected Charitable
Organization) on any Team found to have committed such
violation for at least the second time;
(iii) direct the forfeiture of one First Round Draft Pick;
(iv) void any Player Contract, or any Renegotiation, Extension,
or amendment of a Player Contract, between any player and
any Team when both the player (or any person or entity
acting with authority on behalf of such player) and the Team
(or Team Affiliate) are found to have committed such
violation; and/or
(v) void any other transaction or agreement found to have
violated Section 1 above.
(b) Upon a finding of a violation of Section 2 above by the System
Arbitrator, but only following the conclusion of any appeal to the Appeals
Panel, the Commissioner shall be authorized to:
(i) impose a fine of up to $7,500,000 on any Team found to
have committed such violation (fifty percent (50%) of which
shall be payable to the NBA, and fifty percent (50%) of
which shall be payable to the NBPA-Selected Charitable
Organization);
(ii) direct the forfeiture of draft picks;
(iii) when both the player (or any person or entity acting with
authority on behalf of such player) and the Team (or Team
Affiliate) are found to have committed such violation,
(A) void any Player Contract, or any Renegotiation,
Extension, or amendment of a Player Contract, between
such player and such Team, (B) impose a fine of up to
$350,000, on any player (fifty percent (50%) of which shall
be payable to the NBA, and fifty percent (50%) of which
Article XIII 343
shall be payable to the NBPA-Selected Charitable
Organization), and/or (C) prohibit any future Player
Contract, or any Renegotiation, Extension, or amendment
of a Player Contract, between such player and such Team;
(iv) suspend for up to one (1) year any Team personnel found to
have willfully engaged in such violation; and/or
(v) void any transaction or agreement found to have violated
Section 2 above and direct the disgorgement by the player of
anything of value received in connection with such
transaction or agreement (except Compensation received for
services already performed pursuant to a Player Contract),
unless the player establishes by a preponderance of the
evidence that he was unaware of the violation.


So, a couple of quick takeaways: you get in hot water when you're having third parties pay players because you want them to be paid for playing basketball for you, rather than that third party legitimately paying a player for services. You can infer the purpose by looking at whether the player was paid fair market value for the thing they were doing (in this case, a sponsorship). This will be exceedingly easy to prove in this case, I would think, given Kawhi was to be paid $28 million and literally never did anything. I'd think the only way around that would be if the explanation was the company did legitimately want him to did endorsements, but went bankrupt/fell apart before seeing it through. The thing here, as I understand it, would not support that explanation.

The penalties for Section 1 violations are less severe than Section 2. It seems clear to me that this involves potential Section 1 violations. For Section 2, I wonder if subpart (ii) has been triggered. That would open up the potential forfeiture of multiple picks.

There's more at the link - I felt like I was already quoting a lot of material and didn't want the post to be unreadable. (I was too lazy, though, to fix the formatting after pasting).
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Re: Semi-OT: Pablo Torre Investigation into Kawhie/Clippers 

Post#60 » by DuckIII » Thu Sep 4, 2025 7:20 pm

drosestruts wrote:One important reminder - this is not a court of law.

I've seen people here and outside the board mention it will be difficult to directly tie the money Ballmer invested in the company to the money Kawhi received, but that's not true. Circumstantial evidence is enough for the NBA to impose fines, suspensions, etc.


FYI pretty much anything can be proven by circumstantial evidence in a court of law as well.
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