Is Zach LaVine a Winner?

[bullsnewdynasty]

Because Middleton can't create his own shot, while he doesn't need to in Milwaukee. He's never had to carry an offense and plays with an MVP.

You should watch more Middleton when you get a chance. He can get his own shot:

Isolation Plays:

LaVine: 0.88 PPP (2.8 poss/gm)
Middleton: 0.91 PPP (2.3 poss/gm)

Middleton doesn't have the athletic advantages Zach has, but he's improved significantly at getting to his spots quicker than his defender. Plus, he rises up quickly with a fast release and has become an elite shooter. Middleton has legitimately become a Top 20-25 player this season. PER36, he's averaging 25.1p, 7.3r, 5.2a on a .508/.441/.902 shooting line. He's Top 12 in the league in RPM as well. He's earned his all-star spot.

I agree that playing with Giannis offers more favorable defensive matchups, especially in a better offense, but right now Middleton is a noticeably better player than LaVine.

The difference is he plays on a way better team with less defensive attention.

He’s a good role player who’s in the perfect situation for his game. That doesn’t mean he’s a better player.

[TheFinishSniper]

When people comparing stats of A player on good team with all spacing and good players while still sharing floor with franchise player and B player on worst team in league, bottom low in coaching, roster construction, front office managment and with Felicio level players sharing floor make me chuckle.

Zach is twice player Middleton is. I really wish see Middleton how "well would he do it" on Bulls team. Likely just as good as lead Harrison Barnes Dallas team when he got paid. Even worse likely because Carlisle isnt bum coach and Dirk was still there to keep some kind of vet leadership in lockeroom.

[dice]

When people comparing stats of A player on good team with all spacing and good players while still sharing floor with franchise player and B player on worst team in league, bottom low in coaching, roster construction, front office managment and with Felicio level players sharing floor make me chuckle.

Zach is twice player Middleton is. I really wish see Middleton how "well would he do it" on Bulls team. Likely just as good as lead Harrison Barnes Dallas team when he got paid. Even worse likely because Carlisle isnt bum coach and Dirk was still there to keep some kind of vet leadership in lockeroom.

harrison barnes? you just gave an example of a guy whose peak usage for the warriors was 17%. middleton's is 25% in milwaukee. he is not standing at the 3 pt line and feasting on open jumpers like barnes was. he is a big part of their offense

you must think nba coaches are real damn stupid for choosing middleton over lavine given that lavine is "twice the player", huh?

the bucks would still contending for the top of the eastern conference without giannis. and reason #1 would be khris middleton. real talk

who will you not see a lot of in this video? giannis:

Watch on YouTube

middleton is a better shooter than lavine. he is a better rebounder. he is a better passer. he is a significantly better defender. he is much smarter. lavine would have to be way, WAY better at SOMETHING to make him the better player. and i'm not talking about dunking ability. presumably some lavine homer would say "well zach's a much better first option as a scorer." well if that were the case, lavine's production when isolating against a defender would be much higher. but not even that is true:

lavine ISO last 2 seasons: 320 points over 344 possessions (0.93 PPP)
middleton last 3 seasons: 460 points over 469 possessions (0.98 PPP)

that doesn't even take passing into account. give middleton the ball and clear out and the results are likely to be better than doing the same w/ lavine

there is not a single notable facet of the game of basketball that lavine has an advantage in

[Dez]

When people comparing stats of A player on good team with all spacing and good players while still sharing floor with franchise player and B player on worst team in league, bottom low in coaching, roster construction, front office managment and with Felicio level players sharing floor make me chuckle.

Zach is twice player Middleton is. I really wish see Middleton how "well would he do it" on Bulls team. Likely just as good as lead Harrison Barnes Dallas team when he got paid. Even worse likely because Carlisle isnt bum coach and Dirk was still there to keep some kind of vet leadership in lockeroom.

harrison barnes? you just gave an example of a guy whose peak usage in golden state was 17%. middleton's is 25% in milwaukee. he is not standing at the 3 pt line and feasting on open jumpers like barnes was. he is a big part of their offense

you must think nba coaches are real damn stupid for choosing middleton over lavine given that lavine is "twice the player", huh?

the bucks would still contending for the top of the eastern conference without giannis. and reason #1 would be khris middleton. real talk

Saying things like this as if they are facts is just incredibly ridiculous.

