How would a Tyrus Thomas trade affect YOU?

[Cliff Levingston]

It obviously depends on what we would get for Tyrus in a trade that would determine whether or not Cliff Levingston would react favorably or unfavorably. However, since we have a lot of stock into him (and Noah), anything less than a bona fide all-star either in or close to his prime would be a bad trade.

[JeffJordan]

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Those are pretty good comparisons. So are Josh Smith, Gerald Wallace, Amare, Mcdyess, Kemp, Balkman, Blatche, Garnett, Steven Hunter, Sean Williams, Tyson Chandler, Amir Johnson, Solomon Jones, Rashard Lewis, Jason Maxiell, Theo Ratliff, Chris Wilcox, and I'm probably missing more.

All of these guys came into the league with no skills, all arms and legs, all on pogo sticks, and some took off right away, like Amare, some took a couple years, like Gerald Wallace, some took even longer, like Outlaw, and some never did., like Hunter.

Whatever you think of the issue, don't pretend to have any knowledge about what sort of player Tyrus will become. We're all just guessing here.

Half of these guys you mentioned: Smith, Wallace, Amare, Mcdyess, Kemp, Balkman, KG, Williams and Maxiell ALL had skills coming into the NBA. All of these players had skills that they could bring to their teams without hurting the team. Comparing Tyrus to Kemp or Amare are the worst ones-- because both players were/are absolute beasts in the post. Kemp was the one player besides Sabonis that could do a pretty good job at guarding Shaq in his prime. TT had zero skills coming into the league much like Outlaw or Swift. Paxson blew the pick-- sure it is really early to say that but no way can I see TT becoming nearly as good as LMA, Roy or Gay.

[BULLHITTER]

balkman had skills? he must've left them in college......kemp came out of high school, no? he must've had some hellacious HS coaching.....which skills did the one year college attendee wilcox have? the same turnaround move for a dunk that he's using so well now?. josh smith, another preps to pro had no skills outside of jumping, and outside of having the five year nba learning curve, doesn't possess that many more. williams, maxiel, et al; i'll be disappointed if thomas can't eclipse those talents. further, while the comparisons to swift are obvious, he's had plenty of time to prove naysayers wrong; thomas doesn't deserve the same patience? i guess the express train to the finals isn't fast enough for some folk.

like i stated, seeing guys after the fact is about the most that fans can surmise about a player's ceiling. seeing potential is something that most casual fans aren't very good at, as noted by the poor comparisons referenced above.

stating pax blew the pick is perfectly good 20-20 hindsight.

[Cliff Levingston]

Half of these guys you mentioned: Smith, Wallace, Amare, Mcdyess, Kemp, Balkman, KG, Williams and Maxiell ALL had skills coming into the NBA. All of these players had skills that they could bring to their teams without hurting the team.

Regarding the two bolded ones, you couldn't be anymore wrong.

Gerald Wallace was a late draft pick by the Kings when they were winning tons of games on the backs of Bibby, Webber, Divac and Peja. He couldn't get off the bench cause he was young and about as raw as they come (sound familiar?). Lo and behold, he gets his chance to play in Charlotte and begins to fulfill his potential.

...and just what skills does Balkman have that Tyrus doesn't?

[Ben]

Jeff, I'm sorry, but I've begun to doubt that you actually work for a pro basketball team. You say stuff like the mess that Cliff and Bullhitter called you on-- I just don't see that coming from someone with an intimate knowledge of basketball. But whatever. Maybe you are exactly who you claim to be, and that'd be very cool. Nonetheless, you make some horrendously wrong statements and comparisons relating to basketball.

EDIT: just wanted to add:
Balkman shot 26% jumpshots last year and had an eFG of 18.8% on them. This year he's shot 25% jumpshots and has an eFG of 21.4% on them.

Thomas: positive Roland rating. Balkman: negative Roland rating.

In his rookie year, Josh Smith shot jumpers 49% of the time. His eFG was a stellar 27%. Sure, I guess he didn't hurt his team.
In Smith's 2nd year he had a slightly better eFG han Thomas does in his 2nd year, 36%, but Smith shot friggin' 62% of his shots as jumpers. And had a negative net +/- effect on the Hawks.

Meanwhile, Tyrus Thomas had a positive net +/- on the Bulls not only last year but this year as well. He's also shooting a much higher eFG on jumpers than Balkman and a higher eFG than Smith.

