OT- The Last Dance documentary

[Michael Jackson]

"Anyhow, I told Jerry Reinsdorf that day," Floyd said on the radio show, "I don't think Jerry [Krause] understands that these guys are basically the Beatles. This is the most popular franchise of all time. I said, 'If I'm you, I would not do this. Not even the following year. Let it die a natural death because there are certain teams and players that you just don't break up. I think these guys have earned the right to let it die its own death.'"

"Jerry Reinsdorf asked me, 'Tim, would you tell Jerry Krause what you told me in downtown Seattle about next year?'" Floyd said. "I told Jerry Krause, and he said you don't understand, I can't do it. I don't want to work with Phil again. I said, 'Why don't you work downtown and let Phil work out of the other place [facility]?' Y'all just stay the hell away from each other because it's working.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-tim-floyd-says-jerry-krause-wanted-to-dismantle-michael-jordan-era-bulls-earlier-than-known/

If true, this really paints Reinsdorf as an exceptionally weak owner. He's in charge. Why was he unable to control the situation and Krause here? It's just absurd that he has to use a guy that's not even with the organization to reason with Krause. Even more absurd that Krause was ready to send Jackson packing after he won 72 games.

Reinsdorf is still weak. He didn't have the balls to fire Paxson so thankfully Paxson did the right thing and let him off the hook. In today's social media age Krause would have never gotten away with that though. He would have been torn apart for even suggesting it.

And this is exactly why JR should have been crucified. I defend the things about Jerry that aren't true but I have always har[ed on this point. He is not a meddler and he stays TOO FAR AWAY. HE did it with the Sox too.

I also knew by the look on Tim Floyds face he was never happy to be where he was. He was promised by Krause it seemed that he could keep MJ. Instead his buddy who ended up not being his buddy tore everything down. I'll never forget the miserable looks on his face at the end. Skiles never looked as pained as Floyd did.

[2018C3]

So much goes into workplace dynamics between employees and managers that it is easy for relationships to go sour, everyone makes mistakes. I know one thing, Its never a good idea to make your employer look bad.

Early on in my carer I once made my manager look bad, and it soured are relationship forever, I was just in a entry level position, and was responsible for setting up a video conference room, along with all the internal and external network connections for a video conference meeting. I did my job per the work order.

About 10 minutes after this meeting started I got called into the meeting to make adjustments to the connections requested. My manger belittled me in front of all the company executives, making it look like I messed up. I had the work order in hand, and simply said this room is setup exactly how you requested it to be, I have the printed work order in my hand. Its corporate policy to pull all connections after every meeting in this room, as this is a multi-purpose room and when meetings get requested its my job to only supply the connections that are requested, as I do not know the nature of these meetings that will take place. What your asking for now was not requested on the form filled out, but I can have these additional connections setup in just a few minutes.

My Manager quickly apologized to me in front of everyone, and I thought everything was cool. A few hours later after the meeting was over he called me into his office, Yelled at me some more, and warned me to never make him look bad again, else there would be consequences. I remember he said, "I don't care if I'm right or wrong, its your job to never make me look bad". I lost respect for him after this.

Are relationship never recovered. Looking back I should have done things differently. Now I would have taken the chew out, and later requested a meeting in private to explain why the room was set up the way it was.

I understand its difficult to project my situation upon a organization where everyone is making big money. But I feel every one involved in the Bulls situation could have handled these disagreements better, They should have been handled privately, and not on a team bus, If everyone was more thoughtful there is a chance the relationships may have not deteriorated to the point that they did.

I'm in the camp that believes everyone involved played a part.

On a side note: I eventually helped get this manager fired several years later, after he asked for service numbers to be manipulated on a customer report to the organization. I was asked to recover private message chats between him and another employee. He thought he was safe since it was done through messaging and not e-mail. A co-worker asked me to recover them in private, and I gladly did so.That co-worker then took the chats to upper management.

When the day finally came, the whole department was happy to finally be rid of this tyrant. Unfortunately the next in line was not much better for the company, although he had much better personal skills and was generally liked. The replacement eventually got fired for theft of retired servers, and pc's, and was caught after he sold them for personal gain.

