Shams: Lonzo for Okoro

[sco]

As bad as people are talking about him, think it's about 70/30 he starts the season at SF. Looking at our roster, if Matas is starting at PF don't see a guy in front of Okoro at SF. MAYBE Williams. They better not start Giddey, White, Huerter.

Oh hell no. Williams is a net negative. Let's bring him off the bench where he at least has a chance to bumslay if he's up for it, or at least not impact us so badly. I agree with you, Infinity. A line up of Giddey, White and Huerter would be disastrous defensively. Don't start us off with that. Okoro is one of the rare SFs who has the athleticism for defending PGs in a pittbull Scottie Pippen style. This front office may have turned the corner when it comes to understanding how to rebuild. I am growing increasingly optimistic about our moves... which is quite an unfamiliar feeling at this point.

I'll be optimistic Okoro can be like Javonte Green with a better corner 3...at least Billy won't start him at PF ahead of Matas.

[MGB8]

Someone posted this highlight vid of Okoro from last season. Focuses on offense, not D, though:

https://youtu.be/l8e5ODVlEn4

To me, anyway, this highlight vid screams JAG - at least on offense. I actually think someone with a lot of film could put together a more exciting vid for Dalen Terry…

Okuro is almost a prototypical JAG. The Bulls could have got a guy like him for the MLE.

MGB8 and CF, I gotta tell you that you're being too harsh, brothers but which is unusual because you're both usually spot on. After watching those highlights, in which Okoro frequently found himself pushing the pace and finishing at the rim, I was inspired to find out whether Okoro had a strong finishing ability in reality... and the answer is a resounding YES! In shots at the rim (0-3 feet), his FG percentage this past season, he's converting at a 65.9 % rate. His career finishing percentage is just a little worse at 64.4 % at the rim. If he can be the dude in these highlights more often and push the pace, and get to the rim, he's gonna be an offensive force. I'm actually excited about this kid now, when I didn't expect to be. EDIT: He's a JAG on the perimeter, unfortunately. That much cannot be denied. It's not his game.

Finishing ability is something - even if context dependent, at least it shows he isn’t taking bad shots at the rim. Just didn’t see anything that makes me think: “ooh, there’s some untapped potential here on offense.” A finisher at the wing who won’t and shouldn’t do much other than get baskets from cuts, kick outs, and opportunity drives. Which is fine. Honestly, wish I found something on his D, especially POA.

Anyway, Dalen Terry converts a career 62% at the rim, and shoots at the rim a greater percentage of times. Julian Phillips career number is 61%, but last year was 65%. Both with similar or greater proportions there. THT is career 63%…. Not that Okoro has zero potential growth, or that the fit is poor, but there was just nothing that screamed “wow” on the vid.

[TheJordanRule]

Okuro is almost a prototypical JAG. The Bulls could have got a guy like him for the MLE.

MGB8 and CF, I gotta tell you that you're being too harsh, brothers but which is unusual because you're both usually spot on. After watching those highlights, in which Okoro frequently found himself pushing the pace and finishing at the rim, I was inspired to find out whether Okoro had a strong finishing ability in reality... and the answer is a resounding YES! In shots at the rim (0-3 feet), his FG percentage this past season, he's converting at a 65.9 % rate. His career finishing percentage is just a little worse at 64.4 % at the rim. If he can be the dude in these highlights more often and push the pace, and get to the rim, he's gonna be an offensive force. I'm actually excited about this kid now, when I didn't expect to be. EDIT: He's a JAG on the perimeter, unfortunately. That much cannot be denied. It's not his game.

Finishing ability is something - even if context dependent, at least it shows he isn’t taking bad shots at the rim. Just didn’t see anything that makes me think: “ooh, there’s some untapped potential here on offense.” A finisher at the wing who won’t and shouldn’t do much other than get baskets from cuts, kick outs, and opportunity drives. Which is fine. Honestly, wish I found something on his D, especially POA.

