Around The NBA : 2024-25 Season

[Chi town]

Davion Mitchell is good.

I think Tre Jones is better.

Davion has improved and confidence is a helluva drug but he’s not as good as he’s playing.

[sco]

Davion Mitchell is good.

I think Tre Jones is better.

Davion has improved and confidence is a helluva drug but he’s not as good as he’s playing.

I really want Tre Jones back. He's what I wanted Ayo to become (but didn't).

[Chi town]

Davion Mitchell is good.

I think Tre Jones is better.

Davion has improved and confidence is a helluva drug but he’s not as good as he’s playing.

I really want Tre Jones back. He's what I wanted Ayo to become (but didn't).

He looked a much better fit than Ayo when he played but his career thus far suggests he’s not as good as he played for us. Maybe he’s the perfect fit hence the boost or he needed a ch age of scenery.

[DASMACKDOWN]

But Pat doesn't care. And there's a certain strength than comes from playing at a franchise that will never, ever, ever stop trying to win. Always. Every game. That strength shows up in the post-season.

So with this, my guess is you are not as mad at AK as most fans are.

But I did point out that Miami is a perpetual mid team because they keep overachieving.

I would say their scouting and development in their system/culture is elite.
Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, Caleb Martin, etc. were all high impactful heat players, but as soon as they left, they get exposed as being just another guy.
So, in so many ways, their "culture" is their biggest strength but also their biggest hindrance.

The only caveat is they are one of the few "destination" teams that star players would consider first. So they also have that option to at least lure those types of players.

As it pertains to us, I think for the first time since the Thibs years, we finally found an identity. I think that needs to be high consideration of players that fit that vision. That is how you get better.

[Infinity2152]

But Pat doesn't care. And there's a certain strength than comes from playing at a franchise that will never, ever, ever stop trying to win. Always. Every game. That strength shows up in the post-season.

So with this, my guess is you are not as mad at AK as most fans are.

But I did point out that Miami is a perpetual mid team because they keep overachieving.

I would say their scouting and development in their system/culture is elite.
Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, Caleb Martin, etc. were all high impactful heat players, but as soon as they left, they get exposed as being just another guy.
So, in so many ways, their "culture" is their biggest strength but also their biggest hindrance.

The only caveat is they are one of the few "destination" teams that star players would consider first. So they also have that option to at least lure those types of players.

As it pertains to us, I think for the first time since the Thibs years, we finally found an identity. I think that needs to be high consideration of players that fit that vision. That is how you get better.

Butler joined the Heat in 2019. Same year Tyler Herro was drafted. Since then they haven't added a significant free agent or trade until Butler trade. Despite them supposedly being a destination, doesn't seem like players want to go there. Former players who did stints with the Heat say it's the strictest organization in the league. This is what happens after you get a top tier player and keep trying to build through the draft. Think that's their biggest mistake, should have used Herro/picks/fillers to put a star next to Jimmy and Bam. Or worked much harder to add another star in 2019 or 2020 when Bam and Herro were both on rookie contracts.

2019 they were paying Dragic 19.2 mill, Iguadola 17.1 mill, Solomon Hill $12.8 mill, Olynk $12.7 mill and Meyers Leonard $11.6 mill. This is when Jimmy's on a max contract at only $32.7 mill. They could have easily traded for a max or near max player. Bam and Herro on rookie contracts totaling $7 mill. Heat stayed a mid team because of bad resource management, same as the Bulls.

Assuming our 2025 or 2026 pick are near as good as Herro or Bam (big assumption) and we add a star through trade like Zion this summer or this season, we're pretty much in the same boat. Zion's at $39 mill next year, he's not even top 20 in salary. Giddey at $30 mill won't be top 30. Perfect time to add another star or really fil out the team while Matas and the high end rookie are on rookie contracts, or miss the window. This of course assumes Coby is traded in that first star trade.

[2weekswithpay]

But Pat doesn't care. And there's a certain strength than comes from playing at a franchise that will never, ever, ever stop trying to win. Always. Every game. That strength shows up in the post-season.

So with this, my guess is you are not as mad at AK as most fans are.

But I did point out that Miami is a perpetual mid team because they keep overachieving.

I would say their scouting and development in their system/culture is elite.
Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, Caleb Martin, etc. were all high impactful heat players, but as soon as they left, they get exposed as being just another guy.
So, in so many ways, their "culture" is their biggest strength but also their biggest hindrance.

The only caveat is they are one of the few "destination" teams that star players would consider first. So they also have that option to at least lure those types of players.

As it pertains to us, I think for the first time since the Thibs years, we finally found an identity. I think that needs to be high consideration of players that fit that vision. That is how you get better.

Butler joined the Heat in 2019. Same year Tyler Herro was drafted. Since then they haven't added a significant free agent or trade until Butler trade. Despite them supposedly being a destination, doesn't seem like players want to go there. Former players who did stints with the Heat say it's the strictest organization in the league. This is what happens after you get a top tier player and keep trying to build through the draft. Think that's their biggest mistake, should have used Herro/picks/fillers to put a star next to Jimmy and Bam. Or worked much harder to add another star in 2019 or 2020 when Bam and Herro were both on rookie contracts.

2019 they were paying Dragic 19.2 mill, Iguadola 17.1 mill, Solomon Hill $12.8 mill, Olynk $12.7 mill and Meyers Leonard $11.6 mill. This is wwen Jimmy's on a max contract at only $32.7 mill. They could have easily traded for a max or near max player. Bam and Herro on rookie contracts totaling $7 mill.

Does Dame not count? He clearly wanted to go there, but the Blazers didn't like any of the Heat's offers.

[Infinity2152]

So with this, my guess is you are not as mad at AK as most fans are.

But I did point out that Miami is a perpetual mid team because they keep overachieving.