[ATRAIN53]

I think you need to wait until we get into the 1998 Playoffs footage before we all sit here and blame the Jerrys for breaking up the dynasty too soon.

You're gonna see a team that pretty much limped into those 1998 Finals after a brutal ECF series with Indiana. Game 7 of that series is as close as it got to someone de-throning the Jordan Bulls.

That game was TIED with 5 min to go.

It was 83-85 with 2:00 to go.

This is the footage I'm dying to see if they have it. If they have film of this team during this series showing them with some fear of losing.

That 1998 Pacers ECF series better be a whole episode because that was epic stuff. Mark Jackson, Regie Miller, Fred Hoiberg, Jalen Rose and an aging Chris Mullin with coach Larry Bird. I hope they sat down with all those guys and interviewed them on this series.

They had us on the ropes, I want to hear those guys talk about that game. Esp Jalen Rose who played garbage min in that game but loves to talk. I've heard Reggie talk about it and how it was a missed oppertunity for him.

After that Jazz series and knowing this whole season was an all out leave it all on the table to win it -

You''ll stop thinking they should have gone on.
You'll understand why they called the whole season a Last Dance - before it even started.

[MrSparkle]

Just read that Pippen actually made more money in his NBA career than Jordan did (from NBA contracts only)....never would have guessed that and now I don't feel as bad for Pippen.

Honestly, I felt worse for Pippen after reading the Jordan Rules.

But after episode 2, hearing Wennington talk about how Pip crossed the line with Krause on the bus, hearing Reinsdorf explain that Pippen's agents and he advised against the 7-year deal, and now looking up the actual salary figures (relative), it really does seem like Pippen was just acting salty about making WAY less dough than MJ, and less than 5 role-players.

Furthermore, I don't think he'd ever admit it, but I think Jordan's $30m 1y contract made him really jealous. He's Robin making #2 man cash all this time, MJ's making $4m to his 2.5m -- all of a sudden MJ signs for 10x as much as you for the same year of work? That's why I think Pippen said **** it with the late surgery. That's just the vibe I caught by hearing that. One of things I didn't think about back when it happened, but seeing the documentary and piecing it together, I think he was very frustrated with the whole situation (which was basically his doing/financial agreement) and he mainly took it out on Krause, cause it was easy. Sure as hell wasn't gonna tell MJ to take a price hike for a Pippen charity.

jordan made an even bigger mistake than pippen did contract-wise (8 years vs 7). and complained less than scottie did. i kinda doubt that pippen was jealous of a guy cashing in who had to wait 8 years when he had only waited 6. if i was him, i would've seen what MJ got and been encouraged by the possibilities that awaited me if i continued to be healthy and perform

Granted Krause was in bad form making his trade conversations public

was it krause that leaked it? given his secrecy i find that unlikely. went to great lengths to keep the initial meeting w/ tim floyd secret, for example

i do find it rather astonishing that JR asked FLOYD to tell krause how ridiculous it was to be undermining phil like that

Yeah but MJ was way richer from the Nike and commercial revenues, not to mention he just got done with Space Jam and had a whole line of **** he was selling including underwear and cologne.

On top of that we know that living with MJ on the road wasn’t cheap. He was baiting guys into bets and lived a certain life-style.

So again, just at the moment in time, I could see Pippen being pretty frustrated with everybody - particularly Krause, but little bit of MJ on the down-low. I think that’s why MJ kinda scolded him for it and told him he’s not doing the right thing, with the big picture in mind.

Yeah MJ was better but if you had to break it down, he and Pippen shared a 50/50 load up to that point. In a given year, if you’re making $2.5m and he’s making $30m (and it’s the same the next season, with him going up to $33m and you standing pat at 2.5), and you have a limited guarantee of a great long-term deal (he was eligible for back surgery and hitting 30)... I can sense there was an underlying resentment, even though in the end he respected MJ enough to give it his all and help win that last ring.

