NBA Trade Thread #13

[leo921]

I understand the thinking of the AK trade for Okoro but think we can all agree it was a huge bust.
The other thing is that we have Okoro(11m) and Smith (9m) signed for next year taking up 20m of cap space that
can be used for trades/FA signings. One trade that I think can help this using our Port pick.

Bulls trade - Okoro/Smith/Port pick
Blazers trade - Thybulle/Williams

Blazers downgrade from Thybulle to Okoro in order to get there Port pick back. Williams has been/is injured and now get Smith
to be a playable backup 4/5 big for them.

For Bulls we upgrade to a much better defender and scorer in Thybulle, plus he is an 11m expiring but would be a good player to
resign. I think Thybulle and Matas would be crazy good together especially on defense. Williams is hurt as always, to me in this trade
Williams is just expiring money that we can but into good use as expiring salary/cap room.

this is the perfect AK trade:

instead of getting a 1st & an expiring for Lonzo, he trades him for Okoro, who he then has to use a [theoretical] 1st round pick to dump

More like the anti AK trade - turning a crap player into something useful (Thybulle) and extra cap space (williams). Upgrade the team now and later.

[Infinity2152]

Okoro's played a total of two regular season games while we were missing our top scorer and floor spacer. Maybe it's a LITTLE early to give up on him? Matas is 0-5 from 3 thru the same stretch, lol. Okoro's 0-3 so far, but he shot 37% last year and 39% the year before.

[leo921]

Okoro's played a total of two regular season games while we were missing our top scorer and floor spacer. Maybe it's a LITTLE early to give up on him?

Is that why his nickname is noscorio, and that was from the clevland fans who watched him for 4 years. If there is a chance to either upgrade him or turn him into cap space you do it for the good of the team

[Infinity2152]

Okoro's played a total of two regular season games while we were missing our top scorer and floor spacer. Maybe it's a LITTLE early to give up on him?

Is that why his nickname is noscorio, and that was from the clevland fans who watched him for 4 years. If there is a chance to either upgrade him or turn him into cap space you do it for the good of the team

He shot 37% from 3 last year and 39% from 3 the year before. He also played with guys that take a LOT of shots, Mitchell and Garland. He's $11 mill, a 3 and D player and the salary to match. bench money, not even sixth man and we're starting him. Same with his last team. They started "noscorio" a lot and won a lot of games. What type of scoring would you expect from a typical $11 mill 3 and D player? On the court with Giddey, White, Matas and Vucevic, how many shots do we really want Okoro to take? Coby averaged 15 shot attempts last year, Giddey 15, Vucevic 14, surely we want Matas to take 12-15.

25 yr old "NoScorio" shot 59%, 60% TS% the last two years, 6.1 and 9.4 pts/gm by the way. Caruso, who we all love and signed as the same type of 3 and D player to about the same money, averaged 6.4 pts and 5.5 pts the two years before we signed him at 26. His TS% was 55% and 53%. Was he "Caruscorio"?

[leo921]

Okoro's played a total of two regular season games while we were missing our top scorer and floor spacer. Maybe it's a LITTLE early to give up on him?

Is that why his nickname is noscorio, and that was from the clevland fans who watched him for 4 years. If there is a chance to either upgrade him or turn him into cap space you do it for the good of the team

He shot 37% from 3 last year and 39% from 3 the year before. He also played with guys that take a LOT of shots, Mitchell and Garland. He's $11 mill, a 3 and D player and the salary to match. bench money, not even sixth man and we're starting him. Same with his last team. They started "noscorio" a lot and won a lot of games. What type of scoring would you expect from a typical $11 mill 3 and D player? On the court with Giddey, White, Matas and Vucevic, how many shots do we really want Okoro to take? Coby averaged 15 shot attempts last year, Giddey 15, Vucevic 14, surely we want Matas to take 12-15.

25 yr old "NoScorio" shot 59%, 60% TS% the last two years, 6.1 and 9.4 pts/gm by the way. Caruso, who we all love and signed as the same type of 3 and D player to about the same money, averaged 6.4 pts and 5.5 pts the two years before we signed him at 26. His TS% was 55% and 53%. Was he "Caruscorio"?

