2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery

[MeloRoseNoah]

Can we stop calling Reddish a shooter. He isn't.

*Guy who hasn’t read a single Cam scouting report

.333 % at the three point line despite shooting open treys all day from the attention being paid to Zion and Barrett. Yeah, he isn't a shooter.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Tracy McGrady shot a pretty ball once upon a time.

I can get behind it at #7

You just don't get it.

Do you even know the Tracy McGrady ABCD story?

He did the exact opposite of what Cam did at Duke.

He was literally the last kid invited, no where near a top prospect.

HE DOMINATED. LEFT A TRAIL OF DEAD IN HIS WAKE. IT WAS LEGENDARY.

You just don’t get it. You just picked a random bust and compared him to Cam. So I picked a random success. The goal was to show you your shorthand logic was silly but it clearly flew right past you.

It wasn't random. It's an example that just because it looks pretty doesn't mean its going in.

All the evidence points to Cam being bad........b-b-b-b-b-but HS rankings and pretty basketball stuff.

[Red Larrivee]

I don't think some of the people touting Reddish realize just how awful a 13.2 PER is on a 26.1 Usage Rate. It's toxic inefficiency and doesn't resemble anything close to being NBA-ready. I went back to 2000 for a list of players who:

- Were freshmen
- Had less than a 15 PER
- Had a Usage Rate higher than 25%
- Played at least 25 minutes per game

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=2001&year_max=2019&class_is_fr=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&games_type=A&c1stat=per&c1comp=lt&c1val=15&c2stat=usg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=25&c3stat=mp_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=25&order_by=pts

The Median WS on this list: 1.1

Reddish clears the list with the highest WS at 3. Scroll that list and see if you can find any superstar players or even awesome NBA players.

Players from that list (aside from Reddish) who left college for the NBA after that season: 0

Players from that list who made it to the NBA: Marcus Thornton (out of the league after 7 seasons), Jabari Brown (played one season), Le'Bryan Nash (former 5-star recruit, ended up staying four years in college, hasn't played an NBA minute)

Reddish is heading to the NBA after having an all-time awful season for a Top 10 pick. Please tell me more about how we're swinging for the fences.

[Duke4life831]

I have a feeling Cam is going to crush a workout and will go somewhere in the top 7. All it takes is for him to be hot during 1 workout and I can see a GM falling in love with him. He can defend 2s and 3s from day 1, with his size and length, give him some time to put some muscle on and should be able to guard small ball 4s (like Barnes, Marvin Williams types).

Here is the thing, Cam is a pretty damn good on ball defender. And when he is on, that shot is a thing of beauty. I do believe his shot will come around and be consistent, ala Bradley Beal (almost identical 3pt and FT numbers). Then if you watch his high school tape, you can definitely sell yourself on this potential sharp shooting point forward that is a super versatile defender. This is why at 1 point Cam was ranked 1st in this class during high school.

But all throughout college Cam showed he was incapable of putting the ball on the court. It seemed like 80% of the time he attacked the rim, he would either lose control and turn it over, or he would just get called for a charge. It became really hard to watch. He also continued his biggest issue from high school and that was his inconsistencies. Could have a dominant half, then won't hear from him for 3-4 games.

Cam is the ultimate high risk high reward prospect. Again I get it, if the dude can put it all together, he is an elite prospect. But I can also see him being sent down to the G League in a year and we never hear from him again. I also wouldn't risk a lotto pick let alone a top 10 pick on a guy with that big of a risk. He is the type of guy a team can take the risk on in the 20s. No way should he be viewed as a top 10 pick.

[drosestruts]

Reddish is hypnotizing people with these meaningless workouts. Making jumpers in the gym is not his problem.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

So many players are looking good in these workouts. That shows you how difficult the NBA really is.

If you ever get to an NBA game early watching shoot around is incredible. I've Daequan Cook knock down like 98% of his shots during warm-ups. You can watch Joakim Noah hit 18-20 footers like they're automatic. These guys don't miss in empty gyms.

[cjbulls]

There has never been a star NBA player who sucks as much donkey kong as Cam Reddish did in college. That's a fact. I don't care about his tools. He's missing some key ingredients. You can bring up Kawhi Lenaord, Paul George, Donovan Mitchell, etc... here. But, all of those guys at least prove that they were efficient and above average in college basketball from Day 1, as evident by PER about 20+ min as well as TS close to .600.

As a Bulls fan, I hope that this future bust gets picked by the Cleveland or Phoenix of the world instead of my beloved Bulls. Picking Cam Reddish and talking about his tool to be a star is like MPJ fanboys declaring him to be a future star from HS hype instead of looking at the college tape over 12 months.

