Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[the ultimates]

How much more accountability or "hard coaching" does Jimmy want? Niko got sent to the bench and has seen his minutes reduced. Snell is starting but has seen his minutes go down with Doug playing better. Even Doug will still see limited minutes if the match-up is tough for him like what happened in the last Pacers meeting. Brooks instead of being the primary backup point guard is sharing it with Hinrich. Joakim has played better and got more minutes. Are all of these now not examples of accountability?

I means seriously WTF does he want. Throwing your coach and teammates under the bus 20+ games into the season and passively mentioning yourself as also being part of the problem doesn't help anybody.

[fleet]

I'm shocked to read that people actually support Butler for this. Well, I'm not, but you get my drift.

There is no defense of a player coming out and questioning his coach publicly like this. It's asinine to suggest otherwise, no matter how truthful his comments may/may not be.

small minority has defended him. Most people think it was the wrong thing to do. Nuanced by the idea that the bigger problem is the problems Jimmy identified

[MC3]

If you are one of these trying to force this into the Rose V Jimmy box, that may be a fair take, but you don't know that. It may just as easily be, again, things like Snell going for a nap on the O glass so that Luc Mbah a Moute steal rebounds and Pau Gasol ends up yelling at people. Is Hoiberg cleaning anything up? Jimmy implies (thanks Re') no.

I have no way of knowing exactly what Jimmy is referring to, making his vague, whiny, dramatic comments even more damaging. It doesn't matter who he is talking about. The comments are stupid and damaging regardless. Jimmy, sorry you don't want to play the coaches schemes. Ask for a trade.

it's really that simple. but he needs to start wonder what he will do when he become member of Kings franchise.

[Stratmaster]

If you are one of these trying to force this into the Rose V Jimmy box, that may be a fair take, but you don't know that. It may just as easily be, again, things like Snell going for a nap on the O glass so that Luc Mbah a Moute steal rebounds and Pau Gasol ends up yelling at people. Is Hoiberg cleaning anything up? Jimmy implies (thanks Re') no.

I have no way of knowing exactly what Jimmy is referring to, making his vague, whiny, dramatic comments even more damaging. It doesn't matter who he is talking about. The comments are stupid and damaging regardless. Jimmy, sorry you don't want to play the coaches schemes. Ask for a trade.

If it was up to Stratmaster the Bulls would be rolling out Hinrich, McDermott, Luol Deng, Taj Gibson and Joakim Noah because they are all good soldiers, toe the company line, play hard and give it their all regardless of the fact that they'd win 15 games.

Just because you have a crazy conspiracy theory about Rose don't make up crazy ones and attribute them to me.

BTW, Deng hasn't played for the Bulls for a minute now.

[CmonScal]

Fred Hoiberg has a pacemaker in his heart. He's had multiple cardiac procedures. A long NBA career, a strong showing in the FO in Minny and a distinguished resume in NCAA.

I doubt he gives 2 flying **** on how Jimmy thinks he should coach the team. Especially, when that feedback is delivered via the media.

Jimmy - you made your money, you are playing well, just know that your hardship to success story doesn't mean other folks in the NBA don't have the same stories.

Fred's paid his dues already.

Fred's paid his dues already - what does that mean? That he can sit back and let the team coach itself? We've seen this season that Fred Hoiberg has been a below average NBA coach. We've passed the quarter point of the season and he still doesn't understand how to manage simple NBA rotations and substitutions. That's not to say he can't get better - I certainly would bet he will in the future. But because he's been around the league a while means that we all can give him a pass? You know who else "paid his dues already"? Byron Scott. Sam Mitchell. I simply don't see how paying your dues makes you infallible.

Speaking to a larger point, I'm not entirely bothered by Jimmy's comments because I think it's going to mix things up in the locker room quite a bit. Could that be bad for the team? There's a possibility. However, continuing with the current status quo won't result in anything good, so I'd rather have someone looking to change things than standing pat and accepting mediocrity.

You didn't get my point at all.