[rtblues]

Reinsdorf gets off way too easy as they put most of it on Krause. Jerry was the owner and Krause's boss and could have stepped in to stop all of it. He didn't. More like a tacit, silent approval. Hoping they pile on Reinsdorf a bit more in the ensuing episodes.

And we all know why too. He's a cheap ass and knew that he was going to have pay people so, he went with the Krause plan.
Krause was a guy who reached his level of incompetence. He should have never become anything more than a scout, and he was actually a baseball scout when Krause tagged him for the Bulls job. Krause was a miserable little man with an ego that matched the size of his insecurity complex.

[troza]

I think you need to wait until we get into the 1998 Playoffs footage before we all sit here and blame the Jerrys for breaking up the dynasty too soon.

You're gonna see a team that pretty much limped into those 1998 Finals after a brutal ECF series with Indiana. Game 7 of that series is as close as it got to someone de-throning the Jordan Bulls.

That game was TIED with 5 min to go.

It was 83-85 with 2:00 to go.

This is the footage I'm dying to see if they have it. If they have film of this team during this series showing them with some fear of losing.

That 1998 Pacers ECF series better be a whole episode because that was epic stuff. Mark Jackson, Regie Miller, Fred Hoiberg, Jalen Rose and an aging Chris Mullin with coach Larry Bird. I hope they sat down with all those guys and interviewed them on this series.

They had us on the ropes, I want to hear those guys talk about that game. Esp Jalen Rose who played garbage min in that game but loves to talk. I've heard Reggie talk about it and how it was a missed oppertunity for him.

After that Jazz series and knowing this whole season was an all out leave it all on the table to win it -

You''ll stop thinking they should have gone on.
You'll understand why they called the whole season a Last Dance - before it even started.

Even if they weren't as dominant as before, even if they finally had a series that could have lost (one series after all those years)... we are saying that after they won 62 games (with Pippen injured in the first half of the season... with Pippen they got a record that, when we extrapolate to 82 games, we would get around 66 wins)

We faced the Jazz (that eliminated Rockets, Spurs and Lakers... old Olajuwon, Barkley and Drexler, Past prime but still very good David Robinson and rookie Tim Duncan and prime Shaq, young Kobe and some other good players) without home court advantage and if Pippen wasn't injured on the final game, there would be no doubt about the winner.

So, 72 wins, 69 wins and a projected 66 wins with an healthy Pippen and we were on last legs? Doubt it.

Maybe we don't win more but this tells me (looking at the level of Pippen and Jordan after that season) that we would contend at least 2 years. And Lakers, Blazzers... and even Spurs would be weaker than they were... when on East Pacers and Knicks were not much younger than us... and the 76ers weren't that good...

[Jello Biafra]

Reinsdorf gets off way too easy as they put most of it on Krause. Jerry was the owner and Krause's boss and could have stepped in to stop all of it. He didn't. More like a tacit, silent approval. Hoping they pile on Reinsdorf a bit more in the ensuing episodes.

And we all know why too. He's a cheap ass and knew that he was going to have pay people so, he went with the Krause plan.
Krause was a guy who reached his level of incompetence. He should have never become anything more than a scout, and he was actually a baseball scout when Krause tagged him for the Bulls job. Krause was a miserable little man with an ego that matched the size of his insecurity complex.

Reinsdorf made the stupidest mistake a business owner could make. He chose Jerry Krause over Micheal Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson. He thought Krause was more valuable than three hall of famers. Stupid. It's all at Reinsdorf's feet. He wrote the checks. He made the ultimate decisions. He needs to own up the the mistake. Thank god he is stepping aside. When you have the GOAT, you don't chase him out the door.

[Sedale Threatt]

Reinsdorf gets off way too easy as they put most of it on Krause. Jerry was the owner and Krause's boss and could have stepped in to stop all of it. He didn't. More like a tacit, silent approval. Hoping they pile on Reinsdorf a bit more in the ensuing episodes.

And we all know why too. He's a cheap ass and knew that he was going to have pay people so, he went with the Krause plan.
Krause was a guy who reached his level of incompetence. He should have never become anything more than a scout, and he was actually a baseball scout when Krause tagged him for the Bulls job. Krause was a miserable little man with an ego that matched the size of his insecurity complex.