Terry and Phillips are taller cheaper and can both defend while providing better shooting. Like I said you can def get a better 3 and D player in that 11m range, I already named one in Thybulle

[Infinity2152]

Is that why his nickname is noscorio, and that was from the clevland fans who watched him for 4 years. If there is a chance to either upgrade him or turn him into cap space you do it for the good of the team

He shot 37% from 3 last year and 39% from 3 the year before. He also played with guys that take a LOT of shots, Mitchell and Garland. He's $11 mill, a 3 and D player and the salary to match. bench money, not even sixth man and we're starting him. Same with his last team. They started "noscorio" a lot and won a lot of games. What type of scoring would you expect from a typical $11 mill 3 and D player? On the court with Giddey, White, Matas and Vucevic, how many shots do we really want Okoro to take? Coby averaged 15 shot attempts last year, Giddey 15, Vucevic 14, surely we want Matas to take 12-15.

25 yr old "NoScorio" shot 59%, 60% TS% the last two years, 6.1 and 9.4 pts/gm by the way. Caruso, who we all love and signed as the same type of 3 and D player to about the same money, averaged 6.4 pts and 5.5 pts the two years before we signed him at 26. His TS% was 55% and 53%. Was he "Caruscorio"?

Terry and Phillips are taller cheaper and can both defend while providing better shooting. Like I said you can def get a better 3 and D player in that 11m range, I already named one in Thybulle

28 year old Thybulle; career average 5 pts, 1assts, 2 rbs, 35% from 3 Thybulle? Vs 25 year old career average 8 pts, 3rbs, 2 assts 35% from 3 Okoro? Thybulle's a better defender ok, better player at the same age is highly debatable. At 25 Thybulle was averaging 4.1 pts, 2 rbs, .7 assists. Theres no upside potential with a 28 year old. We should try him out as our potential future starter at SF?

I think a 25 year old fits our team better than a 28 year old when they're not far from being the same player. If Billy thought Terry or Phillips were better than Okoro, they would get his minutes, lmao! They won't, and it's not because of salary. He's starting, it's questionable if they even get bench minutes when we have a healthy team.

Terry's career TS% is 53%, 30% from 3. Phillips is 56% TS%, 32% from three. Better shooting? When? They're the worst shooters on the team, except maybe Collins, our center.

[wolffy]

You can't compare Okoro defensively to Caruso. Alex is much better

[Infinity2152]

Didn't compare Okoro defensively to Caruso. I said they were both 3 and D players and listed their offensive stats who signed for about the same amount. Is that wrong? Caruso's offensive stats were worse than Okoro's and he was older. Caruso ended up being worth more than the $11 mill he signed for because of that defense, an $11 mill 3 and D player I'd expect replacement level role player. Caruso just got $20 mill, Okoro has a lot of work to get to that.

Let's not act like Caruso was a known defensive mastermind when we signed him, he got famous as a defender in Chicago. He was $11 mill good in LA. We gave him more than two games to prove his worth. Imagine Okoro will look better when Coby and Collins are back and take a lot of scoring pressure off. Would be great if he gets to Caruso's level, that's not necessary to be worth $11 mill, imo.

[dawhizz]

I wonder if the Rockets come calling to the Bulls when they start looking for a ball handler with the FVV injury. Between Tre, Ayo, and Coby, the Bull shave some guys who can replicate some of the stuff FVV theoretically gave them. Whether AK will be willing to trade is another story.

[ScrantonBulls]

I wonder if the Rockets come calling to the Bulls when they start looking for a ball handler with the FVV injury. Between Tre, Ayo, and Coby, the Bull shave some guys who can replicate some of the stuff FVV theoretically gave them. Whether AK will be willing to trade is another story.

Knowing AK, he probably thinks this team is a championship contender. I don't think he will want to sacrifice that guard depth - unless there is another position with a serious need. I would love to get a better defensive center like Myles Turner, but those types are difficult to find.