[dice]

When people comparing stats of A player on good team with all spacing and good players while still sharing floor with franchise player and B player on worst team in league, bottom low in coaching, roster construction, front office managment and with Felicio level players sharing floor make me chuckle.

Zach is twice player Middleton is. I really wish see Middleton how "well would he do it" on Bulls team. Likely just as good as lead Harrison Barnes Dallas team when he got paid. Even worse likely because Carlisle isnt bum coach and Dirk was still there to keep some kind of vet leadership in lockeroom.

harrison barnes? you just gave an example of a guy whose peak usage in golden state was 17%. middleton's is 25% in milwaukee. he is not standing at the 3 pt line and feasting on open jumpers like barnes was. he is a big part of their offense

you must think nba coaches are real damn stupid for choosing middleton over lavine given that lavine is "twice the player", huh?

the bucks would still contending for the top of the eastern conference without giannis. and reason #1 would be khris middleton. real talk

Saying things like this as if they are facts is just incredibly ridiculous.

it's interesting that you chose to ignore the statement that "lavine is twice the player as middleton", which is far more ridiculous by any reasonable interpretation

biased much?

do you even disagree with the idea that middleton is the 2nd best player on the bucks? or do you disagree that they would be one of the top teams in the east w/o giannis? because neither is a particularly bold statement

[Andi Obst]

Zach is twice player Middleton is.

This is a joke, right?

[TheFinishSniper]

Zach is twice player Middleton is.

This is a joke, right?

Nope if I needed to pick player I wanted to put team around it wouldnt be Middleton 11/10 situations. He is good player when you already have a team. And good for him to make best out of it. Same as wouldnt have Klay Thompson. Sounds ridiculous but hey, if you think about it you know I am right.

I would always take Zach or Booker. We as people specialize in all professions including basketball into certain skillset to get better. Some people really become great in that specific area and it's not hard to become great when you others cover on others positions and help you with workload to become great in that area. And you have more energy, passion and attitude to do extra.

While most of arent that lucky and they basically need to carry entire department because others arent good enough, managment is bad, and they need to carry on their shoulders all that and still take blame for poorer results despite putting same or more effort. They cant focus on specific area to get great because they are dragged on all different sides, they cant do extra nor they have energy to afford to do it.


Yes Zach is twice player Middleton is.And in his prime in 3 years he will be thrice player Middleton is. As soon he gets out of this "#()=$"#()= of the franchise and gets actual respect for his game, something he actually deserves this year and did deserve since 2nd half of last year season.

[Andi Obst]

Nope if I needed to pick player I wanted to put team around it wouldnt be Middleton 11/10 situations. He is good player when you already have a team. And good for him to make best out of it. Same as wouldnt have Klay Thompson. Sounds ridiculous but hey, if you think about it you know I am right.

I would always take Zach or Booker. We as people specialize in all professions including basketball into certain skillset to get better. Some people really become great in that specific area and it's not hard to become great when you others cover on others positions and help you with workload to become great in that area. And you have more energy, passion and attitude to do extra.

While most of arent that lucky and they basically need to carry entire department because others arent good enough, managment is bad, and they need to carry on their shoulders all that and still take blame for poorer results despite putting same or more effort. They cant focus on specific area to get great because they are dragged on all different sides, they cant do extra nor they have energy to afford to do it.


Yes Zach is twice player Middleton is.And in his prime in 3 years he will be thrice player Middleton is. As soon he gets out of this "#()=$"#()= of the franchise and gets actual respect for his game, something he actually deserves this year and did deserve since 2nd half of last year season.

Other than the "management is bad part", I completely disagree with everything you said. Suggesting that it's somehow easy to become a player of Middleton's or even Klay's level just because they're on great teams is just crazy talk. Basically calling them one-dimensional specialists is just objectively wrong.

