OT- The Last Dance documentary

[transplant]

I just heard the full SCORE interview with Tim Floyd. Every SCORE host has been ridiculing Floyd because he was defensive (he was), but I found him completely believable. I knew Krause wanted to hire Floyd after he felt the Bulls run was over, but I never knew that he seriously wanted to replace Jackson with Floyd in the middle of the second 3-peat. Both Floyd and Reinsdorf felt it was premature. Reinsdorf encouraged Floyd to share his feelings with Krause which Floyd did. Reinsdorf did what a smart manager does in using someone else to close off what he believed to be a bad decision so he didn't have to use his veto power (Reinsdorf has always taken pride in letting his people do their jobs).

I spent a lot of effort in defending Krause back in the day. This Floyd interview makes me feel foolish. Yes, Krause made a lot of great moves that contributed to the Bulls dynasty, but his judgement in attempting to replace Jackson with an unproven Floyd before '98 is simply indefensible.

[kingkirk]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-tim-floyd-says-jerry-krause-wanted-to-dismantle-michael-jordan-era-bulls-earlier-than-known/

If true, this really paints Reinsdorf as an exceptionally weak owner. He's in charge. Why was he unable to control the situation and Krause here? It's just absurd that he has to use a guy that's not even with the organization to reason with Krause. Even more absurd that Krause was ready to send Jackson packing after he won 72 games.

I know Krause is being painted as the villian in episodes I & II but my overwhelming feeling watching it was Krause could have stopped everything whenever he wanted, but ultimately chose Krause over everyone else.

It's truly insane upon reflection.

Whether it was because he didn't care, was more into baseball, or some other reason, he just allowed this to all happen.

He could have easily stepped in earlier and canned someone, namely Krause.

I presume you mean JR could have stopped everything.

Yep, my bad. Too many damn Jerry's around this damn franchise.

[dice]

Honestly, I felt worse for Pippen after reading the Jordan Rules.

But after episode 2, hearing Wennington talk about how Pip crossed the line with Krause on the bus, hearing Reinsdorf explain that Pippen's agents and he advised against the 7-year deal, and now looking up the actual salary figures (relative), it really does seem like Pippen was just acting salty about making WAY less dough than MJ, and less than 5 role-players.

Furthermore, I don't think he'd ever admit it, but I think Jordan's $30m 1y contract made him really jealous. He's Robin making #2 man cash all this time, MJ's making $4m to his 2.5m -- all of a sudden MJ signs for 10x as much as you for the same year of work? That's why I think Pippen said **** it with the late surgery. That's just the vibe I caught by hearing that. One of things I didn't think about back when it happened, but seeing the documentary and piecing it together, I think he was very frustrated with the whole situation (which was basically his doing/financial agreement) and he mainly took it out on Krause, cause it was easy. Sure as hell wasn't gonna tell MJ to take a price hike for a Pippen charity.

jordan made an even bigger mistake than pippen did contract-wise (8 years vs 7). and complained less than scottie did. i kinda doubt that pippen was jealous of a guy cashing in who had to wait 8 years when he had only waited 6. if i was him, i would've seen what MJ got and been encouraged by the possibilities that awaited me if i continued to be healthy and perform

Granted Krause was in bad form making his trade conversations public

was it krause that leaked it? given his secrecy i find that unlikely. went to great lengths to keep the initial meeting w/ tim floyd secret, for example

i do find it rather astonishing that JR asked FLOYD to tell krause how ridiculous it was to be undermining phil like that

Yeah but MJ was way richer from the Nike and commercial revenues, not to mention he just got done with Space Jam and had a whole line of **** he was selling including underwear and cologne.

On top of that we know that living with MJ on the road wasn’t cheap. He was baiting guys into bets and lived a certain life-style.

So again, just at the moment in time, I could see Pippen being pretty frustrated with everybody - particularly Krause, but little bit of MJ on the down-low. I think that’s why MJ kinda scolded him for it and told him he’s not doing the right thing, with the big picture in mind.