[Infinity2152]

Center and SG are the only two positions we should be prioritizing right now, imo. Pat Will is looking good so far. We have three solid candidates for starting SF, Okoro, Williams, and Noa. All are young lottery picks. They don't have to be superstars, but one should be starter level. Lock Matas in at PF, Giddey at PG for now. Let's say we have faith that ONE of them will look like starting level SF. Don't need a lot of scoring there.

We have Coby White, Vucevic, Huerter, Collins, Smith, Carter, Terry, Phillips, Ayo plus picks, including Portland first to basically fill two spots. We almost can't spend too much getting stars at those two positions right now and this is when we should do it. While we have the trade pieces.

So trade for Devin Booker, Bam Adebayo, Myles Turner, KAT, Anunoby, Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Jaylen Brown, and don't worry about the money so much. We can add a max player in two spots, and the max player doesn't have to be perfect. We have Tre Jones and Noa as value on the bench.

Bam Adebayo, favorite trade target and I would overpay to get him. Set at center for years, and I only need SG. Tough, been learning and playing defense with Jimmy for years, just perfect fit with Giddey and Matas. Great vet age for this young team.

Then find a way to replace Coby White with Derrick White, Devin Booker or Jaylen Brown. Or re-sign Coby, if one of those three above looks like a legit SF by next year a lineup of Giddey, Coby, SF, Matas, Adebayo with Jones, Ayo, Noa, 2026 pick, etc on the bench looks 4th seed at least, maybe top 2.

[dpucane]

I understand the thinking of the AK trade for Okoro but think we can all agree it was a huge bust.
The other thing is that we have Okoro(11m) and Smith (9m) signed for next year taking up 20m of cap space that
can be used for trades/FA signings. One trade that I think can help this using our Port pick.

Bulls trade - Okoro/Smith/Port pick
Blazers trade - Thybulle/Williams

Blazers downgrade from Thybulle to Okoro in order to get there Port pick back. Williams has been/is injured and now get Smith
to be a playable backup 4/5 big for them.

For Bulls we upgrade to a much better defender and scorer in Thybulle, plus he is an 11m expiring but would be a good player to
resign. I think Thybulle and Matas would be crazy good together especially on defense. Williams is hurt as always, to me in this trade
Williams is just expiring money that we can but into good use as expiring salary/cap room.

this is the perfect AK trade:

instead of getting a 1st & an expiring for Lonzo, he trades him for Okoro, who he then has to use a [theoretical] 1st round pick to dump

More like the anti AK trade - turning a crap player into something useful (Thybulle) and extra cap space (williams). Upgrade the team now and later.

They could have already had an expiring and a more useful player at 18 without giving up a pick. You've essentially just traded lonzo and a first for cap space you would have had anyway

[ScrantonBulls]

Center and SG are the only two positions we should be prioritizing right now, imo. Pat Will is looking good so far. We have three solid candidates for starting SF, Okoro, Williams, and Noa. All are young lottery picks. They don't have to be superstars, but one should be starter level. Lock Matas in at PF, Giddey at PG for now. Let's say we have faith that ONE of them will look like starting level SF. Don't need a lot of scoring there.

We have Coby White, Vucevic, Huerter, Collins, Smith, Carter, Terry, Phillips, Ayo plus picks, including Portland first to basically fill two spots. We almost can't spend too much getting stars at those two positions right now and this is when we should do it. While we have the trade pieces.

So trade for Devin Booker, Bam Adebayo, Myles Turner, KAT, Anunoby, Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Jaylen Brown, and don't worry about the money so much. We can add a max player in two spots, and the max player doesn't have to be perfect. We have Tre Jones and Noa as value on the bench.

Bam Adebayo, favorite trade target and I would overpay to get him. Set at center for years, and I only need SG. Tough, been learning and playing defense with Jimmy for years, just perfect fit with Giddey and Matas. Great vet age for this young team.

Then find a way to replace Coby White with Derrick White, Devin Booker or Jaylen Brown. Or re-sign Coby, if one of those three above looks like a legit SF by next year a lineup of Giddey, Coby, SF, Matas, Adebayo with Jones, Ayo, Noa, 2026 pick, etc on the bench looks 4th seed at least, maybe top 2.

