Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[pb-ceo]

you know this better than anybody. every player has a + - rating. every player does things well and not so well. the trick is finding players that will be + value for your team despite the negatives. SA obviously thought the plus greatly outweighed the minus. And he has not dissapointed. pau would also be much better with a better perimeter PnR defender to work with.

When Jimmy comments so broadly like this it can be taken a dozen different ways as people want to defend this or that player, for why it can't be on them. Pau could have his own topic. He really isn't playing that great this year so far.

no he is not having a great year. but that's expected. he is in the last year of his deal. so this was a good deal for the bulls. it worked out perfect. we got good value. but at his age he has to consider his options now. the expectations for pau are extremely high for his age. I suspect he moves on, which is fine. we got him for a bargain price too. This is not at all like the Pippen or Hamilton or Wallace signings. pau delivered the value.

pau is not the issue. the issue continues to be the unbalanced salary structure. bad luck for the FO and coaches that this is the way it turned out. hopefully they move on from it. but that's still up in the air, considering how sentimental FO can be with players.

[Dajody10]

Interesting name, as team cohesion was a lot better before we jettisoned the most respected leader in the locker room.

Though credit to Thibs he did rally the team awesomely after Deng was traded in 2014, defeating what could easily have been a stealth tank move that year.

But that was more of a one year defiant reaction by the team it seemed. Once they finally ran out of anger the next year, the team has since seemed rather headless in terms of leadership.

The same Luol Deng who quit on Scott Skiles and Del Nego? Comon now, I knew bringing up lover boy Luol Deng was a risky proposition, but I didn't think it would be a rallying cry! smfh

I wasn't the biggest Deng fan myself, but I'm just explaining what the players on the team said about his importance as a leader and in the locker room.

And other than the defiant rally they did to finish 2014, the locker room has seemed a mess and team effort crappy, since they gave him the ultimatum to take that contract or get traded.

Players were really down after that trade, saying Deng was like their brother, they lost a great voice, etc.

The locker room went into the tank when Rose came back last season, said he was worried about feeling good at his sons graduation, and that he was going to 'pick and choose his spots' as a build up for the playoffs to ensure he doesn't get hurt in meaningless regular season games. The Derrick Rose who showed up to training camp last fall (2014) was a different person on and off the floor. The team, and the locker room, has never recovered and they have taken on his identity. That is why the Bulls have been maddeningly inconsistent for over a year and a half now. When your PG, and lets be honest the most talented natural player on the floor, blatantly portrays a tactic to play hard when he feels like it, that sort of attitude is then permeated down the entire roster.

[Rerisen]

we got good value

Good value but not a great fit I would argue.

pau is not the issue. the issue continues to be the unbalanced salary structure.

But signing Pau is what created a lot of the imbalance, in the frontcourt at least, and in 2 years, the FO has done nothing to balance it, actually they drafted another big to make it even more nonsensical.

[TheGOATRises007]

[GetBuLLish]

If there's anything we do know, it's that this FO has a really hard time keeping itself above the fray when things get emotionally heated. And Jimmy just attacked Gar's non-biological son.

So this could get very interesting.

[Rerisen]

The locker room went into the tank when Rose came back last season, said he was worried about feeling good at his sons graduation, and that he was going to 'pick and choose his spots' as a build up for the playoffs to ensure he doesn't get hurt in meaningless regular season games. The Derrick Rose who showed up to training camp last fall (2014) was a different person on and off the floor. The team, and the locker room, has never recovered and they have taken on his identity. That is why the Bulls have been maddeningly inconsistent for over a year and a half now. When your PG, and lets be honest the most talented natural player on the floor, blatantly portrays a tactic to play hard when he feels like it, that sort of attitude is then permeated down the entire roster.

I'm beginning to think Rose is just washed up due to injury.

While its true he seems a lot more aggressive some games, most of the time, even when he is it doesn't make the team much better, because he just ends up with some horrendous volume efficiency numbers.

