Rebuild the Bulls all over again, the 2010/11 plan

[Drellberg]

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I really just want to see how January plays out. This is an easy stretch in the schedule, and affords an opportunity for the team to regain some confidence. I could see the Bulls winning 4 or 5 of their next 6 and as many as 9 or 10 of their next 13 games. By month's end they could be a 7th or 8th seed and approaching 0.500.

I like it that Paxson is patient and manages his assets for the long haul. Where he's erred, it's been in being too quick to adjust the roster (e.g., Wallace for Chandler) rather than too slow. Would the bulls really be any better if they'd pulled the trigger on Gasol?

[coldfish]

I've given it some more thought as well, and I'm also opposed to it.

I just thought about it for whatever reason and was throwing it against the wall.

The idea that coldfish and redlineVQ have of making out a plan where we structure our contracts to allow maximum cap space in that year, and then possibly just ship off Nocioni and play a S&T angle makes a lot more sense.

I do think there is a way for the Bulls to have their cake and eat it too. The key would be trading Nocioni for a big guard who expires the same time Wallace does.

Mike Miller does.

So, if the Bulls traded, say Duhon, Sefolosha and Nocioni for Miller + filler you would create two teams:

From now until 2010
Kirk / Ben
Miller / Ben
Deng / Miller
Smith / Tyrus
Wallace / Noah / Gray

2010 +
Kirk / BenG
Wade / BenG
Deng / Tyrus
Tyrus
Noah

Its so painful to think about that it hurts. Its so simple.

[whodey]

Great plan there coldfish, also, i believe that makes us a much better team. This is the deal i have really been pushing for not even thinking about when wallace's and miller's contract expires. But that's just icing on the cake.

This would open up minutes for thomas at PF, and it would really help our starting linuep. I also like mike miller a lot more than andres nocioni as a player.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

I've given it some more thought as well, and I'm also opposed to it.

I just thought about it for whatever reason and was throwing it against the wall.

The idea that coldfish and redlineVQ have of making out a plan where we structure our contracts to allow maximum cap space in that year, and then possibly just ship off Nocioni and play a S&T angle makes a lot more sense.

I do think there is a way for the Bulls to have their cake and eat it too. The key would be trading Nocioni for a big guard who expires the same time Wallace does.

Mike Miller does.

So, if the Bulls traded, say Duhon, Sefolosha and Nocioni for Miller + filler you would create two teams:

From now until 2010
Kirk / Ben
Miller / Ben
Deng / Miller
Smith / Tyrus
Wallace / Noah / Gray

2010 +
Kirk / BenG
Wade / BenG
Deng / Tyrus
Tyrus
Noah

Its so painful to think about that it hurts. Its so simple.

But why does Memphis do this? They have three pg's better than Duhon (maybe two, if Stoudamire lobbies his way out of town). So that leaves them with a longer contract in Nocioni who plays a position where they're all set, and Sefalosha, who hasn't proven he can be valuable to anybody. I don't see the appeal from the Grizzlies' perspective.

[coldfish]

-= original quote snipped =-



But why does Memphis do this? They have three pg's better than Duhon (maybe two, if Stoudamire lobbies his way out of town). So that leaves them with a longer contract in Nocioni who plays a position where they're all set, and Sefalosha, who hasn't proven he can be valuable to anybody. I don't see the appeal from the Grizzlies' perspective.

A bunch of Grizzlies fans signed up for it when Cliff brought it up. They see Gay as a 2 and Nocioni as a 3/4. Memphis also was hot for Nocioni during free agency, so they definitely don't see the same redundancy that you do.

[fudgie]

First off, Bosh is extremely unlikely to move because he likes Toronto and they have a good young team. I used to think Wade would be open to a move to Chicago because it's his hometown and the Heat would probably suck by then but they're so bad this season that they could very well land a stud in this draft. Wade + stud = scary. He would want to stay in Miami if this is the case.

That only leaves LeBron. I think he's almost guaranteed to leave Cleveland when his contract is up. We'd be one of five teams in the running for him (Bulls, Lakers, Clippers, Knicks, Nets) because of the bonus in his Nike contract for playing in a big market.