I would say their scouting and development in their system/culture is elite.
Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, Caleb Martin, etc. were all high impactful heat players, but as soon as they left, they get exposed as being just another guy.
So, in so many ways, their "culture" is their biggest strength but also their biggest hindrance.

The only caveat is they are one of the few "destination" teams that star players would consider first. So they also have that option to at least lure those types of players.

As it pertains to us, I think for the first time since the Thibs years, we finally found an identity. I think that needs to be high consideration of players that fit that vision. That is how you get better.

Butler joined the Heat in 2019. Same year Tyler Herro was drafted. Since then they haven't added a significant free agent or trade until Butler trade. Despite them supposedly being a destination, doesn't seem like players want to go there. Former players who did stints with the Heat say it's the strictest organization in the league. This is what happens after you get a top tier player and keep trying to build through the draft. Think that's their biggest mistake, should have used Herro/picks/fillers to put a star next to Jimmy and Bam. Or worked much harder to add another star in 2019 or 2020 when Bam and Herro were both on rookie contracts.

2019 they were paying Dragic 19.2 mill, Iguadola 17.1 mill, Solomon Hill $12.8 mill, Olynk $12.7 mill and Meyers Leonard $11.6 mill. This is wwen Jimmy's on a max contract at only $32.7 mill. They could have easily traded for a max or near max player. Bam and Herro on rookie contracts totaling $7 mill.

Does Dame not count? He clearly wanted to go there, but the Blazers didn't like any of the Heat's offers.

Ok, we can count Dame. Point remains, they had a window to add real free agent/trade talent to Butler at $30 mill, and Bam and Herro at $7 mill combined. All three for $37 mill, and they couldn't put a good enough team around them. With Dame, wasn't Bucks offer better than Miami's anyway? Turned around and flipped Jrue for even more assets. Maybe Miami adds more picks/talent and we're looking at Dame, Butler, Bam as the core right now.

Like us. Right now, say we sign Giddey to $30 mill. We have Matas on rookie. Coby at $12 mill. We have 2025 lottery player on rookie, we have 2026 on rookie incoming. We have Smith at 9.4 in 2026, solid backup, maybe starter. We have Ball's contract, which I think is a great deal. Pat Will is our only bad contract at $18 mill. Multiple huge expirings. All our own picks. We're in a great place in terms of financial flexibility and trade pieces, but it's a window.

How about this, new plan. Screw getting random future protected firsts for Coby. Coby goes for a good $25-30 mill player this off season or before the deadline, but Pat Williams has to be included. For a player that fits our needs (Zion, S&T Naz Reid maybe plus protected pick, etc). If the T Wolves are seriously trying to decide if it's worth it to re-sign Reid and Randle, could Coby White plus Pat Williams look good?

[2weekswithpay]

Butler joined the Heat in 2019. Same year Tyler Herro was drafted. Since then they haven't added a significant free agent or trade until Butler trade. Despite them supposedly being a destination, doesn't seem like players want to go there. Former players who did stints with the Heat say it's the strictest organization in the league. This is what happens after you get a top tier player and keep trying to build through the draft. Think that's their biggest mistake, should have used Herro/picks/fillers to put a star next to Jimmy and Bam. Or worked much harder to add another star in 2019 or 2020 when Bam and Herro were both on rookie contracts.

2019 they were paying Dragic 19.2 mill, Iguadola 17.1 mill, Solomon Hill $12.8 mill, Olynk $12.7 mill and Meyers Leonard $11.6 mill. This is wwen Jimmy's on a max contract at only $32.7 mill. They could have easily traded for a max or near max player. Bam and Herro on rookie contracts totaling $7 mill.

Does Dame not count? He clearly wanted to go there, but the Blazers didn't like any of the Heat's offers.

Ok, we can count Dame. Point remains, they had a window to add real free agent/trade talent to Butler at $30 mill, and Bam and Herro at $7 mill combined. All three for $37 mill, and they couldn't put a good enough team around them.

Like us. Right now, say we sign Giddey to $30 mill. We have Matas on rookie. Coby at $12 mill. We have 2025 lottery player on rookie, we have 2026 on rookie incoming. We have Smith at 9.4 in 2026, solid backup, maybe starter. We have Ball's contract, which I think is a great deal. Pat Will is our only bad contract at $18 mill. Multiple huge expirings. All our own picks. We're in a great place in terms of financial flexibility and trade pieces, but it's a window.

How about this, new plan. Screw getting random future protected firsts for Coby. Coby goes for a good $25-30 mill player this off season or before the deadline, but Pat Williams has to be included. For a player that fits our needs (Zion, S&T Naz Reid maybe plus protected pick, etc). If the T Wolves are seriously trying to decide if it's worth it to re-sign Reid and Randle, could Coby White plus Pat Williams look good?

I agree with that, but I do think stars want to go there. The Heat just didn't have the assets for a trade, and stars aren't changing teams through free agency anymore.

Read on Twitter

Pat is a negative asset. Attaching him to Coby kills the trade.

[Infinity2152]

Does Dame not count? He clearly wanted to go there, but the Blazers didn't like any of the Heat's offers.

Ok, we can count Dame. Point remains, they had a window to add real free agent/trade talent to Butler at $30 mill, and Bam and Herro at $7 mill combined. All three for $37 mill, and they couldn't put a good enough team around them.

Like us. Right now, say we sign Giddey to $30 mill. We have Matas on rookie. Coby at $12 mill. We have 2025 lottery player on rookie, we have 2026 on rookie incoming. We have Smith at 9.4 in 2026, solid backup, maybe starter. We have Ball's contract, which I think is a great deal. Pat Will is our only bad contract at $18 mill. Multiple huge expirings. All our own picks. We're in a great place in terms of financial flexibility and trade pieces, but it's a window.