So we need to start facing reality and figure out a way to address it. Whether that is trading for a guy like Ty Lawson, or trying to start someone else, or massively dropping his minutes, or giving up and trading other vets for draft picks to rebuild. A new direction.

Because this narrative that we just need Rose to 'buy in' , 'play hard', or 'push it', every night to fix the team, I think its just a fantasy.

[Rerisen]

KC is such a putz sometimes.

Butler is talking about holding players to account, nowhere did he say anything about he's mad because the offense isn't designed for him enough.

He wants to win games, not just score 40 points. He did that the other night and said he didn't care how many he got because they lost.

KC trying to portray him as a hypocrite is really missing the boat.

Guess we'll have to hope on Cowley again as a better shot at getting the real story.

[Ice Man]

[We have won more games because of Pau than Butler

You won't get many to agree with you on that one. Jimmy has been this team's best player more this year than he was last year (as Pau was stronger last year and Derrick too). You don't have to like his style of play, or his manner of carrying himself, but he does help his team win games on the court.

[pb-ceo]

we got good value

Good value but not a great fit I would argue.

pau is not the issue. the issue continues to be the unbalanced salary structure.

But signing Pau is what created a lot of the imbalance, in the frontcourt at least, and in 2 years, the FO has done nothing to balance it, actually they drafted another big to make it even more nonsensical.

elephant in the room is how much cap space we devote to PG position. this could be allocated quite differently. it's proven now that this team would be very good with an efficient 14 and 7 type of PG that can play D. As it stands I feel like Hoi is going to tell FO "hey don't judge me until you get me my kind of players". I suspect they start doing that, if not this season then certainly after it.

[Dajody10]

The locker room went into the tank when Rose came back last season, said he was worried about feeling good at his sons graduation, and that he was going to 'pick and choose his spots' as a build up for the playoffs to ensure he doesn't get hurt in meaningless regular season games. The Derrick Rose who showed up to training camp last fall (2014) was a different person on and off the floor. The team, and the locker room, has never recovered and they have taken on his identity. That is why the Bulls have been maddeningly inconsistent for over a year and a half now. When your PG, and lets be honest the most talented natural player on the floor, blatantly portrays a tactic to play hard when he feels like it, that sort of attitude is then permeated down the entire roster.

I'm beginning to think Rose is just washed up due to injury.

While its true he seems a lot more aggressive some games, most of the time, even when he is it doesn't make the team much better, because he just ends up with some horrendous volume efficiency numbers.

So we need to start facing reality and figure out a way to address it. Whether that is trading for a guy like Ty Lawson, or trying to start someone else, or massively dropping his minutes, or giving up and trading other vets for draft picks to rebuild. A new direction.

Because this narrative that we just need Rose to 'buy in' , 'play hard', or 'push it', every night to fix the team, I think its just a fantasy.

Yes and no, and I go back and forth on this all the time. Rose is clearly never going to be the MVP, that is blatantly obvious - but Rose has shown, when engaged and focused, that he can still play at an All Star level. That's what makes it so frustrating, you can see there is still high level ability there, but he just doesn't feel the need to do it on a nightly basis.

[Stratmaster]

WTF? You just got done saying you would trade Butler or Rose or both for the right player. Which is it?

There is a massive gulf between, "I would trade him for the right player" - a trade that doesn't exist right now - and, "He needs to go."

We have won more games because of Pau than Butler, regardless of efficiency, playing both ends of the court, etc. But I couldn't give a damn about a pissing match over which player is more valuable.

I won't even address this because I know it will just be try to trash every objective measurement of how much players impact the game.

And i never said a thing about cheering for geriatric vets. In fact, I suggested trading one of them, along with Butler, for an impact player. But if you want to start attacking each other go for it. It is usually the route you go at some point when the discussion doesn't favor you. "I don't make sense but the other guy is just stupid".

Weren't you the guy who mentioned all our vets as the players on the team doing what they are supposed to, in effect?