Yeah, that was my overarching takeaway. He essentially sided with his GM over one of the most popular and successful pro athletes in the history of the world. Not just the NBA, but the WORLD. Your chances of ever having a phenomenon like that on your team are minuscule. If you are that incredibly lucky, you do everything you possibly can to squeeze every last drop of blood from that rock, if not to continue pursuing titles then at the very least to continue watching and enjoying him (and of course, benefiting from financially).

Krause obviously deserved loyalty for his performance, and it's an admirable trait to treat employees like that. (Although, as you all know far better than me, probably to a fault.) Krause obviously had the single greatest building block in NBA history, but that same history is also littered with teams who couldn't do it with theirs studs -- the Royals (Oscar), the Timberwolves (Garnett), the Thunder (KD, Russ AND Harden), the Jazz (Stockton and Malone), the 76ers (Barkley), and on and on. Not only did Krause do that, he did it again after Grant and others left. So I get it.

But holy sh*t, once Jordan definitively, unequivocally hitches his wagon to Phil, how do you not step into the middle of that and shut it down immediately? I get long-term thinking and wanting Krause in place, given what he'd done so far, to oversee the rebuild that was right around the corner. But as an owner, you can't even let it get to that point to begin with, and he's extremely lucky he hasn't gotten way, way more sh*t for that. It's hard to imagine how he wasn't run out of town.

[johnnyvann840]

I think you need to wait until we get into the 1998 Playoffs footage before we all sit here and blame the Jerrys for breaking up the dynasty too soon.

You're gonna see a team that pretty much limped into those 1998 Finals after a brutal ECF series with Indiana. Game 7 of that series is as close as it got to someone de-throning the Jordan Bulls.

That game was TIED with 5 min to go.

It was 83-85 with 2:00 to go.

This is the footage I'm dying to see if they have it. If they have film of this team during this series showing them with some fear of losing.

That 1998 Pacers ECF series better be a whole episode because that was epic stuff. Mark Jackson, Regie Miller, Fred Hoiberg, Jalen Rose and an aging Chris Mullin with coach Larry Bird. I hope they sat down with all those guys and interviewed them on this series.

They had us on the ropes, I want to hear those guys talk about that game. Esp Jalen Rose who played garbage min in that game but loves to talk. I've heard Reggie talk about it and how it was a missed oppertunity for him.

After that Jazz series and knowing this whole season was an all out leave it all on the table to win it -

You''ll stop thinking they should have gone on.
You'll understand why they called the whole season a Last Dance - before it even started.

I posted earlier in the thread about that Indy series. I remember thinking it was over and I hated Reggie Miller. In the 1st Q of that game it looked like the Bulls were just in for a blowout. Pacers went up 13 in the 1st Q and were just making everything. I think they started our 9-9 or something. But, yeah, even the end was in question until the last few seconds of that game because you knew Reggie could hit a 3. That was the toughest series of the entire dynasty... some might say it was when the Knicks took them 7 games in the CSF's but the Bulls blew them out in game 7 and it was never in doubt. But, that Pacers series was something. That team has been criminally underrated for years.

[johnnyvann840]

BTW, had no idea that Bob Costas used to call WGN games with Johnny Red Kerr. How great of a telecast must that have been.

How bizarre was that seeing a 22 yr old Bob Costas on WGN?


- actually Costas was a little older than that... 25-26? When he was 22 he had just started in St. Louis doing ABA games for the "Spirit of St. Louis" franchise. Came to WGN in Chicago in 1979 when he was 26 and started doing Bulls games with Red.

[2018C3]

It's interesting to see everyone's take on all this and see all the back and forth debates.

Enough time has passed that I bet few minds get changed on the topic, as everyone is arguing over 20 year old long held positions. Who knows what all happened, it will be interesting to see where this series goes. I think its cool that new material is being released, and once finished I look forward to see if my own opinion changes in any way.