Noa at SF? To me, he's a really raw C/PF. He'd be a disaster at SF in my opinion. I don't think he'd be playable at all. He's barely playable at C/PF right now.

Would love to trade for Adebayo though. Absolute perfect fit.

[Infinity2152]

I mean, basically we have Noa, Okoro, Williams to fill one forward position, assuming Matas has the other one locked. We just need one to become starter level, not star level. Either could play with Matas at forward. Noa's 19. He's expected to be really raw right now, and he's going to add weight. Agree he'd probably be better at PF, but he's so young, don't know what skills he'll develop just based on his appearance now. We ran Lauri at PF for years, for instance. Not really locked into naming forward positions with Matas and Pat, they could play either depending on their weight at the time imo.

Why would Noa be unplayable at SF, particularly if he can shoot? He''ll easily be able to score over his defenders, will be long and quick enough to contain most of them, great shot blocking for position. Ballhandling would be the only real concern, and he could feast on catch and shoots, cutting and alley oops. Most SF's or smaller won't be able to guard him without fouling if he gets it in the painted area.

[MikeDC]

Okoro's played a total of two regular season games while we were missing our top scorer and floor spacer. Maybe it's a LITTLE early to give up on him?

Is that why his nickname is noscorio, and that was from the clevland fans who watched him for 4 years. If there is a chance to either upgrade him or turn him into cap space you do it for the good of the team

Generally I agree, he's got a long track record of being offensively inept and I'd be glad to dump him if we could, but giving up a first is not something I'd entertain for that little extra cap space and a very marginal upgrade.

He's bad, but it's just not difference-making bad. To put it another way, if some other team offered the Bulls a 1st for taking a $10M cap hit next year, I'd gladly take the first. There's nobody I'm excited to offer in free agency, so we'd actually be better off renting our space for picks.

[ChettheJet]

It's only three games in but Okoro might end up being the Keith Bogans of this team. Start every game, not much production, role player, just holds down the position with the starters until the bench comes in for better matchups.

I think the Bulls are going to be watching for other teams that get off to poor starts, like 20 games in, who think they need more scoring. Those would be the candidates for a Vucevic trade, teams not getting the production at center or have an undersized center they can slide over to the PF. The Bulls keep an eye on which teams look like disappointments, what they have to trade in terms of picks and be ready when they call.

[Infinity2152]

I'm just wondering if guys made up their minds on Okoro and refuse to even give him a chance. He's played three games, and we were missing two of our best players, both scorers which is Okoro's weakness. For $11 mill, what are the expectations? Certainly not starter. What does bad on offense mean, he takes 5-6 shots a game and hits a high % of them? He would probably be most teams first guard defender off the bench, but he's been starting most of his career and playing against $30-$50 mil starters. He'd have to vastly exceed his contract value to look like a good NBA starter, again Caruso got $20 mill to come off the bench as a 3 and D player.

Are people saying he's not good enough to be in the NBA, not good enough to be on the Bulls, or not good enough to get $11 mill? All the knocks on him in Cleveland, he's averaged around 25 mins/gm for Cleveland, they must have thought something of him. This reminds me of the arguments about Giddey to start last year.

Non-rookie guys in that $10-$12 mill range are guys like Royce Oneale, Thybulle, Luke Kennard, Maxi Kleiber, Mike Conley, Luke Kornet, Gabe Vincent, Divencenzo, Valenciunas, TJ McConnell, Aaron Neismith. Would take Neismith and Divencenzo in front of Okoro, I'd take the chance on Okoro over the rest.

[MikeDC]

I'm just wondering if guys made up their minds on Okoro and refuse to even give him a chance. He's played three hundred sixty-three games

Fixed that for ya

For $11 mill, what are the expectations?

My expectation is to not commit that kind of money to, like, the 8th-10th guy in my rotation. I want that money to be easily tradeable.

Non-rookie guys in that $10-$12 mill range are...

In every range there are always lots of overpaid guys.

There are, however, a lot of cheaper guys I would prefer to have. Starting with nobody. Okoro is completely replaceable. If he disappeared tomorrow, Huerter, Ayo, Jones, and Pat would sop up his minutes and we'd probably be better for it.