I wanted nothing to do MPJ last year, even at 22.

I have Barrett on tier 3 with Garland, White and Hunter

I wouldn’t take Bol even in the second round

I wouldn’t take Little in the top 10.

But keep saying it’s about HS rankings. And btw, say hi to all the scouts and front offices that consistently rank Cam in the top 7-8.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

More subjectively:
Looking at the prospects like cars may be able to give some perspective.
Like buying a new car.
-Right now garland is in the shop.
-Hunter is like a hummer.
- White is like a fast 2 seater coupe.
-Cam is a lambo that needs a new engine but it's still running.

If only we could have had a slice of Zion pizza. Mmm hmm That would have been good.

Sounds about right.

[MeloRoseNoah]

I wanted nothing to do MPJ last year, even at 22.

I have Barrett on tier 3 with Garland, White and Hunter

I wouldn’t take Bol even in the second round

I wouldn’t take Little in the top 10.

But keep saying it’s about HS rankings. And btw, say hi to all the scouts and front offices that consistently rank Cam in the top 7-8.

Do you have a mole to all the NBA front offices? Most of their points are pure conjectures without any facts. Give me legit arguments from Reddish college performance to why he's a top lottery talent. Every metrics, numbers, and even film tapes say that he is garbage.

Marquis Teague was once considered a top HS prospect. We know that he sucks donkey kong. GarPax literally just drafted him in the first round without any workout or scouting work besides his HS ranking. They admitted to that in the interviews.

[cjbulls]

I wanted nothing to do MPJ last year, even at 22.

I have Barrett on tier 3 with Garland, White and Hunter

I wouldn’t take Bol even in the second round

I wouldn’t take Little in the top 10.

But keep saying it’s about HS rankings. And btw, say hi to all the scouts and front offices that consistently rank Cam in the top 7-8.

Do you have a mole to all the NBA front offices? Most of their points are pure conjectures without any facts. Give me legit arguments from Reddish college performance to why he's a top lottery talent. Every metrics, numbers, and even film tapes say that he is garbage.

Marquis Teague was once considered a top HS prospect. We know that he sucks donkey kong. GarPax literally just drafted him in the first round without any workout or scouting work besides his HS ranking. They admitted to that in the interviews.

Yes, Cam was informed he will be likely taken 5-10. I believe the NBA provides this service to underclassmen but don’t quote me on that piece. Or was it 3-7? I can’t remember but yes he’s going top 10.

And yes the NBA and media scouting community are well aware of his percentages and Duke game tape.

[MeloRoseNoah]

I wanted nothing to do MPJ last year, even at 22.

I have Barrett on tier 3 with Garland, White and Hunter

I wouldn’t take Bol even in the second round

I wouldn’t take Little in the top 10.

But keep saying it’s about HS rankings. And btw, say hi to all the scouts and front offices that consistently rank Cam in the top 7-8.

Do you have a mole to all the NBA front offices? Most of their points are pure conjectures without any facts. Give me legit arguments from Reddish college performance to why he's a top lottery talent. Every metrics, numbers, and even film tapes say that he is garbage.

Marquis Teague was once considered a top HS prospect. We know that he sucks donkey kong. GarPax literally just drafted him in the first round without any workout or scouting work besides his HS ranking. They admitted to that in the interviews.

Yes, Cam was informed he will be likely taken 5-10. I believe the NBA provides this service to underclassmen but don’t quote me on that piece.

So, we're going to take him bc some teams are interested in him. Similar to Emery taking Soft Charming Shea McCellin bc the Packers are interested in him. If you want to draft busts, sure go right ahead. So far, you haven't provided a substantial point on why you think that Reddish will become a star like Paul George or Tracy McGrady.

[cjbulls]

Do you have a mole to all the NBA front offices? Most of their points are pure conjectures without any facts. Give me legit arguments from Reddish college performance to why he's a top lottery talent. Every metrics, numbers, and even film tapes say that he is garbage.

Marquis Teague was once considered a top HS prospect. We know that he sucks donkey kong. GarPax literally just drafted him in the first round without any workout or scouting work besides his HS ranking. They admitted to that in the interviews.

Yes, Cam was informed he will be likely taken 5-10. I believe the NBA provides this service to underclassmen but don’t quote me on that piece.

So, we're going to take him bc some teams are interested in him. Similar to Emery taking Soft Charming Shea McCellin bc the Packers are interested in him. If you want to draft busts, sure go right ahead. So far, you haven't provided a substantial point on why you think that Reddish will become a star like Paul George or Tracy McGrady.