Anyway, Dalen Terry converts a career 62% at the rim, and shoots at the rim a greater percentage of times. Julian Phillips career number is 61%, but last year was 65%. Both with similar or greater proportions there. THT is career 63%…. Not that Okoro has zero potential growth, or that the fit is poor, but there was just nothing that screamed “wow” on the vid.

After reflecting on your post, MGB8, I realized that you're right. If Terry's number are also in the 60s, I don't know how what Okoro offers on offense can be considered any type of edge. And the video was thoroughly unimpressive. I hope Okoro can continue to increase his finishing efficiency. I hope Okoro is more than another Terry clone. Sadly, we don't need that. Yikes.

[Infinity2152]

I'll say this. I think AK likes to target guys in their 20's who are underrated and underplayed on their team over adding draft picks. Value wise, he's done pretty well. I'm talking about guys like Tre Jones, Huerter, Collins, but also Giddey, Caruso, THT, and a few others. Re-signed Coby for cheap in his early 20's worked out great. He's trying to squeeze the last drop out of Pat will, Terry and Phillips. Don't think he's looking to add more 19-20 year olds after adding Noa.

There's a chance Okoro really pans out on this roster. He was a number 5 pick, good defensive player. The argument that you could have gotten an equal player in FA falls short if Okoro is actually good. I really didn't want to trade Ball, we need young, athletic, defensive players that can actually get on the floor and he's one of them. If he's just a solid defensive role player the next two years, that's a good return.

Ball's not a big price to pay if AK thinks Okoro can have a Caruso/Huerter like jump in his game.

[MissileMike]

I'll say this. I think AK likes to target guys in their 20's who are underrated and underplayed on their team over adding draft picks. Value wise, he's done pretty well. I'm talking about guys like Tre Jones, Huerter, Collins, but also Giddey, Caruso, THT, and a few others. Re-signed Coby for cheap in his early 20's worked out great. He's trying to squeeze the last drop out of Pat will, Terry and Phillips. Don't think he's looking to add more 19-20 year olds after adding Noa.

There's a chance Okoro really pans out on this roster. He was a number 5 pick, good defensive player. The argument that you could have gotten an equal player in FA falls short if Okoro is actually good. I really didn't want to trade Ball, we need young, athletic, defensive players that can actually get on the floor and he's one of them. If he's just a solid defensive role player the next two years, that's a good return.

Ball's not a big price to pay if AK thinks Okoro can have a Caruso/Huerter like jump in his game.

He definitely has a type: young players who are squeezed out of minutes on a good team.

[sco]

I'll say this. I think AK likes to target guys in their 20's who are underrated and underplayed on their team over adding draft picks. Value wise, he's done pretty well. I'm talking about guys like Tre Jones, Huerter, Collins, but also Giddey, Caruso, THT, and a few others. Re-signed Coby for cheap in his early 20's worked out great. He's trying to squeeze the last drop out of Pat will, Terry and Phillips. Don't think he's looking to add more 19-20 year olds after adding Noa.

There's a chance Okoro really pans out on this roster. He was a number 5 pick, good defensive player. The argument that you could have gotten an equal player in FA falls short if Okoro is actually good. I really didn't want to trade Ball, we need young, athletic, defensive players that can actually get on the floor and he's one of them. If he's just a solid defensive role player the next two years, that's a good return.

Ball's not a big price to pay if AK thinks Okoro can have a Caruso/Huerter like jump in his game.

He definitely has a type: young players who are squeezed out of minutes on a good team.

I've always been a fan of those pick-ups.

[PaKii94]

Y'all are too focused on the offense. He's paid like a role player, got traded for a role player, and is a role player. However he's a young role player with underlying impact. No one should be expecting substantial improvement. The hope is incremental improvement to have a valuable role player cheap contract

[GuardianEnzo]

He's a very good wing defender, I don't think there's any question of that. Decent 3-baller in low volume. We have many needs, he fills one of them.