Would Fred Hoiberg be a better coach if he:

1) Tweeted that Niko Mirotic is a terrible teammate?
2) Told Sam Smith that Derrick Rose is only playing well in nationally televised games?
3) Told Nick Friedell that Pau Gasol is the worst defender he has ever seen?
4) Told Haugh that Jimmy Butler plays too much ISO.

That doesn't make him any better than he is today as a coach.

The Jimmy method of strong-arming Fred through the media is NOT going to work. Because Fred is already a strong personality with his own basketball chops in coaching, player management and as a player himself. That was my point about "paying dues". This isn't a battle between unequals. Fred can stand up for himself quite nicely - and that's without Gar or Pax even stepping in.

Yes he is new to the NBA coaching and new to the Chicago Bulls. But so was Jimmy 5 seasons ago. Everyone has growing pains and learning curves.

Imagine if Fred told the media that "Pau needs to listen to the coaches more" OR "Jimmy needs to play within the team construct".

There is no relative right or wrong here. Jimmy is ABSOLUTELY wrong here.

Even from a logic/basketball perspective - it's kind of ridiculous to use the second game played on a night after a 4 OT game and a game in which Pau was not available and everyone else pretty much stunk ( including Jimmy) - it makes like ZERO sense for Jimmy to use that night as the time for laying the gauntlet at Fred.

And the place for it was also ABSOLUTELY wrong. It's NEVER in front of a microphone. You do that if you are getting poor advise OR if you are frustrated and do not have the capacity to regulate yourself emotionally.

If it's the latter, then Jimmy is a terrible leader of men.

Here's some quotes I wouldn't mind for Fred to say to players in the locker room, which apparently he isn't doing according to Jimmy.

"Derrick your effort tonight was miserable, you're going to need to display a higher effort more frequently or you're going to lose playing time"

"Niko, if you don't stop flopping around and begin to work harder, you're not going to play at the end of games"

"Pau, you need to put forth more effort on the defensive end or we're going to play Noah more"

It seems that Jimmy is the only one on this team who is bothered by the bad losses and the awful effort that he's seeing.
He's taking to the media as a means of trying to fix the major problems in this team, as nothing else has worked.

Disclaimer: I'm going to make the assumption that Jimmy's talked to Fred behind closed doors about this all already. If he hasn't, that's not good at all, but Jimmy alluded in his comments that they've discussed these things and I think it's a reasonable assumption.

Listen, I agree with you that calling people out through the media isn't indicative of positive signs. My question to you is, though, are you content with the poor coaching and miserable effort we've seen thus far? It's certainly not ideal, but as I stated, I prefer this much more than keeping with the status quo.

[Rerisen]

Pau has been just fine this season, and in fact has been the Bulls MVP so far, efficiency be damned.

Butler is our MVP, and its not even close. Our best player on both ends of the floor and you want to trade him because he wants the team held to a higher account.

Yeah lets just clear everyone else out, sit here and cheer for our geriatric vets of Kirk, Pau, Dunleavy and Taj, because they are 'professionals'. What a future plan that is.

[Dajody10]

I'm shocked to read that people actually support Butler for this. Well, I'm not, but you get my drift.

There is no defense of a player coming out and questioning his coach publicly like this. It's asinine to suggest otherwise, no matter how truthful his comments may/may not be.

small minority has defended him. Most people think it was the wrong thing to do. Nuanced by the idea that the bigger problem is the problems Jimmy identified

I defend the objective, yet I reject how he went about it. Butler really wants to call out Rose, but he basically said the players can call each other out but it doesn't have the same meaning as it does coming from the coach. He wants Hoiberg to make Rose accountable, yet Butler should have said that instead of sideswiping the real issue.

[GetBuLLish]

I'm shocked to read that people actually support Butler for this. Well, I'm not, but you get my drift.

There is no defense of a player coming out and questioning his coach publicly like this. It's asinine to suggest otherwise, no matter how truthful his comments may/may not be.

Did Butler choose the best approach? Perhaps not.