Oh, and Jason Maxiell? Here's his scouting report from DraftExpress:

Might just not have the size or outstanding skills to make up for it at the next level. Non-existent ball-handling skills, can not put the ball on the floor as his 1st step is very limited. Jumper has improved but can only really hit it when he is wide open. Lateral quickness is very limited, and he'll struggle guarding PF's at the next level. Numbers have taken a hit playing next to better teammates. A bit inconsistent and is prone to disappear at times. Scores a lot in the post in college thanks to his brute strength, but needs to develop more of a finesse game to stick at the next level.

Just b/c I felt like scratching the tip of the iceberg.

[AirP.]

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Half of these guys you mentioned: Smith, Wallace, Amare, Mcdyess, Kemp, Balkman, KG, Williams and Maxiell ALL had skills coming into the NBA. All of these players had skills that they could bring to their teams without hurting the team. Comparing Tyrus to Kemp or Amare are the worst ones-- because both players were/are absolute beasts in the post. Kemp was the one player besides Sabonis that could do a pretty good job at guarding Shaq in his prime. TT had zero skills coming into the league much like Outlaw or Swift. Paxson blew the pick-- sure it is really early to say that but no way can I see TT becoming nearly as good as LMA, Roy or Gay.

To say Tyrus had zero skills coming into the league is completely false and if you knew anything about basketball instead of just going off what some reporters say you'd know that too.

I'm still wondering how many no skilled players have ever scored 20+ points in a game.

If you want to say he has limited moves in the post or a suspect jumper at best when he entered the league, fine.

I just don't understand why so many people have to make absolute statements instead of just correct ones?

[Cliff Levingston]

To say Tyrus had zero skills coming into the league is completely false and if you knew anything about basketball instead of just going off what some reporters say you'd know that too.

The best is how so many people on these boards think:

Defense = dumb hustle.
Offense = skill/talent.

How is Tyrus' great anticipation and timing when it comes to blocking shots and stealing passes not considered "skill?" How is understanding how to position yourself defensively and/or on the glass not considered "talent?"

[Red Larrivee]

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Not to mention Kevin Martin, Michael Redd, Gilbert Arenas, etc.

Too bad none of these players were raw coming out of college.

Michael Redd led Ohio State in scoring 3 years in a row and was a very good player.

Kevin Martin was a great scorer as well, and as we all know has an unorthodox shot that, is very lethal. I believe he totaled over 1,800 Points at Western Carolina, which is 4th in their basketball program.

Gilbert Arenas was a good scorer, and he heated it up in his 2nd season like crazy. He was a good treat to watch offensively.

If you're going to compare Tyrus Thomas coming out of college, compare him to raw players who turned into "Great Players." Which doesn't happen as often as you think. These guys actually had skill and an NBA game, and were not raw at all. But nobody projected them to be as good as the premier players in the class.

[theanimal23]

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Half of these guys you mentioned: Smith, Wallace, Amare, Mcdyess, Kemp, Balkman, KG, Williams and Maxiell ALL had skills coming into the NBA. All of these players had skills that they could bring to their teams without hurting the team. Comparing Tyrus to Kemp or Amare are the worst ones-- because both players were/are absolute beasts in the post. Kemp was the one player besides Sabonis that could do a pretty good job at guarding Shaq in his prime. TT had zero skills coming into the league much like Outlaw or Swift. Paxson blew the pick-- sure it is really early to say that but no way can I see TT becoming nearly as good as LMA, Roy or Gay.

Did you start watching basketball in the late 90s/early 00s when Kemp was on Portland?

[JeremyB0001]

Too bad none of these players were raw coming out of college.

Michael Redd led Ohio State in scoring 3 years in a row and was a very good player.

Kevin Martin was a great scorer as well, and as we all know has an unorthodox shot that, is very lethal. I believe he totaled over 1,800 Points at Western Carolina, which is 4th in their basketball program.

Gilbert Arenas was a good scorer, and he heated it up in his 2nd season like crazy. He was a good treat to watch offensively.

If you're going to compare Tyrus Thomas coming out of college, compare him to raw players who turned into "Great Players." Which doesn't happen as often as you think. These guys actually had skill and an NBA game, and were not raw at all. But nobody projected them to be as good as the premier players in the class.