I'm not saying that you can build a contender around those guys, but you can't seriously tell me that you believe in Zach being that type of player.

[MrSparkle]

I take Middleton over Zach 5 out of 7 days of the week.

Zach is a highlight dunker and makes crazier contested 3Ps, definite advantages. So if I had a really good defensive team lacking a killer scorer (like the Sixers), then I’d take Zach.

But any other contender? Where you have a shotmaker like Curry, Lebron, Kawhi, Harden, Luka? What good is Zach? Those guys aren’t gonna let him dribble and chuck the last 3 minutes of every game. And Zach isn’t nearly as good as them as a ball-handler. Middleton is a much better #3 option in all those cases, which IMO is the caliber of both these guys. KM is a well-rounded player, Zach is an iso scoring specialist with lackluster vision.

[Lunartic]

Is it fair to say that Lavine is the new Devin Booker?

Poor defending, efficient shot jacker with a poor surrounding cast, being asked to be a playmaker with mixed results? Called a loser and chucker until he finally got a real PG and talented supporting cast.

Pre-Rubio/Oubre Booker averages in PT/Rbs/Asts and Ts% are almost identical to Lavine's this season.

[jordanwilliams6]

Is it fair to say that Lavine is the new Devin Booker?

Poor defending, efficient shot jacker with a poor surrounding cast, being asked to be a playmaker with mixed results? Called a loser and chucker until he finally got a real PG and talented supporting cast.

Pre-Rubio/Oubre Booker averages in PT/Rbs/Asts and Ts% are almost identical to Lavine's this season.

To be fair, Booker is a still a loser. I think his supporting cast is way better than the Bulls (given the availabilities) and they nearly have an identical record despite our injuries. It's probably not fair to judge them give Ayton's interrupted season.

[Lunartic]

Is it fair to say that Lavine is the new Devin Booker?

Poor defending, efficient shot jacker with a poor surrounding cast, being asked to be a playmaker with mixed results? Called a loser and chucker until he finally got a real PG and talented supporting cast.

Pre-Rubio/Oubre Booker averages in PT/Rbs/Asts and Ts% are almost identical to Lavine's this season.

To be fair, Booker is a still a loser. I think his supporting cast is way better than the Bulls (given the availabilities) and they nearly have an identical record despite our injuries. It's probably not fair to judge them give Ayton's interrupted season.

Would you trade Lavine for Booker straight up?

[PaKii94]

Is it fair to say that Lavine is the new Devin Booker?

Poor defending, efficient shot jacker with a poor surrounding cast, being asked to be a playmaker with mixed results? Called a loser and chucker until he finally got a real PG and talented supporting cast.

Pre-Rubio/Oubre Booker averages in PT/Rbs/Asts and Ts% are almost identical to Lavine's this season.

To be fair, Booker is a still a loser. I think his supporting cast is way better than the Bulls (given the availabilities) and they nearly have an identical record despite our injuries. It's probably not fair to judge them give Ayton's interrupted season.

Would you trade Lavine for Booker straight up?

Probably because Booker has a bit more advanced playmaking but they are nearly a wash in my eyes tbh. Then you factor in contract and it's easily Lavine>>Booker

[jordanwilliams6]

Is it fair to say that Lavine is the new Devin Booker?

Poor defending, efficient shot jacker with a poor surrounding cast, being asked to be a playmaker with mixed results? Called a loser and chucker until he finally got a real PG and talented supporting cast.

Pre-Rubio/Oubre Booker averages in PT/Rbs/Asts and Ts% are almost identical to Lavine's this season.

To be fair, Booker is a still a loser. I think his supporting cast is way better than the Bulls (given the availabilities) and they nearly have an identical record despite our injuries. It's probably not fair to judge them give Ayton's interrupted season.

Would you trade Lavine for Booker straight up?