For those of us who lived through this era, its neat to re-cap all these past memories. Next in line someone should, remake the 85-86 Bears season.

Wow, people my age were sure spoiled. We were able to grow up in the best period of sports Chicago has ever experienced. How many people get to watch all the major cities sports teams win championships? To top it all off, we even got to see the Sting.

A total of 13 City championships in the lifetime of being a Chicago Sports fan.

[johnnyvann840]

What I want to know is how in the F did they hold on to all this never before seen footage for 20 years? I mean, you would think in 2008 after ten years had gone by they would have done something for the 10 year anniversary. It's really unbelievable that this has been held back for so long.

[jake_swivel]

Especially given that Krause hired him out of completely no where. There's so much of his life that Jackson owes Krause from that perspective.

No. Krause didn’t hire Phil as a favor. Krause hired phil because Krause thought hiring Phil would improve the team and the franchise, and in so doing, increase Krause’s career trajectory/earning potential/gratify his own ego.

Those are the reasons people make business decisions, which that was. Phil owed Krause nothing because it wasn’t Krause doing it out of kindness.

That’s a real important distinction.

[dougthonus]

No. Krause didn’t hire Phil as a favor. Krause hired phil because Krause thought hiring Phil would improve the team and the franchise, and in so doing, increase Krause’s career trajectory/earning potential/gratify his own ego.

Those are the reasons people make business decisions, which that was. Phil owed Krause nothing because it wasn’t Krause doing it out of kindness.

That’s a real important distinction.

A few important caveats here:
1: Based on Phil's background he would not have been a hot hire in general if on the open market and may not have ever gotten a head coaching gig or may not have gotten one for quite some time.

2: If he didn't get hired to coach the greatest player in the history of basketball, his overall success would have been much less.

3: There's a fair chance that if Krause doesn't hire Phil, his career earnings are negligble compared to what they ended up being, like he only makes 5% of the money because his future jobs were based on his success with Jordan.

4: While Phil absolutely helped Krause as well, and Krause did not do this as a charity case, there's a dramatically higher chance that some other coach wins many titles with Jordan than Phil wins many titles in whatever situation he first found himself in (if he were able to get a head coaching gig at all which might have been iffy in most orgs given he wasn't a big X/Os guy).

5: Given how Jackson went out of his way to turn the team (and the populace) against Krause, there's actually a fair chance Krause's legacy would have been greater (even with fewer titles) without Jackson than it was with him.

So yes, nothing about Jerry hiring Phil was out of the kindness of his heart, it was absolutely self motivated because he believed in him, but Jackson owes a hell of a lot more to Krause than the other way around.

[Peelboy]

Reinsdorf gets off way too easy as they put most of it on Krause. Jerry was the owner and Krause's boss and could have stepped in to stop all of it. He didn't. More like a tacit, silent approval. Hoping they pile on Reinsdorf a bit more in the ensuing episodes.

And we all know why too. He's a cheap ass and knew that he was going to have pay people so, he went with the Krause plan.
Krause was a guy who reached his level of incompetence. He should have never become anything more than a scout, and he was actually a baseball scout when Krause tagged him for the Bulls job. Krause was a miserable little man with an ego that matched the size of his insecurity complex.

Krause was arguably if not the best GM we have seen in a long time. He had MJ, but as someone noted, the league history is littered with all-time greats who weren't able to match anything close to the Bulls run. a series of brilliant moves including some panned at the time (Oakley-Cartwright, making PJ the coach, Pip trade, Kukoc, Rodman, etc). If that's "incompetence," then there's basically never been a competent GM.

IMO it's easy to say they should have rolled everything/one over. Which would have meant not only agreeing to do 1-year deals for MJ/PJ (since they offered PJ a multi-year deal and he stated he would not be a part of rebuilding), but also signing Pip to a big money long-term deal knowing you'd be eating the back end of that especially given his back surgery. I'd have opted to do that, but I don't think for a second that the instant it fell off the table they wouldn't have been crucified for not being able to maintain. And it was frankly part of the FOs job to plan for that.

