Postgame: Same ol'

[Ben]

My summary--

The season
(picture)

Oh, the humanity!!!

[robg]

The Philadelphia game was really a 'bad win' in that, yes it was a nice comeback but Philly just collapsed.

Yea i hate to say it but i think id rather have lost that game.
what message does that send to our players; we can play like crap and still win?

[robg]

-= original quote snipped =-



This is a fair question and an oft-discussed point on this board, but I think it bears mentioning that teams have been throwing a double at Gordon all season long whether there is a pick or not.

Why? Because Gordon can't handle them for ****.

It doesn't help ben is bad passer w/ just one guy on him, he's worst when double teamed.

[cark]

There were only two good moments, today.

Before the game, when Noce was pretending to bow hunt the real hawk that Atlanta trots out for the lineup ceremony.

At the end of the game, when the entire Atlanta bench was trying their hardest not to laugh at West clutching his junk.

Everything in between sucked. Bleh.

[girlygirl]

We really have to cut our ties with Hinrich. He could probably bring a 6-10 pick back in a trade. He hurts us so badly on offense though. Whatever he brings to the table defensively (which he no longer brings) isn't worth the poor offense. Same can be said about Wallace.

First of all, Hinrich on his own isn't going to get you a lottery pick. You yourself have said his value is at an all-time low. The same can be said of all the other players on the team. In fact, the guy on the club who may have the most trade value to another team is Joe Smith. He is playing well and he has a reasonable contract.

Second of all could you please complain about someone other than Hinrich? We all know he's having an awful season. No one here denies that. Not even me!!!

However, he is NOT the only one having a poor season for the Bulls. Ben Gordon's numbers are ALSO down across the board from last season. Chris Duhon is supposed to be a playmaker? He's averaging a whopping 4.4 APG since moving into the lineup. Nocioni's shooting % are down sharply from last season. Ben Wallace shows up like once every five games. Joe Smith is the only big man who can make a shot outside of five feet away from the basket. Etc etc.


So why not cut ties with everyone on the team that you can -- not just Hinrich? Aside from Joe Smith and Aaron Gray, no one has lived up to his contract, let alone to expectations this season. So what the hell -- get rid of everyone you can and start over.

[emperorjones]

Thinking on the positive side.

1) We can build around Deng
2) We did not sign Ben Gordon to a long term extension
3) Every game Ben Wallace plays is one less game he's under contract

[fudgie]

Ben Gordon does not handle double teams well which is why teams will always double him, but do we really have to hand them a free double team by running the pick and roll with Wallace.

[bullzman23]

-= original quote snipped =-
First of all, Hinrich on his own isn't going to get you a lottery pick.

I disagree. I believe Hinrich could get us a pick from the 6-12 range.

You yourself have said his value is at an all-time low.

I've never said this. I don't believe that Hinrich's value has suffered much if any to be honest. You don't trade Gordon because he has terrible value. He's viewed as an undersized SG. No one will trade anything valuable for that. Hinrich has a pretty good rep. around the league and is listed as a PG (the second hardest position to fill). I'd put money that we could get something valuable for him, especially if we could get past the BYC.

Second of all could you please complain about someone other than Hinrich?

Only if you stop defending Hinrich .

But that's not true. I complain about Wallace, Duhon, Deng, and Noce quite often.

However, he is NOT the only one having a poor season for the Bulls.

And I'm not denying that. But he is having the worst season on the team, and probably a worst season than Chandler's last one. I don't think I've seen anyone be so terrible on the Bulls before (who used to be quite good) besides maybe Ben Wallace.

Ben Gordon's numbers are ALSO down across the board from last season.

They're not thaaat much lower than his usual play though. FG% is on the rise up. Assists are down, but that has more to do with his new role off the bench. He's averaging a career high in RPG and has cut his turnovers and fouls considerably. He's also a ton more important to this team's success than Hinrich.

Chris Duhon is supposed to be a playmaker? He's averaging a whopping 4.4 APG since moving into the lineup. Nocioni's shooting % are down sharply from last season. Ben Wallace shows up like once every five games.

Right, and I've said a number of times that all three of these players should be moved if possible.

So why not cut ties with everyone on the team that you can -- not just Hinrich?