How about this, new plan. Screw getting random future protected firsts for Coby. Coby goes for a good $25-30 mill player this off season or before the deadline, but Pat Williams has to be included. For a player that fits our needs (Zion, S&T Naz Reid maybe plus protected pick, etc). If the T Wolves are seriously trying to decide if it's worth it to re-sign Reid and Randle, could Coby White plus Pat Williams look good?

I agree with that, but I do think stars want to go there. The Heat just didn't have the assets for a trade, and stars aren't changing teams through free agency anymore.

Read on Twitter

Pat is a negative asset. Attaching him to Coby kills the trade.

Ok, let's grant that players want to go there. That makes their failure to add one even worse. They have had a ton of trade assets, saying they didn't have the assets is wrong. Heat have/had Butler, Herro, Bam, Nikola Jovic, Jaime Jaquez, Ke' el Ware, Alec Burks plus a ton of picks just this year alone. Pretty much all of that last year. There aren't too many stars they don't have the assets to trade for. Add a pick or young player to most of those trades they were turned down for, and the trade happens. It's Miami's decision not to offer enough or value their players so high they can't make those trades, not lack of resources. The teams that did get the stars you listed paid very high prices to get them, but Heat probably could have matched or beat those offers if they wanted to.

Pat being a negative asset is kind of the point. Say a team wants to trade for Coby with the intention to re-sign him. Their expectation of his re-sign cost is $30 mill AAV. They have a $20-$35 mill dollar player roughly equivalent to Coby they are willing to move. Right now, Coby at $12 mill should be worth more than an equivalent player at $30 mill. There's an immediate cap savings of $18 mill for this year alone. But they have Pat for $18 mill. Whatever contributions they get for Pat in year 1 is basically free money. Because Coby's contributions replace the $30 mill player that left.

Whatever player we get would almost certainly be older than Coby, another Bulls advantage in the trade. If you want me to trade you an equivalent, younger player on a cheaper contract without sending me picks, you have to take a bad contract. Wouldn't necessarily be 1 for 1 trade either, example could be Coby/Pat for Kuzma ($22 mill)/ filler. Coby/Pat for John Collins (26.5 mill)/filler. Coby/Pat/Collins, picks for Zion/filler. Plus every team may not see a 23 year old good defense, good shooting SF who's never played at SF as forever damaged goods and forever negative.

[2weekswithpay]

Ok, we can count Dame. Point remains, they had a window to add real free agent/trade talent to Butler at $30 mill, and Bam and Herro at $7 mill combined. All three for $37 mill, and they couldn't put a good enough team around them.

Like us. Right now, say we sign Giddey to $30 mill. We have Matas on rookie. Coby at $12 mill. We have 2025 lottery player on rookie, we have 2026 on rookie incoming. We have Smith at 9.4 in 2026, solid backup, maybe starter. We have Ball's contract, which I think is a great deal. Pat Will is our only bad contract at $18 mill. Multiple huge expirings. All our own picks. We're in a great place in terms of financial flexibility and trade pieces, but it's a window.

How about this, new plan. Screw getting random future protected firsts for Coby. Coby goes for a good $25-30 mill player this off season or before the deadline, but Pat Williams has to be included. For a player that fits our needs (Zion, S&T Naz Reid maybe plus protected pick, etc). If the T Wolves are seriously trying to decide if it's worth it to re-sign Reid and Randle, could Coby White plus Pat Williams look good?

I agree with that, but I do think stars want to go there. The Heat just didn't have the assets for a trade, and stars aren't changing teams through free agency anymore.

Read on Twitter

Pat is a negative asset. Attaching him to Coby kills the trade.

Ok, let's grant that players want to go there. That makes their failure to add one even worse. They have had a ton of trade assets, saying they didn't have the assets is wrong. Heat have/had Butler, Herro, Bam, Nikola Jovic, Jaime Jaquez, Ke' el Ware, Alec Burks plus a ton of picks just this year alone. Pretty much all of that last year. There aren't too many stars they don't have the assets to trade for. Add a pick or young player to most of those trades they were turned down for, and the trade happens. It's Miami's decision not to offer enough or value their players so high they can't make those trades, not lack of resources. The teams that did get the stars you listed paid very high prices to get them, but Heat probably could have matched or beat those offers if they wanted to.

Pat being a negative asset is kind of the point. Say a team wants to trade for Coby with the intention to re-sign him. Their expectation of his re-sign cost is $30 mill AAV. They have a $20-$35 mill dollar player roughly equivalent to Coby they are willing to move. Right now, Coby at $12 mill should be worth more than an equivalent player at $30 mill. There's an immediate cap savings of $18 mill for this year alone. But they have Pat for $18 mill. Whatever contributions they get for Pat in year 1 is basically free money. Because Coby's contributions replace the $30 mill player that left.

Whatever player we get would almost certainly be older than Coby, another Bulls advantage in the trade. If you want me to trade you an equivalent, younger player on a cheaper contract without sending me picks, you have to take a bad contract. Wouldn't necessarily be 1 for 1 trade either, example could be Coby/Pat for Kuzma ($22 mill)/ filler. Coby/Pat for John Collins (26.5 mill)/filler. Coby/Pat/Collins, picks for Zion/filler. Plus every team may not see a 23 year old good defense, good shooting SF who's never played at SF as forever damaged goods and forever negative.