One thing I know for sure is that the negativity being directed at Butler (including demands the he be traded ) are so out of proportion to how poorly Butler's comments may have been.

Anyways, if it turns out that Hoiberg is actually not a good coach, then the fact that he was hired is about 100x worse than Butler's comments.

[Rerisen]

BTW, Deng hasn't played for the Bulls for a minute now.

Interesting name, as team cohesion was a lot better before we jettisoned the most respected leader in the locker room.

Though credit to Thibs he did rally the team awesomely after Deng was traded in 2014, defeating what could easily have been a stealth tank move that year.

But that was more of a one year defiant reaction by the team it seemed. Once they finally ran out of anger the next year, the team has since seemed rather headless in terms of leadership.

[Stratmaster]

Pau has been just fine this season, and in fact has been the Bulls MVP so far, efficiency be damned.

Butler is our MVP, and its not even close. Our best player on both ends of the floor and you want to trade him because he wants the team held to a higher account.

Yeah lets just clear everyone else out, sit here and cheer for our geriatric vets of Kirk, Pau, Dunleavy and Taj, because they are 'professionals'. What a future plan that is.

WTF? You just got done saying you would trade Butler or Rose or both for the right player. Which is it?

We have won more games because of Pau than Butler, regardless of efficiency, playing both ends of the court, etc. But I couldn't give a damn about a pissing match over which player is more valuable.

And i never said a thing about cheering for geriatric vets. In fact, I suggested trading one of them, along with Butler, for an impact player. But if you want to start attacking each other go for it. It is usually the route you go at some point when the discussion doesn't favor you. "I don't make sense but the other guy is just stupid". then you make up stuff they never said and attribute it to them.

[GetBuLLish]

Jokes are usually funny because people know they have a basis in truth. That one was 'funny' because everyone knew KeBo stunk. The joke would not have been funny if Jimmy was our SG.

You made it seem like Rose was being interviewed after a game and said the team needed a SG and that even Barack Obama would be better than Bogans.

Not one person ever took it as throwing Bogans under the boss. And it's extremely dishonest to say otherwise.

You're wrong, some did. There was a discussion on the board after it which was similar to the one we are having about Butler's comments. While you might have thought it was nothing, some others felt it wasn't being a great teammate.

I'd love to see that discussion because I don't recall it whatsoever.

[Dajody10]

I have no way of knowing exactly what Jimmy is referring to, making his vague, whiny, dramatic comments even more damaging. It doesn't matter who he is talking about. The comments are stupid and damaging regardless. Jimmy, sorry you don't want to play the coaches schemes. Ask for a trade.

If it was up to Stratmaster the Bulls would be rolling out Hinrich, McDermott, Luol Deng, Taj Gibson and Joakim Noah because they are all good soldiers, toe the company line, play hard and give it their all regardless of the fact that they'd win 15 games.

Just because you have a crazy conspiracy theory about Rose don't make up crazy ones and attribute them to me.

BTW, Deng hasn't played for the Bulls for a minute now.

How exactly is it a crazy conspiracy? Multiple people reporting it, Rose basically quit in the playoffs, now Butler is calling out Hoiberg for not making his players accountable. There is no conspiracy, your're uncomfortable with the fact that there is true dysfunction within this organization and locker room. Starts and ends with Rose - Butler needs to be more clear and no sideswipe his true feelings, which are all pointed towards the PG who doesn't play hard half the time.

[Dajody10]

BTW, Deng hasn't played for the Bulls for a minute now.

Interesting name, as team cohesion was a lot better before we jettisoned the most respected leader in the locker room.

Though credit to Thibs he did rally the team awesomely after Deng was traded in 2014, defeating what could easily have been a stealth tank move that year.

But that was more of a one year defiant reaction by the team it seemed. Once they finally ran out of anger the next year, the team has since seemed rather headless in terms of leadership.

The same Luol Deng who quit on Scott Skiles and Del Nego? Comon now, I knew bringing up lover boy Luol Deng was a risky proposition, but I didn't think it would be a rallying cry! smfh

[Rerisen]

WTF? You just got done saying you would trade Butler or Rose or both for the right player. Which is it?