I like coldfish's idea. We could also get a player that's expiring the season after LeBron opts out and try to lure Cleveland into a sign and trade. Something like Lu + expiring would be hard for them to say no to if LeBron was forcing his way out of town. Just an idea.

[Shill]

Again, I'm glad doug put this out there, and I like coldfish's redaction.


This makes too much sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if Paxson already has something like this in the crosshairs.

The genius of it is we don't have to tank because we'll be able to field a competitive team with Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas, Noah, etc...

The key to this will be moving Nocioni, and either Hinrich or Gordon by Summer '10. This shouldn't be too much of a problem. There are always expiring contracts floating around. We might take a hit PR-wise, but intelligent fans will know why we're doing it, and we'll still have a solid nucleus that can hover around playoff contention.

With two more years of development, I think a frontline of Deng, Thomas, and Noah would be attractive to Wade or LeBron. I think we have a better shot at LeBron because the Heat might be able to land a star in the '08 draft.


LOL the only hang-up is actually getting LeBron to sign. Cleveland will have a ton of money in Summer '10. What if they could persuade DWade to team up with LeBron? That would be a nightmare. I think that is a serious, serious longshot, though.

[Rerisen]

With two more years of development, I think a frontline of Deng, Thomas, and Noah would be attractive to Wade or LeBron. I think we have a better shot at LeBron because the Heat might be able to land a star in the '08 draft.

LOL the only hang-up is actually getting LeBron to sign. Cleveland will have a ton of money in Summer '10. What if they could persuade DWade to team up with LeBron? That would be a nightmare. I think that is a serious, serious longshot, though.

How do you see LeBron and Deng coexisting anyway? I don't think you want LeBron at SG having to chase around smaller quicker players for 40 minutes. And you don't want Deng at SG because his operating area is the same as LeBron's on offense. And you can't kick out shots to Deng behind the arc, because he is not a 3pt shooter. Better to keep BG in that scenario.

[Shill]

-= original quote snipped =-



How do you see LeBron and Deng coexisting anyway? I don't think you want LeBron at SG having to chase around smaller quicker players for 40 minutes. And you don't want Deng at SG because his operating area is the same as LeBron's on offense. And you can't kick out shots to Deng behind the arc, because he is not a 3pt shooter. Better to keep BG in that scenario.

LeBron is better suited for the 3, but I'm not too worried about him guarding SGs.

I'd prefer to keep Gordon to run the point w/ LeBron entrusted primarily with the ball handling duties. I just said Gordon or Hinrich as a bottom-line initiative, but I'd prefer to keep Gordon because his flaws are masked playing alongside LeBron.

I think having a 1-2-3 of Gordon/Hinrich, LeBron, and Deng is better than Hinrich, Gordon, and LeBron.

I'm simply not a fan of the undersized backcourt.

If Thabo can become a functional jump shooter, I'd consider him as a long-term option at the 2. That way, we'd move Hinrich and Deng.


Wade is the more natural fit at the two, although I don't think he has a defensive prowess that would make him THAT more adept at guarding SGs. They're both great players, but I'm a little more worried about the wear and tear on Wade. At 25 (26 in couple weeks), he's already been beat up a lot. I don't worry about LeBron too much because he's a freaking specimen. He's also almost 3 full years younger.

One quick thing about Deng: he said he wants to put the 3-point shot back in his game. One summer and I bet he's a serviceable spot-up three point shooter (over 30%).

Ideally, I'd trade Deng for a SG of his caliber, and sign LeBron. Perhaps Iggy?

C Noah
PF Thomas
SF LeBron
SG Iguodala
PG Gordon

Sick, sick lineup. That's 5 guys who can all handle the ball.

[Rerisen]

Ideally, I'd trade Deng for a SG of his caliber, and sign LeBron. Perhaps Iggy?

C Noah
PF Thomas
SF LeBron
SG Iguodala
PG Gordon

Excellent!

[McBulls]

Gosh Doug, I've been out of it for a few weeks, but you seem to be losing it.
Trade Deng for picks (only one of which is guaranteed to be any good)?

Deng is good (in more ways than one) and young. You build the franchise around him, but don't trade him for anyone -- particularly not picks.

Deng and James would be an interesting combo on the floor. Think about it. One is a great outside shooter and the other is a great penetrator and distributor. It doesn't take much coaching to find a way for them to play together.