Because he has the size and skill set to be a very effective player. And he has a history up until this last year of success. And the last year put him in a spot different from any other prospect. I don’t pretend to know what his issue was, but more investigation is needed other than box scores.

The only people out of line are the ones who “know” he’s a bust when the media and league recognize him as a top 10 pick.

[bearadonisdna]

Yes, Cam was informed he will be likely taken 5-10. I believe the NBA provides this service to underclassmen but don’t quote me on that piece.

So, we're going to take him bc some teams are interested in him. Similar to Emery taking Soft Charming Shea McCellin bc the Packers are interested in him. If you want to draft busts, sure go right ahead. So far, you haven't provided a substantial point on why you think that Reddish will become a star like Paul George or Tracy McGrady.

Because he has the size and skill set to be a very effective player. And he has a history up until this last year of success. And the last year put him in a spot different from any other prospect. I don’t pretend to know what his issue was, but more investigation is needed other than box scores.

The only people out of line are the ones who “know” he’s a bust when the media and league recognize him as a top 10 pick.

At some point the college stats won't matter anymore.

[kulaz3000]

Yes, Cam was informed he will be likely taken 5-10. I believe the NBA provides this service to underclassmen but don’t quote me on that piece.

So, we're going to take him bc some teams are interested in him. Similar to Emery taking Soft Charming Shea McCellin bc the Packers are interested in him. If you want to draft busts, sure go right ahead. So far, you haven't provided a substantial point on why you think that Reddish will become a star like Paul George or Tracy McGrady.

Because he has the size and skill set to be a very effective player. And he has a history up until this last year of success. And the last year put him in a spot different from any other prospect. I don’t pretend to know what his issue was, but more investigation is needed other than box scores.

The only people out of line are the ones who “know” he’s a bust when the media and league recognize him as a top 10 pick.

And whether the league still considers him a value prospect, doesn't mean he actually will be either. If we're going to go by the temperature of the league, we would never see any busts of players being drafted in the lottery, and yet we do year after year.

Don't get me wrong, he may pan out to be a really good player, but the key point I continue to emphasis is that he was touted as a shooter, and yet as the third option, he proved that he wasn't a shooter. Shooter's tend to make open shots, and he got plenty throughout his freshman season.

Best case scenario for him is that he is a player who needs the ball in his hands more often, to get himself in a groove and is more of a scorer as opposed to a knock down shooter, which is fine. But this reputation of him being a shooter just doesn't fit, and seeing video clips of him making jumpers in workout videos isn't going to change my mind either.

[drosereturn]

There has never been a star NBA player who sucks as much donkey kong as Cam Reddish did in college. That's a fact. I don't care about his tools. He's missing some key ingredients. You can bring up Kawhi Lenaord, Paul George, Donovan Mitchell, etc... here. But, all of those guys at least prove that they were efficient and above average in college basketball from Day 1, as evident by PER about 20+ min as well as TS close to .600.

As a Bulls fan, I hope that this future bust gets picked by the Cleveland or Phoenix of the world instead of my beloved Bulls. Picking Cam Reddish and talking about his tool to be a star is like MPJ fanboys declaring him to be a future star from HS hype instead of looking at the college tape over 12 months.

I wanted nothing to do MPJ last year, even at 22.

I have Barrett on tier 3 with Garland, White and Hunter

I wouldn’t take Bol even in the second round

I wouldn’t take Little in the top 10.

But keep saying it’s about HS rankings. And btw, say hi to all the scouts and front offices that consistently rank Cam in the top 7-8.

No 2nd round Bol Bol? So let me get this straight. Gar likes to trade away those picks for cash and your saying you would prefer cash over Bol? Seem you were pretty high when you wrote this.

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[kulaz3000]

I don't think some of the people touting Reddish realize just how awful a 13.2 PER is on a 26.1 Usage Rate. It's toxic inefficiency and doesn't resemble anything close to being NBA-ready. I went back to 2000 for a list of players who:

- Were freshmen
- Had less than a 15 PER
- Had a Usage Rate higher than 25%
- Played at least 25 minutes per game

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=2001&year_max=2019&class_is_fr=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&games_type=A&c1stat=per&c1comp=lt&c1val=15&c2stat=usg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=25&c3stat=mp_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=25&order_by=pts

The Median WS on this list: 1.1

Reddish clears the list with the highest WS at 3. Scroll that list and see if you can find any superstar players or even awesome NBA players.

Players from that list (aside from Reddish) who left college for the NBA after that season: 0

Players from that list who made it to the NBA: Marcus Thornton (out of the league after 7 seasons), Jabari Brown (played one season), Le'Bryan Nash (former 5-star recruit, ended up staying four years in college, hasn't played an NBA minute)

Reddish is heading to the NBA after having an all-time awful season for a Top 10 pick. Please tell me more about how we're swinging for the fences.