Red, you're still just making general statements about Tyrus being "raw" instead of explaining what's mediocre about his college performance. As I noted before:

1) Best player on a Final Four team.
2) Put up strong college stats: 12 and 9 with 3 blocks and a 60% FG% in just 26 MPG. That compares well to college "stars" like Horford and Noah.
3) College stats that translate best to the NBA of anyone in his draft class based on Hollinger's studies.
4) Multiple dominant NCAA performances.

He obviously didn't have Durant/Oden type of success but no one in his draft class did. He obviously didn't have the polish and gaudy career college totals of someone who played three or four college seasons but that's rarely a major factor when selecting at the top of the draft. You seem intent on describing him as an athlete who strung together a few good games when in reality, he pretty closely resembles many players taken at the top of the draft.

[Ben]

Too bad none of these players were raw coming out of college.

Michael Redd led Ohio State in scoring 3 years in a row and was a very good player.

Kevin Martin was a great scorer as well, and as we all know has an unorthodox shot that, is very lethal. I believe he totaled over 1,800 Points at Western Carolina, which is 4th in their basketball program.

Gilbert Arenas was a good scorer, and he heated it up in his 2nd season like crazy. He was a good treat to watch offensively.

If you're going to compare Tyrus Thomas coming out of college, compare him to raw players who turned into "Great Players." Which doesn't happen as often as you think. These guys actually had skill and an NBA game, and were not raw at all. But nobody projected them to be as good as the premier players in the class.

Aarrgghhh.

You are doing it again, Red. You are not reading the posts to which you are responding.

Sensibull was responding to a post by Badboy, which in turn was responding to a post by YOU. YOU were the one who set up "toutedness" as a standard of whether a player was likely (or even able) to become a franchise player in the pros. Badboy responded by claiming that many good NBA players were not "much more touted" in college, which was what you had ignorantly written about Thomas (ignoring the incredible press buzz that he generated in his 1st year of on-court basketball).

Badboy's point was that Dwyane Wade was not all that highly touted before his JUNIOR season NCAA tourney, which is true. Sensibull added several excellent NBA players who also were not much heralded during their NCAA careers. The point was not whether Redd, Arenas or Martin were good/skilled players in college; the point was whether they were highly touted by the media and scouts. And you were the one who introduced that standard in the first place. Redd and Arenas were drafted in the 2nd round. Do you think that's b/c they were "much more highly touted," in your own eloquent words, during their collegiate careers? Of course not. They might have been good college players but they weren't all that highly touted, your standard for determining whether a player could be an NBA franchise player.

Then YOU jump back in and claim that they those guards all performed well in college. BUT THAT WAS NOT THE ISSUE BEING DISCUSSED. And you would have known that if you had read the posts before responding to them. Or if you had even remembered what you had written in the first place.

I'm not issuing a warning for THIS particular instance of reading incomprehension, but once again you're letting everyone ELSE know that you don't read others' posts before responding in knee-jerk fashion.

Almost the whole board is onto you now, Red. You'd better cut it out.

[DuckIII]

Funny thing is, I don't actually think Thomas is all that raw.

His post moves are raw. His jumper is improving, looking smoother and more relaxed. Despite the need to improve his decisionmaking (which will come naturally with experience and is a mental issue) he's a strong ball handler and passer for a power forward.

His shot blocking timing and instincts are remarkable. And though he could stand to improve the mechanics of his rebounding (i.e. locating the man to block out) he's still productive on the glass.

He's really not that raw on the whole. Its just that he has one noticeable element of his game - post scoring - that is very raw.

[TB#1]

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1) Best player on a Final Four team.
2) Put up strong college stats: 12 and 9 with 3 blocks and a 60% FG% in just 26 MPG. That compares well to college "stars" like Horford and Noah.
3) College stats that translate best to the NBA of anyone in his draft class based on Hollinger's studies.
4) Multiple dominant NCAA performances.

Pretty much true. Once thing that is interesting to note, is that Thomas was considered one of those "under the radar" players by a lot of people for most of his Fr year. A lot of "under the radar" guys who go on to get drafted that year tend to have decent regular seasons and then string together an amazing Tournament run -- a streak that may or may not have legs when they go pro.

Tyrus had an outstanding year at LSU, and then, with the exception of an absolutely monster game against Texas, had a pretty lackluster tourny.

I don't know that that means anything of significance.

[Red Larrivee]

Too bad none of these players were raw coming out of college.

Michael Redd led Ohio State in scoring 3 years in a row and was a very good player.