[sco]

Y'all are too focused on the offense. He's paid like a role player, got traded for a role player, and is a role player. However he's a young role player with underlying impact. No one should be expecting substantial improvement. The hope is incremental improvement to have a valuable role player cheap contract

100% this. The whole 1st pick issue aside, I like that we are replacing him with a very good defensive PG in Tre and got back a guy who is a very good wing defender. We're turning his 20mpg of good defense into more than twice that. We can play either guy next to Coby and Giddey, and now have some playable defenders.

[MGB8]

MGB8 and CF, I gotta tell you that you're being too harsh, brothers but which is unusual because you're both usually spot on. After watching those highlights, in which Okoro frequently found himself pushing the pace and finishing at the rim, I was inspired to find out whether Okoro had a strong finishing ability in reality... and the answer is a resounding YES! In shots at the rim (0-3 feet), his FG percentage this past season, he's converting at a 65.9 % rate. His career finishing percentage is just a little worse at 64.4 % at the rim. If he can be the dude in these highlights more often and push the pace, and get to the rim, he's gonna be an offensive force. I'm actually excited about this kid now, when I didn't expect to be. EDIT: He's a JAG on the perimeter, unfortunately. That much cannot be denied. It's not his game.

Finishing ability is something - even if context dependent, at least it shows he isn’t taking bad shots at the rim. Just didn’t see anything that makes me think: “ooh, there’s some untapped potential here on offense.” A finisher at the wing who won’t and shouldn’t do much other than get baskets from cuts, kick outs, and opportunity drives. Which is fine. Honestly, wish I found something on his D, especially POA.

Anyway, Dalen Terry converts a career 62% at the rim, and shoots at the rim a greater percentage of times. Julian Phillips career number is 61%, but last year was 65%. Both with similar or greater proportions there. THT is career 63%…. Not that Okoro has zero potential growth, or that the fit is poor, but there was just nothing that screamed “wow” on the vid.

After reflecting on your post, MGB8, I realized that you're right. If Terry's number are also in the 60s, I don't know how what Okoro offers on offense can be considered any type of edge. And the video was thoroughly unimpressive. I hope Okoro can continue to increase his finishing efficiency. I hope Okoro is more than another Terry clone. Sadly, we don't need that. Yikes.

Hopefully he brings some ability at the POA perimeter D. Even if he is a more athletic Bogans, we still haven’t figured the POA D out well since Caruso-Healthy Lonzo-Javonte

[MGB8]

Defensive highlights…. maybe not special… but good!

Watch on YouTube

[MGB8]

Another caveat, though. Of the guys who played meaningful minutes, per 82games (and confirmed by bball reference) Lonzo had the 2nd best - and in all likelihood the best, raw +/- (on/off) of any player. +9.3!

Huerter actually had the best - but looking at 82 games, that sure appears to be compared to the entire season (so including all time pre-trade as “off” - a huge caveat on that number given differing short term trends / circumstances).

Anyway, Okoro also had a positive on-off, but much more mid per 82games (+3), (a better, actually team leading +5.9 per bball reference, which makes me doubt that calculation a bit, especially given his essentially flat minutes and some other indicators).

But, regardless, and as we’re well aware, the impact of Lonzo’s BBall Iq on both ends was huge - despite his shooting last season being sub-par. I worry that the Bulls are going to miss that, both on court and moreso in the locker room / w/ the young guys.

[kodo]

This guy sucks. 37% from 3, but it's propped up by his left corner volume and %; he's garbage from the right corner and above the break. 11 dunks in 55 games last year, low assists, steals and blocks.... he's literally Keith Bogans.

Lonzo is a 34% 3P shooter and atrocious attacking the rim, 52%.