[McBulls]

I've given it some more thought as well, and I'm also opposed to it.

I just thought about it for whatever reason and was throwing it against the wall.

The idea that coldfish and redlineVQ have of making out a plan where we structure our contracts to allow maximum cap space in that year, and then possibly just ship off Nocioni and play a S&T angle makes a lot more sense.

Oops. This is what happens when you post before reading the entire thread.

[dougthonus]

Gosh Doug, I've been out of it for a few weeks, but you seem to be losing it.
Trade Deng for picks (only one of which is guaranteed to be any good)?

Deng is good (in more ways than one) and young. You build the franchise around him, but don't trade him for anyone -- particularly not picks.

If the whole plan worked as I outlined would you really be upset though?

Anyway as you saw later, I'm definitely more a fan of Coldfish's adjustments to my thought. We don't need to make any major sacrifices but can still pursue LeBron.

2010/11 could be a year of a major shake up in the NBA. Being ready to be opportunistic that year will be important. We should have a really great cast for a superstar to want to drop into. If we could manage our cap to have only Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, and guys on rookie contracts on the cap that year (Tyrus and Thabo being RFAs) it would be an amazing opportunity to reshape the franchise.

[eierluke]

We can't give up any valuable deals just for some hope at a star considering us in 2010.

But we should position ourself into a player for 2010 by

deciding
1) to resign Gray to what amount/lenght
2) when to move Noccioni for a contract ending in 2010.
3) not to take on any other multi year deals inbetween (except maybe matching contract offers for Deng and Gordon)

[dougthonus]

We can't give up any valuable deals just for some hope at a star considering us in 2010.

Though I agree with the rest of your post as I hadn't considered the best way to maneuver around the cap initially, I wanted to discuss this on a purely philosophical level:

I think that really depends. If we aren't really in a position to win a title and have no way to get there, then I think you can give up valuable deals to attempt to pursue a young superstar just entering their prime.

If it works, you have given yourself an outstanding chance at a title. If it doesn't work, you've given up being a 2nd round exit playoff team and go back to being a borderline playoff team. I think the reward outweighs the risk in this case, especially when you have 3 targets to choose from rather than one.

[MGB8]

Sign me up for the Coldfish plan, although I'd try to keep Thabo because I do think that, like John Salmons - he can develop, just late.

to cement the move, I'd also look to move Kirk, next season, for a similar "picks + lesser player and/or expiring."

[dougthonus]

As a side note, this reminds me of the Shaq plan that LA had. They consciously made sure their stars aligned the year Shaq was a FA, and they planned it more than 1 year in advance. That plan ultimately got them 3 titles. If Shad had stayed in Orlando, LA would have been screwed.

[eierluke]

I'd agree in that 2010 should be in the middle of our long term focus, but let's not forget the lessions we (should) have learned out of the year 2000, the last summer with many valuable unrestricted free agents:

1) free agents do have limited phantasie, they'd prefer to join a winning team with above average vets over a losing team with many upcoming lotto picks.

2) In the end it works in a certain way: the free agent proclaims that he is going to leave his current team and that he is going to sign with another team that has cap space. If he does play this game seriously his current team says: OK we are losing him let's take what they have in a sign and deal. This scenario brings the leaving free agent some extra millons.


So we need some cap space but we need some chips to throw in either. No reason not to resign SF Deng just to create space now for 2010 free agent SF James.

[coldfish]

Another note, if Tyrus gets good enough to justify a long term deal starting at $10M, the team may not need a superstar.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

As a side note, this reminds me of the Shaq plan that LA had. They consciously made sure their stars aligned the year Shaq was a FA, and they planned it more than 1 year in advance. That plan ultimately got them 3 titles. If Shad had stayed in Orlando, LA would have been screwed.

Just a thought, Doug - didn't LA's 'Shaq' plan involve Jerry West breaking league rules? Specifically the one that says no team can talk to any player on a different team about an FA contract while that player is still under contract with his team? I'm pretty sure West was talking to O'Neal for most of the 95-96 season(Shaq's last in Orlando) trying to lure him to LA, and that that kind of thing, at least then(maybe still), was against the rules.

I'm just saying, if that's true, than a big part of 'consciously making sure their stars align' could have involved illegitimate means.