They aren't trading Butler or Bam. No point in trading for a star if you have to give up one of them. They also never had a ton of picks to trade. When Dame was available, they could only trade 2 FRPs. When the Heat traded for Butler, they gave up a 2023 FRP to get him. At the time, they had already traded away their 2021 pick for Dragic. They managed to get their 2023 pick (Jaquez) back in return, OKC got their 2024 FRP lottery protected until 2026.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

The Stepien rule prevented them from offering more than 2 FRPs for Dame, and the Blazers weren't interested in Herro. Alec Bruks has no trade value, and Jovic was picked near the end of the first round. One, I think you're overrating the Heat's young players. Two, they've never had all their picks available for trade. They have Ware now, but they didn't have him when Dame wanted out. They couldn't beat what the Cavs offered for Mitchell unless they trade Butler or Bam, but they aren't doing that.

Coby is currently being paid 12M. I only need to send 12M to trade for him, or I could use the MLE to trade for him as well. Why am I trading 30M in salary and taking back Pat when I don't need to? Pat loses you games, it isn't free money.

[Infinity2152]

I agree with that, but I do think stars want to go there. The Heat just didn't have the assets for a trade, and stars aren't changing teams through free agency anymore.

Read on Twitter

Pat is a negative asset. Attaching him to Coby kills the trade.

Ok, let's grant that players want to go there. That makes their failure to add one even worse. They have had a ton of trade assets, saying they didn't have the assets is wrong. Heat have/had Butler, Herro, Bam, Nikola Jovic, Jaime Jaquez, Ke' el Ware, Alec Burks plus a ton of picks just this year alone. Pretty much all of that last year. There aren't too many stars they don't have the assets to trade for. Add a pick or young player to most of those trades they were turned down for, and the trade happens. It's Miami's decision not to offer enough or value their players so high they can't make those trades, not lack of resources. The teams that did get the stars you listed paid very high prices to get them, but Heat probably could have matched or beat those offers if they wanted to.

Pat being a negative asset is kind of the point. Say a team wants to trade for Coby with the intention to re-sign him. Their expectation of his re-sign cost is $30 mill AAV. They have a $20-$35 mill dollar player roughly equivalent to Coby they are willing to move. Right now, Coby at $12 mill should be worth more than an equivalent player at $30 mill. There's an immediate cap savings of $18 mill for this year alone. But they have Pat for $18 mill. Whatever contributions they get for Pat in year 1 is basically free money. Because Coby's contributions replace the $30 mill player that left.

Whatever player we get would almost certainly be older than Coby, another Bulls advantage in the trade. If you want me to trade you an equivalent, younger player on a cheaper contract without sending me picks, you have to take a bad contract. Wouldn't necessarily be 1 for 1 trade either, example could be Coby/Pat for Kuzma ($22 mill)/ filler. Coby/Pat for John Collins (26.5 mill)/filler. Coby/Pat/Collins, picks for Zion/filler. Plus every team may not see a 23 year old good defense, good shooting SF who's never played at SF as forever damaged goods and forever negative.

They aren't trading Butler or Bam. No point in trading for a star if you have to give up one of them. They also never had a ton of picks to trade. When Dame was available, they could only trade 2 FRPs. When the Heat traded for Butler, they gave up a 2023 FRP to get him. At the time, they had already traded away their 2021 pick for Dragic. They managed to get their 2023 pick (Jaquez) back in return, OKC got their 2024 FRP lottery protected until 2026.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

The Stepien rule prevented them from offering more than 2 FRPs for Dame, and the Blazers weren't interested in Herro. Alec Bruks has no trade value, and Jovic was picked near the end of the first round. One, I think you're overrating the Heat's young players. Two, they've never had all their picks available for trade. They have Ware now, but they didn't have him when Dame wanted out. They couldn't beat what the Cavs offered for Mitchell unless they trade Butler or Bam, but they aren't doing that.

Coby is currently being paid 12M. I only need to send 12M to trade for him, or I could use the MLE to trade for him as well. Why am I trading 30M in salary and taking back Pat when I don't need to? Pat loses you games, it isn't free money.

Nobody's saying they had to trade Butler or Bam. Although the thought that either is untradeable to get a better star, that's a personal opinion. Also your opinion the Heat young players have low trade value. Over the last few years, I've seen a lot of high praise and trade value from many media pundits on Jovic, Ke' el Ware, and jaquez. I'm using Ware now, could use Caleb Martin, when he had good trade value instead or other players. Tyler Herro is a high value trade asset. Heat had first round picks in 2020, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2028, 2029, 2030. They missed one pick. Plus they could have traded one or two of the young players for additional picks, if the receiving team doesn't want the player(s).

The Dame trade is specific to they didn't want Herro. Guess what, the Spurs didn't want Zach. They got De Aaron Fox, and Zach went to the Kings. Figure out a three way. Don't know how the Stepian rule would prevent them from offering more picks for Dame when you can trade picks 7 years out.

Are you arguing the Heat missed on four star trades because Tyler Herro, expiring contracts, young players like Jovic, Precious Achuiwa, and multiple firsts aren't enough? Not just talking about the Dame trade, Butler's been there since 2019 and they've added NOBODY good. Skip superstars, not one Jaren Jackson, Brandon Ingram level player. Not even talking about adding a superstar, they should be able to add a Wiggins/Tobias Harris player without trading Herro, Bam or Butler over 5 years, two of which Bam, Herro and Jimmy combined for $37 mill.

How about this. All four want to come to the Bulls. We have similar assets to Miami. Are you excusing AK for missing on all four trades? Re-signing Duncan Robinson to 5 yrs/$90 mill in 2021 is one of the main reasons Heat haven't been able to add another star, and that's a decision they made. They offered Caleb Martin 5 yrs/$65 mill just last year, luckily for them he turned it down. He settled a week later for 4 years/$32 mill from the 76'ers. Their star forced his way out. Jimmy played for the Bulls for years, never forced his way out. Their management isn't all that. Coaching and staff is outstanding.

[Chi town]

Pistons with Ivey next year are going to be dangerous. Prob 3rd best team.

[Infinity2152]

Pistons with Ivey next year are going to be dangerous. Prob 3rd best team.