Is this a legit question? Why would I write a post where I demand that all 15 players be traded? That'd be silly and obviously pointless as that'd be an unrealistic request. I'm asking for Hinrich to be traded because he's playing the worst, has value, is tradeable, and I believe is hurting our offense significantly.

[fudgie]

If Hinrich can get us a 6-12 pick and we don't have to take back a bad contract, I'm in.

[Doofer]

[bullzman23]

Also, I'd like to add that Hinrich is no longer our second or third option on offense. He's become our fifth. He's behind Gordon, Deng, Smith, and Noce on the food chain. If that's all he's going to be for us, then we can't justify his contract.

If we can't get a pick we should focus on getting a young sleeper like Daequan Cook and an expiring contract (Jason Williams) for Hinrich.

[sk33]

I forgot we were playing today because today belonged to the Giants for me.

We lost by 20, had no Noah, and Tyrus and Gray combined for 10 minutes?

Can somebody explain?

[Magilla_Gorilla]

I forgot we were playing today because today belonged to the Giants for me.

We lost by 20, had no Noah, and Tyrus and Gray combined for 10 minutes?

Can somebody explain?

There is no explanation.

[MrSparkle]

I can't believe we thought Hinrich got a fair contract?!

The guy is a MLE pick-up at most. Steve Blake has officially evened out.

Our two best paid players have committed the cardinal sin; underachieve FAR beyond what one can possibly underachieve for his contract.

History shows that when a well-paid player shows frustration/lack of effort/lack of leadership or good attitude... a team goes down-hill. Hell, at least Antonio Davis gave it his all on and off the court, what with his gimp legs. Wallace and Hinrich aren't saying the right things, nor are they playing smart, nor effectively.

Their failure to show up this season is the reason we are where we are. The system was built around their (defensive) strengths, and Hinrich has been a recurring captain. I can't expect Gordon to all of a sudden pick up the slack and learn and run a new system, but I would have trained him into that role a long time ago.

This team's complete inability to play fast-break basketball and defend the style is haunting, but to be fair, it's completely different than the way they used to play. I don't know about everyone else, but I think there is NO way this season bounces back our way (more specifically, a decent playoff run) unless they play the Skiles plan.

I would honestly set up a new vision of the team, make a trade, and set up for the best possible off-season while staying classy. Wallace HAS to go whether it's the deadline or off-season. Hate to say I was dead wrong, the signing has proven to be HORRIBLE, and perhaps the destruction of this team.

[girlygirl]

Also, I'd like to add that Hinrich is no longer our second or third option on offense. He's become our fifth. He's behind Gordon, Deng, Smith, and Noce on the food chain. If that's all he's going to be for us, then we can't justify his contract.

If we can't get a pick we should focus on getting a young sleeper like Daequan Cook and an expiring contract (Jason Williams) for Hinrich.

I understand Williams is an expiring contract, but are you not wanting anybody back in a trade who can actually play? Because he stinks even when he's healthy -- and his knees are so bad now that he's hardly ever halthy.

As for Cook, he's basically Ben Gordon lite -- a small shooting guard who is a very streaky shooter. He probably has even less ballhandling/playmaking skills than BG. And from the few times I've seen him play this year, he has a long way to go before he's even close to Gordon as a defender.

Isn't the idea of making trades to improve your team? Because this trade wouldn't improve the team at all. It gives the Bulls more salary cap space, true...but do you see any of the top free agents even WANTING to come to this team (unless of course the Bulls decide to massively overpay them)? I don't...not with all the uncertainty about who the coach will be and the turoil within the team.

Why don't you focus on what the Bulls could get for Gordon? Big shooting guards are easier to find than than good PGs, so BG should be able to bring the Bulls back something WAY better than J-Will and Daequan Cook...

EDIT: And I'd like to disagree with you on something you said in your last reply to me. Gordon's FG% is NOT on the rise. He is shooting 41.3% from the floor -- he had that stretch of games right after Skiles was fired when he shot a very high %, but OVER THE LAST 4 GAMES he has shot 35.7% from the field and 31.8% from behind the 3-point arc, averaging just 15.5 PPG over that span. Whatever boost he got from Skiles' firing has worn off, at least for the moment. OVER THIS SAME 4-GAME SPAN, Hinrich is averaging 14.0 PPG while shooting 43.8% from the field and 36.4% from behind the arc. So I don't quite see how you can argue that Hinrich's offense is killing the team right now when -- at least over the past few games -- he's shooting a much higher % than Gordon and is scoring at a similar rate.