Honestly, had they done the Pip for McGrady+#6+vets deal in 1997 that might have been the game changer. I know MJ kiboshed it and losing Pip (my favorite Bull of all time) would have been tough. But had you been able to get McGrady acclimated in the first half of the season (the part Pip missed anyway), and bolstered the bench with another young player and other meaningful vets, its not impossible to see them winning a title and then having the groundwork for extending the run. (Again - I'd have played it safe and run it back, but it's not crazy to consider.)

[jake_swivel]

So yes, nothing about Jerry hiring Phil was out of the kindness of his heart, it was absolutely self motivated because he believed in him, but Jackson owes a hell of a lot more to Krause than the other way around.

None of those things matter. Neither of them owed anything to the other. That’s how friendships work, not business relationships.

[dougthonus]

None of those things matter. Neither of them owed anything to the other. That’s how friendships work, not business relationships.

Remove "owed" and replaced with "benefited"

Jackson benefited from Jerry Krause in absolutely unbelievably huge way when all was said and done.

Krause may or may not have benefited from Jackson when all was said and done.

[jake_swivel]

None of those things matter. Neither of them owed anything to the other. That’s how friendships work, not business relationships.

Remove "owed" and replaced with "benefited"

Jackson benefited from Jerry Krause in absolutely unbelievably huge way when all was said and done.

Krause may or may not have benefited from Jackson when all was said and done.

I’m good with that. It really is an important distinction between “owed” and “benefitted from”. The implication is that Phil was disloyal to Krause.

When management owes labor, they pay them with dollars, experience, and opportunity for advancement.

For labor to owe management, it means they serve out their contract. That’s it. Anything beyond that is a display for the benefit of future employment.

There often becomes a sentiment that management deserves loyalty, and labor will be benefitted down the line. That’s the sort of thinking that ends with a retirement party where they serve you a farewell Walmart cake and gift you a signed greeting card. Labor and management is an amoral struggle for wages versus services rendered.

[dougthonus]

I’m good with that. It really is an important distinction between “owed” and “benefitted from”. The implication is that Phil was disloyal to Krause.

When management owes labor, they pay them with dollars, experience, and opportunity for advancement.

For labor to owe management, it means they serve out their contract. That’s it. Anything beyond that is a display for the benefit of future employment.

There often becomes a sentiment that management deserves loyalty, and labor will be benefitted down the line. That’s the sort of thinking that ends with a retirement party where they serve you a farewell Walmart cake and gift you a signed greeting card. Labor and management is an amoral struggle for wages versus services rendered.

I agree it is a good semantic distinction.

I tend to attach a moralistic quality of 'owed' to someone that provides me a lot of benefits even if I have earned them when I feel the benefits I have earned have outweighed the benefits I've provided, but from a business perspective that gets dicey. From the company point of view there absolutely is no 'owed'.

From an interpersonal view of how we value relationships or look at how others should value relationships then there is, but then that isn't concrete at all and varies greatly.

[transplant]

Interesting discussion.

I was in my mid-40s during the Last Dance. At the time, I would have preferred that Reinsdorf allow the team, as Floyd put it, "die on its own" rather than be broken up. However, with an appreciation for the adage, "It's better to trade a player early than late," I could see how this principle could be applied to a team as well. As a result, I didn't see the break up as being at all irrational, but it was obvious as hell that it was going to be extremely unpopular.

I've read here that Reinsdorf was weak in giving in to Krause on the breakup. I don't buy this for a minute. Reinsdorf went with Krause because he agreed with him. Reinsdorf and Krause may have been ready to make the transition for different reasons (Reinsdorf may have been more focused on what it would cost to re-sign Pippen and Rodman...I don't think paying Jordan $36mil would have bothered him much), but if Reinsdorf had felt strongly that Krause was making a mistake on such an important decision for HIS organization, I can't get my mind around him saying "whatever you think is best, Krause."

I'm not too worried about how the documentary might negatively affect the current Bulls team. Sure, the media is being given a second chance to trash Reinsdorf and Krause, but that's because there's nothing current to talk about. It's an unexpected shower...pull out your umbrella and wait it out.