They do look surprisingly good. In a great cap situation too, with a lot of flexibility with how they move this summer. Could be a very different team in 2026, Shroeder, HardawayJr. , Beasley and Reed are free agents this summer and they have to pay Duren and Jaden Ivey next summer, plus Harris is 34 looking for a new contract.

[Chi town]

Pistons with Ivey next year are going to be dangerous. Prob 3rd best team.

They do look surprisingly good. In a great cap situation too, with a lot of flexibility with how they move this summer. Could be a very different team in 2026, Shroeder, HardawayJr. , Beasley and Reed are free agents this summer and they have to pay Duren and Jaden Ivey next summer, plus Harris is 34 looking for a new contract.

I think Beasley and THJ will come back on fair deals and they can easily upgrade Harris.

[Infinity2152]

Pistons with Ivey next year are going to be dangerous. Prob 3rd best team.

They do look surprisingly good. In a great cap situation too, with a lot of flexibility with how they move this summer. Could be a very different team in 2026, Shroeder, HardawayJr. , Beasley and Reed are free agents this summer and they have to pay Duren and Jaden Ivey next summer, plus Harris is 34 looking for a new contract.

I think Beasley and THJ will come back on fair deals and they can easily upgrade Harris.

But what's a fair deal for Beasley and THJ in real numbers, and how much does an upgrade to Harris cost? Harris is a good player, not easy to just upgrade there. An upgrade probably cost upwards of $30 mil as a free agent. Beasley in particular, I think there's a wide range as to what he could get if he plays well in these playoffs. He averaged 16 pts in 28 minutes, shooting 42% from three this season. $20-25 mill possible?

[2weekswithpay]

Ok, let's grant that players want to go there. That makes their failure to add one even worse. They have had a ton of trade assets, saying they didn't have the assets is wrong. Heat have/had Butler, Herro, Bam, Nikola Jovic, Jaime Jaquez, Ke' el Ware, Alec Burks plus a ton of picks just this year alone. Pretty much all of that last year. There aren't too many stars they don't have the assets to trade for. Add a pick or young player to most of those trades they were turned down for, and the trade happens. It's Miami's decision not to offer enough or value their players so high they can't make those trades, not lack of resources. The teams that did get the stars you listed paid very high prices to get them, but Heat probably could have matched or beat those offers if they wanted to.

Pat being a negative asset is kind of the point. Say a team wants to trade for Coby with the intention to re-sign him. Their expectation of his re-sign cost is $30 mill AAV. They have a $20-$35 mill dollar player roughly equivalent to Coby they are willing to move. Right now, Coby at $12 mill should be worth more than an equivalent player at $30 mill. There's an immediate cap savings of $18 mill for this year alone. But they have Pat for $18 mill. Whatever contributions they get for Pat in year 1 is basically free money. Because Coby's contributions replace the $30 mill player that left.

Whatever player we get would almost certainly be older than Coby, another Bulls advantage in the trade. If you want me to trade you an equivalent, younger player on a cheaper contract without sending me picks, you have to take a bad contract. Wouldn't necessarily be 1 for 1 trade either, example could be Coby/Pat for Kuzma ($22 mill)/ filler. Coby/Pat for John Collins (26.5 mill)/filler. Coby/Pat/Collins, picks for Zion/filler. Plus every team may not see a 23 year old good defense, good shooting SF who's never played at SF as forever damaged goods and forever negative.

They aren't trading Butler or Bam. No point in trading for a star if you have to give up one of them. They also never had a ton of picks to trade. When Dame was available, they could only trade 2 FRPs. When the Heat traded for Butler, they gave up a 2023 FRP to get him. At the time, they had already traded away their 2021 pick for Dragic. They managed to get their 2023 pick (Jaquez) back in return, OKC got their 2024 FRP lottery protected until 2026.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

The Stepien rule prevented them from offering more than 2 FRPs for Dame, and the Blazers weren't interested in Herro. Alec Bruks has no trade value, and Jovic was picked near the end of the first round. One, I think you're overrating the Heat's young players. Two, they've never had all their picks available for trade. They have Ware now, but they didn't have him when Dame wanted out. They couldn't beat what the Cavs offered for Mitchell unless they trade Butler or Bam, but they aren't doing that.

Coby is currently being paid 12M. I only need to send 12M to trade for him, or I could use the MLE to trade for him as well. Why am I trading 30M in salary and taking back Pat when I don't need to? Pat loses you games, it isn't free money.

Nobody's saying they had to trade Butler or Bam. Although the thought that either is untradeable to get a better star, that's a personal opinion. Also your opinion the Heat young players have low trade value. Over the last few years, I've seen a lot of high praise and trade value from many media pundits on Jovic, Ke' el Ware, and jaquez. I'm using Ware now, could use Caleb Martin, when he had good trade value instead or other players. Tyler Herro is a high value trade asset. Heat had first round picks in 2020, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2028, 2029, 2030. They missed one pick.

The Dame trade is specific to they didn't want Herro. Guess what, the Spurs didn't want Zach. They got De Aaron Fox, and Zach went to the Kings. Figure out a three way. Don't know how the Stepian rule would prevent them from offering more picks for Dame when you can trade picks 7 years out.

Are you arguing the Heat missed on four star trades because Tyler Herro, expiring contracts, young players like Jovic, Precious Achuiwa, and multiple firsts aren't enough? Not just talking about the Dame trade, Butler's been there since 2019 and they've added NOBODY good. Skip superstars, not one Jaren Jackson, Brandon Ingram level player. Not even talking about adding a superstar, they should be able to add a Wiggins/Tobias Harris player without trading Herro, Bam or Butler over 5 years, two of which Bam, Herro and Jimmy combined for $37 mill.