I don't think I ever said trade him for nobody. I said an impact player and I said Butler should have great value. Since you think he is clearly the best and most valuable player on the team I expect you would agree.

I mentioned professional behavior as a comparison to Butler and "everyone else on the team" which includes Rose, Snell and Niko. Where did I suggest the team should clear out everyone else and we should just cheer the geriatric vets? You are consistent in putting words in other posters mouths to try to change their position to something you can easily point out as stupid.

[TheGOATRises007]

KC is such a putz sometimes.

Butler is talking about holding players to account, nowhere did he say anything about he's mad because the offense isn't designed for him enough.

He wants to win games, not just score 40 points. He did that the other night and said he didn't care how many he got because they lost.

KC trying to portray him as a hypocrite is really missing the boat.

What he's doing is really selfish imo.

This is the 3rd time he's calling out the team publicly. Each time it gets worse and worse.

He needs to approach these matters privately and just STFU and play.

[Rerisen]

elephant in the room is how much cap space we devote to PG position. this could be allocated quite differently. it's proven now that this team would be very good with an efficient 14 and 7 type of PG that can play D. As it stands I feel like Hoi is going to tell FO "hey don't judge me until you get me my kind of players". I suspect they start doing that, if not this season then certainly after it.

Yes but that biggest elephant is too heavy to move anywhere. We can't do anything about it.

The other littler elephants, like the bigs imbalance, we could certainly in theory address.

But instead we seem to get a lot of, "We like our team" nonsense and its all about just bringing in a new coach to make this roster hum.

[GetBuLLish]

KC trying to portray him as a hypocrite is really missing the boat.

Guess we'll have to hope on Cowley again as a better shot at getting the real story.

Your mistake is that you think KC is trying to explain the situation. That's not his goal. His goal is to get the Bulls' PR out there to discredit Butler.

[Rerisen]

What he's doing is really selfish imo.

Well he also called himself out too though.

He said he wants to be coached harder and he wants the team coached harder as well.

So its not like he's tooting his own horn and blaming everyone else. Though he probably could as he's played the best this year.

Let's not act like this level of play is acceptable if not for Butler opening his mouth. This is the same level of play and inconsistency, that just got a former Coach of the Year fired.

[TheGOATRises007]

Cowley has an article on this, and of course he thinks Butler is talking mainly about Rose.

[Rerisen]

KC trying to portray him as a hypocrite is really missing the boat.

Guess we'll have to hope on Cowley again as a better shot at getting the real story.

Your mistake is that you think KC is trying to explain the situation. That's not his goal. His goal is to get the Bulls' PR out there to discredit Butler.

That's what I was trying to get across as well.

[kyrv]

Just to state the obvious, the thread title is not honest, Butler does not say or imply Hoiberg should be replaced, let alone saying "someone like Thibs".

[Dajody10]

elephant in the room is how much cap space we devote to PG position. this could be allocated quite differently. it's proven now that this team would be very good with an efficient 14 and 7 type of PG that can play D. As it stands I feel like Hoi is going to tell FO "hey don't judge me until you get me my kind of players". I suspect they start doing that, if not this season then certainly after it.

Yes but that biggest elephant is too heavy to move anywhere. We can't do anything about it.

The other littler elephants, like the bigs imbalance, we could certainly in theory address.

But instead we seem to get a lot of, "We like our team" nonsense and its all about just bringing in a new coach to make this roster hum.

The Bulls signing Pau was the right move, he was the next best buy and there was nobody else worth getting. Drafting Portis was the right move because he was the best available and that should always be the approach. Refusing to ever make a trade, and continuing to tell everyone how much 'we love this core, we love this team' just goes to show you how inept Paxson and Forman are at improving a roster via trade. It's an absolute travesty how incompetent they have been from a trade perspective.

[R3AL1TY]

It looks like KC is trying to rub it in about Butler being mad at the coach for not holding players accountable for the offense yet part of the offense is iso plays ran for him. It also gives off a tone of him trying to paint Butler as selfish.