Okoro has scored at 59%, 60%, 61% TS last 3 seasons. Lonzo is a career 51% TS player. One is well above league average while the other is one of the worst in the league. Offensively there is no comparison between the two, Lonzo is beyond worse on O.

Regardless, the value of both players is entirely on defense. Something the Bulls have been bad at, even with Caruso on the team. And for most of the season and all of last two seasons, Lonzo helped 0 with our defense.

[Ice Man]

I'll say this. I think AK likes to target guys in their 20's who are underrated and underplayed on their team over adding draft picks. Value wise, he's done pretty well. I'm talking about guys like Tre Jones, Huerter, Collins, but also Giddey, Caruso, THT, and a few others.

I hate to be the person praising AK, but there's logic behind this strategy, in the sense that as with new cars, young players lose value once they leave the lot. I've made this argument repeated with Giddey, who is likely to have a better NBA career than whatever draft pick (a #10? a #13?) would could have received for Caruso instead.

So, it's a good way of getting a lot of solid value players. But, of course, there is a catch -- that being the possibility of getting a #1 option by striking draft-day gold (Giannis, Kobe, Mailman, & Stockton, among others, all went in the mid to late teens).

[MissileMike]

I'll say this. I think AK likes to target guys in their 20's who are underrated and underplayed on their team over adding draft picks. Value wise, he's done pretty well. I'm talking about guys like Tre Jones, Huerter, Collins, but also Giddey, Caruso, THT, and a few others.

I hate to be the person praising AK, but there's logic behind this strategy, in the sense that as with new cars, young players lose value once they leave the lot. I've made this argument repeated with Giddey, who is likely to have a better NBA career than whatever draft pick (a #10? a #13?) would could have received for Caruso instead.

So, it's a good way of getting a lot of solid value players. But, of course, there is a catch -- that being the possibility of getting a #1 option by striking draft-day gold (Giannis, Kobe, Mailman, & Stockton, among others, all went in the mid to late teens).

Striking gold isn't even out of the question. OKC did it with SGA.

[TheJordanRule]

Finishing ability is something - even if context dependent, at least it shows he isn’t taking bad shots at the rim. Just didn’t see anything that makes me think: “ooh, there’s some untapped potential here on offense.” A finisher at the wing who won’t and shouldn’t do much other than get baskets from cuts, kick outs, and opportunity drives. Which is fine. Honestly, wish I found something on his D, especially POA.

Anyway, Dalen Terry converts a career 62% at the rim, and shoots at the rim a greater percentage of times. Julian Phillips career number is 61%, but last year was 65%. Both with similar or greater proportions there. THT is career 63%…. Not that Okoro has zero potential growth, or that the fit is poor, but there was just nothing that screamed “wow” on the vid.

After reflecting on your post, MGB8, I realized that you're right. If Terry's number are also in the 60s, I don't know how what Okoro offers on offense can be considered any type of edge. And the video was thoroughly unimpressive. I hope Okoro can continue to increase his finishing efficiency. I hope Okoro is more than another Terry clone. Sadly, we don't need that. Yikes.

Hopefully he brings some ability at the POA perimeter D. Even if he is a more athletic Bogans, we still haven’t figured the POA D out well since Caruso-Healthy Lonzo-Javonte

I love defense, MGB8 but if he's just athletic Bogans, he's gonna be out of the league. I mean that's where Terry is headed, brother. This kid's breakout is predicated on developing some goddamn offense. We can't afford a 4 on 5 situation on either end. Giddey loves the high flyers, so maybe the opportunity is there. Scouting reports criticize his jump shot mechanics, say his handle needs work, and improve accuracy from 3 point range, and all of that was from five years ago and is still true to this day. Has this kid done anything to develop beyond the level he was at in his rookie year? Work ethic shows itself over time. This kid may be a net positive on the floor, but where TF is the progress?

[Chi town]

https://youtu.be/lpF7MhQ775w?si=msd3ZX7ranQtw_hQ

Great video from a Cavs writer. Good insights. He believes Okoro can be an elite 1-3 defender. He’s not as good guarding up.