How about this. All four want to come to the Bulls. We have similar assets to Miami. Are you excusing AK for missing on all four trades?

You brought Jimmy and Bam up as assets. If they aren't available for trade, then they shouldn't be included.

They have had a ton of trade assets, saying they didn't have the assets is wrong. Heat have/had Butler, Herro, Bam,

Ware has been praised. Jovic, I doubt that. Who in the national media is paying attention to Jovic? When Dame asked out Jovic had played 15 games total. Calen Martin was 27 years old when he had that amazing playoff run for the Heat, he wasn't a young asset. The Stepien rule prevents you from trading first round picks in back-to-back seasons. Of those picks you listed, how many were they capable of trading? They traded 2019 and 2023/2024 were also traded when they got Butler. You can't trade picks that fall under protections, and you can't trade back to back first round picks. The number of picks they could trade was limited to 2-3.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

I'm saying that the Heat didn't have enough assets to get Mitchell or KD. The Suns and Cavs offered way more than the Heat could without including Bam or Butler, and trading one of those two would defeat the purpose of getting a star. KD got traded for Cam Johnson, Bridges, and 4 FRPs. Mitchell was for 3 FRPs, 2 swaps, Lauri, Sexton, and Ochai Agbaji, who was just drafted. The Heat aren't beating these offers.

The Blazers weren't interested in the Heat's offer for Dame.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

The 4th star Beal wouldn't waive his no trade clause, and honestly, Riley made the right call here.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Jaren Jackson and most young players like him aren't on the market. Dude won DPOY, he ain't getting traded. They tried with Terry Rozier who was probably overrated, but it didn't work out. The Heat do trade for role players like Wiggins/Harris.

Yeah. The only trade I'd be mad at would be not getting Lillard. The Cavs and Suns offered more than we could and screw Beal and his no trade clause.

[Infinity2152]

They aren't trading Butler or Bam. No point in trading for a star if you have to give up one of them. They also never had a ton of picks to trade. When Dame was available, they could only trade 2 FRPs. When the Heat traded for Butler, they gave up a 2023 FRP to get him. At the time, they had already traded away their 2021 pick for Dragic. They managed to get their 2023 pick (Jaquez) back in return, OKC got their 2024 FRP lottery protected until 2026.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

The Stepien rule prevented them from offering more than 2 FRPs for Dame, and the Blazers weren't interested in Herro. Alec Bruks has no trade value, and Jovic was picked near the end of the first round. One, I think you're overrating the Heat's young players. Two, they've never had all their picks available for trade. They have Ware now, but they didn't have him when Dame wanted out. They couldn't beat what the Cavs offered for Mitchell unless they trade Butler or Bam, but they aren't doing that.

Coby is currently being paid 12M. I only need to send 12M to trade for him, or I could use the MLE to trade for him as well. Why am I trading 30M in salary and taking back Pat when I don't need to? Pat loses you games, it isn't free money.

Nobody's saying they had to trade Butler or Bam. Although the thought that either is untradeable to get a better star, that's a personal opinion. Also your opinion the Heat young players have low trade value. Over the last few years, I've seen a lot of high praise and trade value from many media pundits on Jovic, Ke' el Ware, and jaquez. I'm using Ware now, could use Caleb Martin, when he had good trade value instead or other players. Tyler Herro is a high value trade asset. Heat had first round picks in 2020, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2028, 2029, 2030. They missed one pick.

The Dame trade is specific to they didn't want Herro. Guess what, the Spurs didn't want Zach. They got De Aaron Fox, and Zach went to the Kings. Figure out a three way. Don't know how the Stepian rule would prevent them from offering more picks for Dame when you can trade picks 7 years out.

Are you arguing the Heat missed on four star trades because Tyler Herro, expiring contracts, young players like Jovic, Precious Achuiwa, and multiple firsts aren't enough? Not just talking about the Dame trade, Butler's been there since 2019 and they've added NOBODY good. Skip superstars, not one Jaren Jackson, Brandon Ingram level player. Not even talking about adding a superstar, they should be able to add a Wiggins/Tobias Harris player without trading Herro, Bam or Butler over 5 years, two of which Bam, Herro and Jimmy combined for $37 mill.

How about this. All four want to come to the Bulls. We have similar assets to Miami. Are you excusing AK for missing on all four trades?

You brought Jimmy and Bam up as assets. If they aren't available for trade, then they shouldn't be included.

They have had a ton of trade assets, saying they didn't have the assets is wrong. Heat have/had Butler, Herro, Bam,

Ware has been praised. Jovic, I doubt that. Who in the national media is paying attention to Jovic? When Dame asked out Jovic had played 15 games total. Calen Martin was 27 years old when he had that amazing playoff run for the Heat, he wasn't a young asset. The Stepien rule prevents you from trading first round picks in back-to-back seasons. Of those picks you listed, how many were they capable of trading? They traded 2019 and 2023/2024 were also traded when they got Butler. You can't trade picks that fall under protections, and you can't trade back to back first round picks. The number of picks they could trade was limited to 2-3.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

I'm saying that the Heat didn't have enough assets to get Mitchell or KD. The Suns and Cavs offered way more than the Heat could without including Bam or Butler, and trading one of those two would defeat the purpose of getting a star. KD got traded for Cam Johnson, Bridges, and 4 FRPs. Mitchell was for 3 FRPs, 2 swaps, Lauri, Sexton, and Ochai Agbaji, who was just drafted. The Heat aren't beating these offers.

The Blazers weren't interested in the Heat's offer for Dame.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

The 4th star Beal wouldn't waive his no trade clause, and honestly, Riley made the right call here.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Jaren Jackson and most young players like him aren't on the market. Dude won DPOY, he ain't getting traded. They tried with Terry Rozier who was probably overrated, but it didn't work out. The Heat do trade for role players like Wiggins/Harris.