As the other poster said below I wouldn't after factoring in contracts. Without contracts? It's a tough one but I would probably only just make the swap. It's very close though and I rate Booker highly. Perceptions of players tend to be way off when they play on winning/losing sides of basketball. Some players are just very lucky to fall into good situations with good coaches and culture (Tatum, Mitchell, Luka etc.)

[Lunartic]

To be fair, Booker is a still a loser. I think his supporting cast is way better than the Bulls (given the availabilities) and they nearly have an identical record despite our injuries. It's probably not fair to judge them give Ayton's interrupted season.

Would you trade Lavine for Booker straight up?

As the other poster said below I wouldn't after factoring in contracts. Without contracts? It's a tough one but I would probably only just make the swap. It's very close though and I rate Booker highly. Perceptions of players tend to be way off when they play on winning/losing sides of basketball. Some players are just very lucky to fall into good situations with good coaches and culture (Tatum, Mitchell, Luka etc.)

I think the above poster is right about Booker's playmaking being a bit more advanced, they don't have a big gap between this years Zach vs Booker in terms of Ast/TO rate. Zach is a much better finisher at the rim and waaay more athletic though.

Possibly one of the most even matchups in the NBA overall.

[dice]

:crazy:

I take Middleton over Zach 5 out of 7 days of the week.

Zach is a highlight dunker and makes crazier contested 3Ps, definite advantages. So if I had a really good defensive team lacking a killer scorer (like the Sixers), then I’d take Zach.

But any other contender? Where you have a shotmaker like Curry, Lebron, Kawhi, Harden, Luka? What good is Zach? Those guys aren’t gonna let him dribble and chuck the last 3 minutes of every game. And Zach isn’t nearly as good as them as a ball-handler. Middleton is a much better #3 option in all those cases, which IMO is the caliber of both these guys. KM is a well-rounded player, Zach is an iso scoring specialist with lackluster vision.

except that he's not very good at it. occasionally spectacular, usually middling

of the top 30 in the league in ISO possessions, zach ranks 26th in points per possession:

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&sort=PPP&dir=1&CF=POSS*GE*90

the simple reality is that having zach lavine run your offense is a recipe for mediocrity. as i pointed out in an above post, middleton has had more success in that role. he just doesn't find himself in that role as often

[darmani]

Would you trade Lavine for Booker straight up?

As the other poster said below I wouldn't after factoring in contracts. Without contracts? It's a tough one but I would probably only just make the swap. It's very close though and I rate Booker highly. Perceptions of players tend to be way off when they play on winning/losing sides of basketball. Some players are just very lucky to fall into good situations with good coaches and culture (Tatum, Mitchell, Luka etc.)

I think the above poster is right about Booker's playmaking being a bit more advanced, they don't have a big gap between this years Zach vs Booker in terms of Ast/TO rate. Zach is a much better finisher at the rim and waaay more athletic though.

Possibly one of the most even matchups in the NBA overall.

You've never seen Booker play, have you? Booker's finishing inside is elite.

FG% in the restricted area:

Booker 70.9%
LeBron 67.1%
league average 63.1%
LaVine 59.4%

[Lunartic]

As the other poster said below I wouldn't after factoring in contracts. Without contracts? It's a tough one but I would probably only just make the swap. It's very close though and I rate Booker highly. Perceptions of players tend to be way off when they play on winning/losing sides of basketball. Some players are just very lucky to fall into good situations with good coaches and culture (Tatum, Mitchell, Luka etc.)

I think the above poster is right about Booker's playmaking being a bit more advanced, they don't have a big gap between this years Zach vs Booker in terms of Ast/TO rate. Zach is a much better finisher at the rim and waaay more athletic though.

Possibly one of the most even matchups in the NBA overall.

You've never seen Booker play, have you? Booker's finishing inside is elite.

FG% in the restricted area:

Booker 70.9%
LeBron 67.1%
league average 63.1%
LaVine 59.4%

No, admittedly I was looking at 0-3 feet FG% on BBref-- good point. I do watch quite a bit of Booker and the Suns, I pretty surprised he's that good.

Appreciate the correction