Kevin Martin was a great scorer as well, and as we all know has an unorthodox shot that, is very lethal. I believe he totaled over 1,800 Points at Western Carolina, which is 4th in their basketball program.

Gilbert Arenas was a good scorer, and he heated it up in his 2nd season like crazy. He was a good treat to watch offensively.

If you're going to compare Tyrus Thomas coming out of college, compare him to raw players who turned into "Great Players." Which doesn't happen as often as you think. These guys actually had skill and an NBA game, and were not raw at all. But nobody projected them to be as good as the premier players in the class.

Aarrgghhh.

You are doing it again, Red. You are not reading the posts to which you are responding.

Sensibull was responding to a post by Badboy, which in turn was responding to a post by YOU. YOU were the one who set up "toutedness" as a standard of whether a player was likely (or even able) to become a franchise player in the pros. Badboy responded by claiming that many good NBA players were not "much more touted" in college, which was what you had ignorantly written about Thomas (ignoring the incredible press buzz that he generated in his 1st year of on-court basketball).

Badboy's point was that Dwyane Wade was not all that highly touted before his JUNIOR season NCAA tourney, which is true. Sensibull added several excellent NBA players who also were not much heralded during their NCAA careers. The point was not whether Redd, Arenas or Martin were good/skilled players in college; the point was whether they were highly touted by the media and scouts. And you were the one who introduced that standard in the first place. Redd and Arenas were drafted in the 2nd round. Do you think that's b/c they were "much more highly touted," in your own eloquent words, during their collegiate careers? Of course not. They might have been good college players but they weren't all that highly touted, your standard for determining whether a player could be an NBA franchise player.

Then YOU jump back in and claim that they those guards all performed well in college. BUT THAT WAS NOT THE ISSUE BEING DISCUSSED. And you would have known that if you had read the posts before responding to them. Or if you had even remembered what you had written in the first place.

I'm not issuing a warning for THIS particular instance of reading incomprehension, but once again you're letting everyone ELSE know that you don't read others' posts before responding in knee-jerk fashion.

Almost the whole board is onto you now, Red. You'd better cut it out.

Thanks Hall Monitor Spongebob. Stop trying to play "hero" and turning the thread into something else. Like you said just "Private message" it.

I knew exactly what he was talking about, and I read the posts before it.

[DuckIII]

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Thanks Hall Monitor Spongebob.

Well, did he accurately break down the chronology of posts?

[Magilla_Gorilla]

I don't have kids, I didn't even know Spongebob was a hall monitor?

[DuckIII]

I don't have kids, I didn't even know Spongebob was a hall monitor?

He is a fry cook at the Krusty Krab, owned and operated by frugal proprietor Mr. Krabs, located in lovely oceanic Bikini Bottom. He loves the sweaters his grandma knits for him and repeatedly has trouble acquiring a driver's license due to ineptitude. SpongeBob and his corpulent friend Patrick repeatedly attempt to befriend a sour fellow named Squidward J. Tentacles, but he doesn't care for them. However, in their steady dimness they fail to realize this, which tends to aggrivate Squidward even more.

I do have kids.

[Ben]

Red is trying to dismiss a public humiliation with a bad attempt at humor and a statement that's obviously false ("I knew exactly what he was talking about, and I read the posts before it."). If Red had really read the posts before it and knew what the previous poster had been talking about, and still posted the obvious non-sequitur that he did, he would be a very, very stupid person. I choose not to believe that, and certainly not to write it, b/c writing it would be a TOS violation and I respect the TOS.

All of you can see and judge what's going on, and you can choose whom to put on "ignore." Unfortunately, as a mod I cannot. But we all have our crosses to bear.

[TB#1]

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He is a fry cook at the Krusty Krab, owned and operated by the its frugal proprietor Mr. Krabs, located in lovely oceanic Bikini Bottom. He loves the sweaters his grandma knits for him and repeatedly has trouble acquiring a driver's license due to ineptitude. SpongeBob and his corpulent friend Patrick repeatedly attempt to befriend a sour fellow named Squidward J. Tentacles, but he doesn't care for them. However, in their steady dimness they fail to realize this, which tends to aggrivate Squidward even more.

I do have kids.

There was an episode where he got to be a hall monitor at boating school. It did not go well, and all sorts of hijinx ensued.

[DuckIII]

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There was an episode where he got to be a hall monitor at boating school. It did not go well, and all sorts of hijinx ensued.

That SpongeBob. What will he do next?