This is great news as we now have Tre and Okoro that can defend really well the 1s and 2s of the league. This helps Coby and Giddey a bunch.

[League Circles]

Y'all are too focused on the offense. He's paid like a role player, got traded for a role player, and is a role player. However he's a young role player with underlying impact. No one should be expecting substantial improvement. The hope is incremental improvement to have a valuable role player cheap contract

100% this. The whole 1st pick issue aside, I like that we are replacing him with a very good defensive PG in Tre and got back a guy who is a very good wing defender. We're turning his 20mpg of good defense into more than twice that. We can play either guy next to Coby and Giddey, and now have some playable defenders.

How would you or others compare his defense to that of Ayo or Ball against opposing 2s and 3s? I was looking for a big upgrade there. Ayo is fine on D but not really a game changer and undersized when guarding 3s. Ball is very good but unreliable from a durability standpoint, and Okoro is way younger. If it's truly a defensive upgrade from Ayo I like the move a lot.

[sco]

Y'all are too focused on the offense. He's paid like a role player, got traded for a role player, and is a role player. However he's a young role player with underlying impact. No one should be expecting substantial improvement. The hope is incremental improvement to have a valuable role player cheap contract

100% this. The whole 1st pick issue aside, I like that we are replacing him with a very good defensive PG in Tre and got back a guy who is a very good wing defender. We're turning his 20mpg of good defense into more than twice that. We can play either guy next to Coby and Giddey, and now have some playable defenders.

How would you or others compare his defense to that of Ayo or Ball against opposing 2s and 3s? I was looking for a big upgrade there. Ayo is fine on D but not really a game changer and undersized when guarding 3s. Ball is very good but unreliable from a durability standpoint, and Okoro is way younger. If it's truly a defensive upgrade from Ayo I like the move a lot.

I have Ball as a better defender of 2's and 3's because he is truly elite (but not durable at all), Ayo's defense (maybe hindered by injury or bulking up too much?) has really slipped since his rookie year to what's I'd call average (near Giddey's improved level), so I have Okora as above him. What I think will make a difference this year is having two guys who can give us very good POA defense in Okoro and Jones. IMO, Billy should be smart enough (not likely) to manage their minutes based on which position (PG for Jones/SG or SF for Okoro).

[League Circles]

100% this. The whole 1st pick issue aside, I like that we are replacing him with a very good defensive PG in Tre and got back a guy who is a very good wing defender. We're turning his 20mpg of good defense into more than twice that. We can play either guy next to Coby and Giddey, and now have some playable defenders.

How would you or others compare his defense to that of Ayo or Ball against opposing 2s and 3s? I was looking for a big upgrade there. Ayo is fine on D but not really a game changer and undersized when guarding 3s. Ball is very good but unreliable from a durability standpoint, and Okoro is way younger. If it's truly a defensive upgrade from Ayo I like the move a lot.

I have Ball as a better defender of 2's and 3's because he is truly elite (but not durable at all), Ayo's defense (maybe hindered by injury or bulking up too much?) has really slipped since his rookie year to what's I'd call average (near Giddey's improved level), so I have Okora as above him. What I think will make a difference this year is having two guys who can give us very good POA defense in Okoro and Jones. IMO, Billy should be smart enough (not likely) to manage their minutes based on which position (PG for Jones/SG or SF for Okoro).

I now think Okoro will be the most likely player to be our 5th starter. I think the deliberate targeting of him for valued Lonzo suggests that along with the reports of trade talks for Ayo. At the moment I've got to think frankly Ayo would be battling Huerter for a rotation spot.

I've got these guys all as locks for the rotation:

Coby
Jones
Okoro
Giddey
Patrick
Matas
Essengue

Plus two centers really only leaves one rotation spot open, most likely for Ayo or Huerter.