There is a massive gulf between, "I would trade him for the right player" - a trade that doesn't exist right now - and, "He needs to go."

We have won more games because of Pau than Butler, regardless of efficiency, playing both ends of the court, etc. But I couldn't give a damn about a pissing match over which player is more valuable.

I won't even address this because I know it will just be try to trash every objective measurement of how much players impact the game.

And i never said a thing about cheering for geriatric vets. In fact, I suggested trading one of them, along with Butler, for an impact player. But if you want to start attacking each other go for it. It is usually the route you go at some point when the discussion doesn't favor you. "I don't make sense but the other guy is just stupid".

Weren't you the guy who mentioned all our vets as the players on the team doing what they are supposed to, in effect?

[DarthDiggler69]

There is nothing wrong with calling anyone out but you should not do it in public, unless we are shareholders or something which we are not

[Rerisen]

BTW, Deng hasn't played for the Bulls for a minute now.

Interesting name, as team cohesion was a lot better before we jettisoned the most respected leader in the locker room.

Though credit to Thibs he did rally the team awesomely after Deng was traded in 2014, defeating what could easily have been a stealth tank move that year.

But that was more of a one year defiant reaction by the team it seemed. Once they finally ran out of anger the next year, the team has since seemed rather headless in terms of leadership.

The same Luol Deng who quit on Scott Skiles and Del Nego? Comon now, I knew bringing up lover boy Luol Deng was a risky proposition, but I didn't think it would be a rallying cry! smfh

I wasn't the biggest Deng fan myself, but I'm just explaining what the players on the team said about his importance as a leader and in the locker room.

And other than the defiant rally they did to finish 2014, the locker room has seemed a mess and team effort crappy, since they gave him the ultimatum to take that contract or get traded.

Players were really down after that trade, saying Deng was like their brother, they lost a great voice, etc.

[R3AL1TY]

If it was up to Stratmaster the Bulls would be rolling out Hinrich, McDermott, Luol Deng, Taj Gibson and Joakim Noah because they are all good soldiers, toe the company line, play hard and give it their all regardless of the fact that they'd win 15 games.

Just because you have a crazy conspiracy theory about Rose don't make up crazy ones and attribute them to me.

BTW, Deng hasn't played for the Bulls for a minute now.

How exactly is it a crazy conspiracy? Multiple people reporting it, Rose basically quit in the playoffs, now Butler is calling out Hoiberg for not making his players accountable. There is no conspiracy, your're uncomfortable with the fact that there is true dysfunction within this organization and locker room. Starts and ends with Rose - Butler needs to be more clear and no sideswipe his true feelings, which are all pointed towards the PG who doesn't play hard half the time.

If Butler is really trying to call out Rose, but is sidestepping it vaguely, it will not only make him look bad in making these comments about the coach public, but not being a man enough to bring this up to Rose or the coaching staff.

[Rerisen]

I'd love to see that discussion because I don't recall it whatsoever.

We are into minutia anyway, not that important.

Main idea, I don't take up with the opportunism some are finding here to say, Rose = True Leader, Butler = Fake bum leader.

Which was pretty apparent what those posts were about. And not at all germane to this topic I think.

[GetBuLLish]

I'd love to see that discussion because I don't recall it whatsoever.

We are into minutia anyway, not that important.

Main idea, I don't take up with the opportunism some are finding here to say, Rose = True Leader, Butler = Fake bum leader.

Which was pretty apparent what those posts were about. And not at all germane to this topic I think.

That came from like 1 or 2 posters. Trying to liken Jimmy's comments to Rose's joke at a political fundraiser is a stretch, to say the least.

But you are right that it's minutia.

[TheGOATRises007]

If Butler is calling out Rose, he's picked an awful time to do it too.

Rose has started showing more aggression lately. If he goes back to his lazy play, then Butler should approach him man-to-man and talk to him.

These shots through the media are cringe worthy. Especially if it's a teammate on another teammate.