Yeah. The only trade I'd be mad at would be not getting Lillard. The Cavs and Suns offered more than we could and screw Beal and his no trade clause.

Jimmy and Bam are included if you're trying to put three stars together. You guys are missing the entire point. We're talking over a 5 year period. In two of those years, they had Jimmy, Bam, Herro for $37 mill. They could have used EITHER one of the three to upgrade. If I can work a deal including Bam to get Embid, let's go. I'm working a trade for Durant and I include Bam, but 2021 Durant and 2021 Bam. They could have upgraded Herro or Bam and kept Jimmy. He's a number 1. Or add another high level $20-$30 mill star level player wothout moving either.

The 4 deals we're talking about aren't even the only star trades they could have made over that time period. I use Jimmy in a trade for Luka and I have Luka, Herro, Bam. None of those three are even close to untradable or the best at their positions. They've had three very good players at SG, SF, and center for 5 years. Maybe best coach in the league. They didn't need a superstar, I use Dame, KD, Jaren Jackson as an upper level, there have been tons of good PF's and point guards who have moved around the last five years. They don't give Duncan Robinson that 5 years/90 mill, who could they have gotten since 2021?

To be honest, even just using the 4 mentioned, at various points over the last 5 years, Donovan Mitchell, Kevin Durant and Dame Lillard at least have been considered higher value than any of Butler, Herro or Bam. Add in all the other available players that have moved, Harden, Brunson, etc, there have been countless opportunities to either upgrade one of the three or upgrade the supporting cast.

Of course Jimmy and Bam are last on the "To trade list", but saying neither be traded two months after Jimmy is actually traded is debatable. I don't think Jimmy's relationship with management was great last year, and it have gone on longer than that.

Do we know if they've offered Herro plus filler for Zion over the last few years, for instance? Could have been a huge upgrade. Heat are way more strict and weight conscious than the Pelicans, with weekly weigh ins for everybody. We might see Zion at full potential right now. Lot of old and injured players boost their value in Miami.

I pull up Nikola Jovic reviews, I come up with this. If you want to come up with articles that support your low value theory, i'd be happy to see them. I'm not cherry picking, I'm posting the first ones that come up. Starting form when he was drafted (high trade value):

https://nbadraftroom.com/nikola-jovic/#:~:text=Jovic%20is%20one%20of%20the%20most%20talented%20prospects,a%20little%20bit%20of%20everything%20on%20the%20court.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10032677-nikola-jovic-draft-scouting-report-pro-comparison-updated-heat-roster

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nikola-jovic-top-european-nba-draft-prospect/xa22obw7o67wqa2u9icffk9r

https://sports.yahoo.com/jovic-left-heat-impressed-productive-155704905.html

https://www.si.com/nba/heat/he-pushes-the-pace-obviously-he-can-make-the-right-play-every-time-bam-adebayo-on-nikola-jovic-01ja0x1f6t97

This was a quick search, but general opinion of Jovic seems to be pretty high. He was voted best international prospect in the draft by several GM's before the draft. Doubt everybody's opinion got much worse in the first year or two.

[2weekswithpay]

Nobody's saying they had to trade Butler or Bam. Although the thought that either is untradeable to get a better star, that's a personal opinion. Also your opinion the Heat young players have low trade value. Over the last few years, I've seen a lot of high praise and trade value from many media pundits on Jovic, Ke' el Ware, and jaquez. I'm using Ware now, could use Caleb Martin, when he had good trade value instead or other players. Tyler Herro is a high value trade asset. Heat had first round picks in 2020, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2028, 2029, 2030. They missed one pick.

The Dame trade is specific to they didn't want Herro. Guess what, the Spurs didn't want Zach. They got De Aaron Fox, and Zach went to the Kings. Figure out a three way. Don't know how the Stepian rule would prevent them from offering more picks for Dame when you can trade picks 7 years out.

Are you arguing the Heat missed on four star trades because Tyler Herro, expiring contracts, young players like Jovic, Precious Achuiwa, and multiple firsts aren't enough? Not just talking about the Dame trade, Butler's been there since 2019 and they've added NOBODY good. Skip superstars, not one Jaren Jackson, Brandon Ingram level player. Not even talking about adding a superstar, they should be able to add a Wiggins/Tobias Harris player without trading Herro, Bam or Butler over 5 years, two of which Bam, Herro and Jimmy combined for $37 mill.

How about this. All four want to come to the Bulls. We have similar assets to Miami. Are you excusing AK for missing on all four trades?

You brought Jimmy and Bam up as assets. If they aren't available for trade, then they shouldn't be included.

They have had a ton of trade assets, saying they didn't have the assets is wrong. Heat have/had Butler, Herro, Bam,

Ware has been praised. Jovic, I doubt that. Who in the national media is paying attention to Jovic? When Dame asked out Jovic had played 15 games total. Calen Martin was 27 years old when he had that amazing playoff run for the Heat, he wasn't a young asset. The Stepien rule prevents you from trading first round picks in back-to-back seasons. Of those picks you listed, how many were they capable of trading? They traded 2019 and 2023/2024 were also traded when they got Butler. You can't trade picks that fall under protections, and you can't trade back to back first round picks. The number of picks they could trade was limited to 2-3.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

I'm saying that the Heat didn't have enough assets to get Mitchell or KD. The Suns and Cavs offered way more than the Heat could without including Bam or Butler, and trading one of those two would defeat the purpose of getting a star. KD got traded for Cam Johnson, Bridges, and 4 FRPs. Mitchell was for 3 FRPs, 2 swaps, Lauri, Sexton, and Ochai Agbaji, who was just drafted. The Heat aren't beating these offers.