Yeah, the fact that people want to gloss over the fact that he has had one of the worst production on the college level and is still considered a lottery pick is quite alarming. It goes to show how weak this draft class is.

There just aren't many players who played so inconsistently and so overwhelmingly, and then suddenly become a star in the NBA. If there is a player who should go back to college, it's him.

[drosereturn]

Reiterating the cash over Bol thing, as I was writing the post, it reminded me of Nets trading Korver for a damn copy machine. When I learned yesterday Korver officially lasted longer than the machine, that was the funniest thing in a long moment Korver would have shared that story in his commencement at Creighton.

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[cjbulls]

I don't think some of the people touting Reddish realize just how awful a 13.2 PER is on a 26.1 Usage Rate. It's toxic inefficiency and doesn't resemble anything close to being NBA-ready. I went back to 2000 for a list of players who:

- Were freshmen
- Had less than a 15 PER
- Had a Usage Rate higher than 25%
- Played at least 25 minutes per game

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=2001&year_max=2019&class_is_fr=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&games_type=A&c1stat=per&c1comp=lt&c1val=15&c2stat=usg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=25&c3stat=mp_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=25&order_by=pts

The Median WS on this list: 1.1

Reddish clears the list with the highest WS at 3. Scroll that list and see if you can find any superstar players or even awesome NBA players.

Players from that list (aside from Reddish) who left college for the NBA after that season: 0

Players from that list who made it to the NBA: Marcus Thornton (out of the league after 7 seasons), Jabari Brown (played one season), Le'Bryan Nash (former 5-star recruit, ended up staying four years in college, hasn't played an NBA minute)

Reddish is heading to the NBA after having an all-time awful season for a Top 10 pick. Please tell me more about how we're swinging for the fences.

Yeah, the fact that people want to gloss over the fact that he has had one of the worst production on the college level and is still considered a lottery pick is quite alarming. It goes to show how weak this draft class is.

There just aren't many players who played so inconsistently and so overwhelmingly, and then suddenly become a star in the NBA. If there is a player who should go back to college, it's him.

Agreed on the weak draft helping him. And we are all very well aware of his terrible numbers.

My point continues to be it’s just easy for everyone to say his numbers suck so he sucks. He will be a very interesting experiment. All tools, no numbers. Unique team situation.

[bad knees]

The more I look at this draft, the more I would just prefer to trade down. Like down to the 20's. I like some guys who are projected to go in the 20's as much as I like the guys who are likely to be available at 7. The Celtics have 14, 20 and 22. Maybe they would want the 7 pick as part of their pitch to the Pels for AD. The Nets have 17, 27 and 31 - I might even consider that package.

[cjbulls]

There has never been a star NBA player who sucks as much donkey kong as Cam Reddish did in college. That's a fact. I don't care about his tools. He's missing some key ingredients. You can bring up Kawhi Lenaord, Paul George, Donovan Mitchell, etc... here. But, all of those guys at least prove that they were efficient and above average in college basketball from Day 1, as evident by PER about 20+ min as well as TS close to .600.

As a Bulls fan, I hope that this future bust gets picked by the Cleveland or Phoenix of the world instead of my beloved Bulls. Picking Cam Reddish and talking about his tool to be a star is like MPJ fanboys declaring him to be a future star from HS hype instead of looking at the college tape over 12 months.

I wanted nothing to do MPJ last year, even at 22.

I have Barrett on tier 3 with Garland, White and Hunter

I wouldn’t take Bol even in the second round

I wouldn’t take Little in the top 10.

But keep saying it’s about HS rankings. And btw, say hi to all the scouts and front offices that consistently rank Cam in the top 7-8.

No 2nd round Bol Bol? So let me get this straight. Gar likes to trade away those picks for cash and your saying you would prefer cash over Bol? Seem you were pretty high when you wrote this.

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The point is to say I’d take another player over Bol. You made up the cash thing. He’s a walking distraction (whenever he is actually healthy enough to walk) and bad for the locker room. The Bulls are one of the teams least equipped teams to try and get him on track.

[kulaz3000]

Agreed on the weak draft helping him. And we are all very well aware of his terrible numbers.

My point continues to be it’s just easy for everyone to say his numbers suck so he sucks. He will be a very interesting experiment. All tools, no numbers. Unique team situation.

But how can you blame those people who feel he will bust, considering that there have been prospects throughout draft history with much better numbers in college, who still didn't work out in the NBA, and yet you expect someone who had horrible numbers to be optimistic about? Because of what exactly? What he did in high school?