But we can't just cut him because it'd be a sunk cost. And he's not useless, he's just not worth what he's paid. He's worth maybe half of what he's paid. If I had to pick between him and Tre, Ayo, or Huerter, I'd take all of them first at their contracts. If we're just talking about whether he helps us win a game, I'd take Pat too.

Imagine he was a free agent and we were having a tryout with Okoro and a bunch of other FAs for the last roster spot. The other guys are James Wiseman, Jeremiah Robinson-Earl, Precious, Drew Timme, Tyler Smith, KJ Martin, Cody Martin, Keon Johnson, Marjohn Beachamp, Terence Davis... all FAs. Knowing that I already had plenty of guards, I'd probably take one of the young bigs instead of Okoro.

Basically, he's a replacement level player (literally, his career VORP is -0.2 and his seasonal avg is 0.0) on a contract that means he can't be replaced.

[Infinity2152]

I'm just wondering if guys made up their minds on Okoro and refuse to even give him a chance. He's played three hundred sixty-three games

Fixed that for ya

For $11 mill, what are the expectations?

My expectation is to not commit that kind of money to, like, the 8th-10th guy in my rotation. I want that money to be easily tradeable.

Non-rookie guys in that $10-$12 mill range are...

In every range there are always lots of overpaid guys.

There are, however, a lot of cheaper guys I would prefer to have. Starting with nobody. Okoro is completely replaceable. If he disappeared tomorrow, Huerter, Ayo, Jones, and Pat would sop up his minutes and we'd probably be better for it.

But we can't just cut him because it'd be a sunk cost. And he's not useless, he's just not worth what he's paid. He's worth maybe half of what he's paid. If I had to pick between him and Tre, Ayo, or Huerter, I'd take all of them first at their contracts. If we're just talking about whether he helps us win a game, I'd take Pat too.

Imagine he was a free agent and we were having a tryout with Okoro and a bunch of other FAs for the last roster spot. The other guys are James Wiseman, Jeremiah Robinson-Earl, Precious, Drew Timme, Tyler Smith, KJ Martin, Cody Martin, Keon Johnson, Marjohn Beachamp, Terence Davis... all FAs. Knowing that I already had plenty of guards, I'd probably take one of the young bigs instead of Okoro.

Basically, he's a replacement level player (literally, his career VORP is -0.2 and his seasonal avg is 0.0) on a contract that means he can't be replaced.

He's not the 8th-10h man in the rotation, though. He's starting. You can call him the 8th-10th most valuable player if you want, but he's starting with the top 5. When Coby comes back, he may still start with the top 5. His previous team didn't give him 8th-10th man minutes. In those 363 games, how often was he the 10th man? Sure, he's replaceable. Most $11 mill players are, and are older than 25 with less potential of getting better.

The NBA is not a shopping mall, you can't just pick the players you want, you build your team out of players you can get. All this talk about cap space, but nobody actually wants to spend money on any players. Now $11 million starters are overpaid, lol. All those other guys you all want, Billy may not have even started them. Clearly Billy thinks he's good enough to start and his last coach did too. They had other players. If he only gets 20-24 minutes/gm, that's still sixth man minutes. Bargain at $11 mill. You're not getting a non-rookie that Billy would start for half of what Okoro makes, unless he's 40.

We traded Ball to fill a position of need, defensive guard type. Those other options lie Thybulle might not have been available for Ball. And Okoro could look good, playing 20 minutes or so after 25 or more games in our system with our players. It's a cheap, tradeable gamble on a young high draft pick. We were not getting a 25-year-old prospect with high VORP and high stats for Ball, lmao! We get a low-mid young player who has potential to be something.

We're not getting much with $11 mill extra cap space either. Cap space is the least of our problems, we can clear more than almost any team in the league this summer. Of those guys you listed, I'd probably take Okoro. I think we needed a defensive guard/SF type who can play big minutes more than what those guys would bring off the bench, if we're starting Coby and Giddey. He's not being started as a guard, but he can certainly guard better than Coby and Giddey. If he was $5 mill right now, what would it really change?