Granted, on the season BG has been more consistent than Kirk, but 41.3% (and 35.8% from 3-point range) is not exactly anything to get excited about.

[theanimal23]

Blow it up. I want a full rebuild from scratch.

[bullzman23]

I understand Williams is an expiring contract, but are you not wanting anybody back in a trade who can actually play? Because he stinks even when he's healthy -- and his knees are so bad now that he's hardly ever halthy.

I'm not too interested in him as a player. He's there for financial relief. His contract could make it easier to later facilitate a Gasol trade, while also giving us options as a candidate to be signed and traded. Obviously he's not as good as Hinrich, but then again I'm not advocating for him to be a major component of this trade, although he works fine as a bench player.

As for Cook, he's basically Ben Gordon lite -- a small shooting guard who is a very streaky shooter. He probably has even less ballhandling/playmaking skills than BG. And from the few times I've seen him play this year, he has a long way to go before he's even close to Gordon as a defender.

How is Cook undersized? He's listed at 6'5". He's athletic and knows how to use that to his advantage in games. Obviously if Cook was 27 your complaints would be fair, but we're talking about a 20 year old rookie hear for God's sake. He clearly has more potential than Hinrich, and Gordon too for that matter. That's why we're trading.

Isn't the idea of making trades to improve your team?

Hopefully you don't see all things as this black and white. If every trade was intended to immediately improve your team, then you'd never see a trade being made. This trade may not immediately improve us, however, it gives us a guy with legit size at the two, while also giving us a prospect with star potential. Go to the Heat board and ask them what they think of Cook.

This season is pretty close to being over in terms of chasing the playoffs. With that in mind, we no longer have to make a trade where the pieces have to fit perfectly. We're (almost) in the position where we should worry about improving our cap situation and finding players that give us more talent. This whole idea about working harder than everyone else was cute while it lasted, but it's over now GG. Talent in the end wins out, and that's why we're sucking so much now. We're overmatched significantly by other teams. When Joe Smith stops smiling, you know things are bad.

It gives the Bulls more salary cap space, true...but do you see any of the top free agents even WANTING to come to this team (unless of course the Bulls decide to massively overpay them)? I don't...not with all the uncertainty about who the coach will be and the turoil within the team.

First of all, this trade wouldn't give us capspace to sign free-agents. It'd get rid of Hinrich, who is quickly turning into a bad contract. If Hinrich is our fifth option on offense, we cannot justify him paying him this much money. The contract was very reasonable when Hinrich was averaging around 16 and 6, but that is no longer the case. For that reason, we should start clearing out contracts (this includes Noce) so that we can make it easier to retain Gordon/Deng and Thomas/Sefolosha/Noah when/if the time comes. At this point Hinrich and Noce could potentialy hinder this.

Also your comment about free-agency isn't fair. We can't see what's in the future. Free-agents go to bad teams often. And most FAs are probably smart enough to know that the Bulls could easily rebound and turn things around.

Why don't you focus on what the Bulls could get for Gordon?

Why? I've already explained why it's difficult to trade Gordon. The rest of the league views him as undersized two who is better suited off of the bench. No one will trade us equal value for him. We also cannot afford to trade him without getting his scoring back. I also believe that Hinrich has greater trade value. Finally, Gordon is the more valuable player. We shouldn't trade him for the sake of trading him. Once he improves his ball-handling he'll be a great fit to our team. That's not a hard thing to improve on (which he actually has), and with his work-ethic it is very possible. Hinrich is essentially the same player he has always been but with a bigger role.

Big shooting guards are easier to find than than good PGs

The problem is that Hinrich isn't a good PG. He's a mediocre to bad one. We can't keep mentioning last season. Thirty-Four games into the season is a significant number. Hinrich's past shooting also suggests that last season may have just been a fluke.

But if you think Gordon can bring us back more than what Kirk could bring, please share. I'd be interested in seeing what you think he could bring back.