The Blazers weren't interested in the Heat's offer for Dame.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

The 4th star Beal wouldn't waive his no trade clause, and honestly, Riley made the right call here.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Jaren Jackson and most young players like him aren't on the market. Dude won DPOY, he ain't getting traded. They tried with Terry Rozier who was probably overrated, but it didn't work out. The Heat do trade for role players like Wiggins/Harris.

Yeah. The only trade I'd be mad at would be not getting Lillard. The Cavs and Suns offered more than we could and screw Beal and his no trade clause.

Jimmy and Bam are included if you're trying to put three stars together. You guys are missing the entire point. We're talking over a 5 year period. In two of those years, they had Jimmy, Bam, Herro for $37 mill. They could have used EITHER one of the three to upgrade. If I can work a deal including Bam to get Embid, let's go. I'm working a trade for Durant and I include Bam, but 2021 Durant and 2021 Bam. They could have upgraded Herro or Bam and kept Jimmy. He's a number 1. Or add another high level $20-$30 mill star level player wothout moving either.

The 4 deals we're talking about aren't even the only star trades they could have made over that time period. I use Jimmy in a trade for Luka and I have Luka, Herro, Bam. None of those three are even close to untradable or the best at their positions. They've had three very good players at SG, SF, and center for 5 years. Maybe best coach in the league. They didn't need a superstar, I use Dame, KD, Jaren Jackson as an upper level, there have been tons of good PF's and point guards who have moved around the last five years. They don't give Duncan Robinson that 5 years/90 mill, who could they have gotten since 2021?

To be honest, even just using the 4 mentioned, at various points over the last 5 years, Donovan Mitchell, Kevin Durant and Dame Lillard at least have been considered higher value than any of Butler, Herro or Bam. Add in all the other available players that have moved, Harden, Brunson, etc, there have been countless opportunities to either upgrade one of the three or upgrade the supporting cast.

Of course Jimmy and Bam are last on the "To trade list", but saying neither be traded two months after Jimmy is actually traded is debatable. I don't think Jimmy's relationship with management was great last year, and it have gone on longer than that.

Do we know if they've offered Herro plus filler for Zion over the last few years, for instance? Could have been a huge upgrade. Heat are way more strict and weight conscious than the Pelicans, with weekly weigh ins for everybody. We might see Zion at full potential right now. Lot of old and injured players boost their value in Miami.

I pull up Nikola Jovic reviews, I come up with this. If you want to come up with articles that support your low value theory, i'd be happy to see them. I'm not cherry picking, I'm posting the first ones that come up. Starting form when he was drafted (high trade value):

https://nbadraftroom.com/nikola-jovic/#:~:text=Jovic%20is%20one%20of%20the%20most%20talented%20prospects,a%20little%20bit%20of%20everything%20on%20the%20court.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10032677-nikola-jovic-draft-scouting-report-pro-comparison-updated-heat-roster

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nikola-jovic-top-european-nba-draft-prospect/xa22obw7o67wqa2u9icffk9r

https://sports.yahoo.com/jovic-left-heat-impressed-productive-155704905.html

https://www.si.com/nba/heat/he-pushes-the-pace-obviously-he-can-make-the-right-play-every-time-bam-adebayo-on-nikola-jovic-01ja0x1f6t97

This was a quick search, but general opinion of Jovic seems to be pretty high. He was voted best international prospect in the draft by several GM's before the draft. Doubt everybody's opinion got much worse in the first year or two.

You want to pair stars with Bam and Butler. Trading Butler or Bam for one of them isn't much of an upgrade, if one at all. A star of Embiid's level wasn't a realistic target for the Heat. You aren't winning a title with KD, Butler, and Herro, and no reliable center because you traded Bam. You trade for a star to give yourself a chance at winning a title. If you have to trade away Bam or Butler, your chances of winning aren't improving enough if at all. If KD was 25 years old, then sure, everyone is available. The Suns didn't improve by trading everything they had for a 35 year old KD.

The Mavs' GM, Nico Harrison, traded Luka in complete secrecy. No one knew Luka was on the market. Who are the other stars on the market since 2020?
Who was available that the Heat actually had a chance at getting? Brunson was a free agent signing and wasn't a star at the time. Brunson went the NY, where his dad is a coach for the Knicks, and Leon Rose the team president, is his Godfather. Getting Brunson wasn't realistic. Harden sure when he was on the market in 2023 and 2021.

Jimmy forced his way out. The Heat wouldn't have traded him otherwise. No one's saying they aren't available, but I'm not trading Bam for Lillard and losing my All-Defense starting center. I'm not trading Butler for Lillard and losing my best wing defender and 2nd option. Including either of these two is pointless because you'd more or less be in the same spot as before.

People are only talking about a Zion trade now because this is the first time he's likely on the market.

Guess how many international players were drafted in the 2022 first round? 2. He was the best out of a bad international draft class. Not to mention, 26 teams passed on him.

[Indomitable]

They are a speed bump.

This year, yes. But the point being that when the Heat had more talent, that mindset helped them make 3 ECFs, two of which they won.

They had Jimmy and he left. A lot of this young guys are not going to go there.

They are very dependent on attracting a star. Wade is done. He got LeBron and talked Jimmy into going.

[Ice Man]

They are very dependent on attracting a star. Wade is done. He got LeBron and talked Jimmy into going.

Attracting or getting. Yes, that's true, but almost every champion is in the same boat. The Warriors stumbled across Steph with a mid-lottery pick, the Bucks landed Giannis with a mid-round pick, Denver and Jokic we know about, OKC picked up SGA in a trade, Cleveland got Mitchell in a trade, etc.

You never know when lightning will strike. A team certainly doesn't need to lose 60 games for that to happen. So shrug, I don't think either the Heat or the Bulls are in bad shape. They're each one true star away from being meaningful.