That being said, my trade's motivation was finding a player with loads of potential. I wasn't looking for a trade that could immediately make us better.

EDIT: And I'd like to disagree with you on something you said in your last reply to me. Gordon's FG% is NOT on the rise. He is shooting 41.3% from the floor -- he had that stretch of games right after Skiles was fired when he shot a very high %, but OVER THE LAST 4 GAMES he has shot 35.7% from the field and 31.8% from behind the 3-point arc, averaging just 15.5 PPG over that span.

Four games is an awfully small sample size, isn't it?

Let's look at it like this. Gordon's FG% per month (NBA.com):

Nov: 37.5%
Dec: 44.8 %
Jan: 44.4%

So clearly he has improved tremendously since November. In the current day NBA 44-45% FG from your guards is pretty good shooting. We're no longer in the era where you can expect your guards to shoot 50%.

Whatever boost he got from Skiles' firing has worn off, at least for the moment. OVER THIS SAME 4-GAME SPAN, Hinrich is averaging 14.0 PPG while shooting 43.8% from the field and 36.4% from behind the arc. So I don't quite see how you can argue that Hinrich's offense is killing the team right now when -- at least over the past few games -- he's shooting a much higher % than Gordon and is scoring at a similar rate.

Again, four games is a ridiculously small sample size for you to write in caps twice in one post.

Hinrich's shooting percentage is slowly climbing too, but so what? This guy has reached his peak, and quite frankly that's not good enough for this current team. Anyone who is watching can see that Hinrich hurts our team. His constant transition jumpers hurt momentum. They literally never go in. He can't attack the hoop often or well. He's not efficient, he fouls at a high rate, he's a mediocre play maker. For these reasons we're better off taking a chance on someone who has more potential. If you're happy with being stuck in mediocrity than Hinrich should stay.

Granted, on the season BG has been more consistent than Kirk, but 41.3% (and 35.8% from 3-point range) is not exactly anything to get excited about.

It's not I agree, but he'll get better. If that's nothing to get excited about (but wait, when did I show excitement in the last three posts about BG? In fact, in the previous two posts I barely mentioned him...yet this has quickly turned into Gordon v. Hinrich, why?) then tell me what your reaction to 39% FG and 29.6% from downtown is?

You definitely need your fifth option to shoot at a high percentage. These type of guys aren't supposed to take too many shots that they aren't good at making. That's why Hinrich's FG% is so low. He plays out of his element. He doesn't understand his limitations.

[TB#1]

Full Article

Hawks 105, Bulls 84

Bulls' loss to Atlanta is really defenseless
Hot-shooting Hawks 'have their way' in blowout
By K.C. Johnson | Tribune staff reporter
9:09 PM CST, January 13, 2008

ATLANTA - The Bulls did a better job of defending assistant coach Ron Adams' authority than the Hawks.

After voting to make Joakim Noah sit for a second game as punishment for his tirade against Adams on Friday, the Bulls repeatedly were burned in transition defense and fell meekly 105-84 Sunday at Philips Arena.

Not even Luol Deng's 28 points in his return from missing three games with left Achilles' tendinitis could stop the Bulls from blowing a chance to pull within one game of eighth-seeded Atlanta in the Eastern Conference playoff picture.

The Bulls, who trailed by 19 in the first quarter and 24 at their largest deficit, hadn't lost to Atlanta since April 9, 2004, a span of 12 games.

"Our lack of energy and physical play in the first half really opened the gates for them," interim coach Jim Boylan said. "It let them get out and run to a lot of transition baskets. We just kind of let them have their way.

[suckfish]

"Our lack of energy and physical play in the first half really opened the gates for them,"

Thats the first thing that I noted. We got beat up and bullied. Thats what worries me, we get dunked on and embarrassed and it's as if the bulls have no pride. Any other team would stand up and fight, aren't professionals athletes supposed to be competitive?

Just getting walked all other by the mediocre but energetic Hawks.

Have some self respect.

[Fenix]

So we now need a: point guard you can actually make plays, a shooting guard with shooting guard size, a near 7-foot centre who can score 10 points at least once a week and/or bring All-Star defense, a 6th man who doesn't chuck and a competent coach. Pax has managed to construct almost as dysfunctional team as Isiah.