Yeah MJ was better but if you had to break it down, he and Pippen shared a 50/50 load up to that point. In a given year, if you’re making $2.5m and he’s making $30m (and it’s the same the next season, with him going up to $33m and you standing pat at 2.5), and you have a limited guarantee of a great long-term deal (he was eligible for back surgery and hitting 30)... I can sense there was an underlying resentment, even though in the end he respected MJ enough to give it his all and help win that last ring.

pippen didn't give it his all to the team, though, given that he delayed surgery as a contract ploy

if MJ doesn't hit that last shot in utah, they're underdogs on the road in a game 7 because scottie delayed surgery

[dice]

I just heard the full SCORE interview with Tim Floyd. Every SCORE host has been ridiculing Floyd because he was defensive (he was), but I found him completely believable. I knew Krause wanted to hire Floyd after he felt the Bulls run was over, but I never knew that he seriously wanted to replace Jackson with Floyd in the middle of the second 3-peat. Both Floyd and Reinsdorf felt it was premature. Reinsdorf encouraged Floyd to share his feelings with Krause which Floyd did. Reinsdorf did what a smart manager does in using someone else to close off what he believed to be a bad decision so he didn't have to use his veto power (Reinsdorf has always taken pride in letting his people do their jobs).

I spent a lot of effort in defending Krause back in the day. This Floyd interview makes me feel foolish. Yes, Krause made a lot of great moves that contributed to the Bulls dynasty, but his judgement in attempting to replace Jackson with an unproven Floyd before '98 is simply indefensible.

agree with most of that, but not with the idea that it was smart for JR to avoid saying "yeah, jerry, phil's not going anywhere until jordan is gone." him failing to do that allowed a lot of unnecessary turmoil

[WindyCityBorn]

What I want to know is how in the F did they hold on to all this never before seen footage for 20 years? I mean, you would think in 2008 after ten years had gone by they would have done something for the 10 year anniversary. It's really unbelievable that this has been held back for so long.

Apparently they needed Jordan's permission. He waited 20 years to give it.

[dumbell78]

What I want to know is how in the F did they hold on to all this never before seen footage for 20 years? I mean, you would think in 2008 after ten years had gone by they would have done something for the 10 year anniversary. It's really unbelievable that this has been held back for so long.

MJ wouldn't allow it, he had the final say and he didn't say yes until 2016.

[wickywack]

I just heard the full SCORE interview with Tim Floyd. Every SCORE host has been ridiculing Floyd because he was defensive (he was), but I found him completely believable. I knew Krause wanted to hire Floyd after he felt the Bulls run was over, but I never knew that he seriously wanted to replace Jackson with Floyd in the middle of the second 3-peat. Both Floyd and Reinsdorf felt it was premature. Reinsdorf encouraged Floyd to share his feelings with Krause which Floyd did. Reinsdorf did what a smart manager does in using someone else to close off what he believed to be a bad decision so he didn't have to use his veto power (Reinsdorf has always taken pride in letting his people do their jobs).

You might be giving Reinsdorf too much credit. Every time Jordan or Jackson negotiated Reinsdorf directly on contracts, he was effectively cutting Krause out of the loop - i.e., not letting him do his job. When Reinsdorf decided to bring the team back in 97 (and apparently 96), he wasn't letting Krause do his job. Krause's opinions were strong and well-known. When he was circumvented, he was undermined.

Reinsdorf should have made a clear decision: either back Krause or let him go in 96 or 97. Instead, he kept him on damaged. I don't think he did Krause a favor here. If Krause gently departs in 96 or 97, he's still in the HOF, still gets credit for all the championships, and doesn't get saddled with the blame on dismantling the team. I actually think he would have landed a plum GM job elsewhere with his 97 resume. Instead, he left in 03 as a pariah.

[fleet]

Burrell was just on NBA radio XM. Says don’t blame MJ, a lot of that doesn’t take into context jokes etc. Also, MJ appreciates his work. They golf together, and that clip got him tons of publicity. Also he says, for his part, things get juicer soon. That clip was only the start.

[fleet]

Kerr says the team understood Scottie’s position. Burrell said the same

[dumbell78]

I just heard the full SCORE interview with Tim Floyd. Every SCORE host has been ridiculing Floyd because he was defensive (he was), but I found him completely believable. I knew Krause wanted to hire Floyd after he felt the Bulls run was over, but I never knew that he seriously wanted to replace Jackson with Floyd in the middle of the second 3-peat. Both Floyd and Reinsdorf felt it was premature. Reinsdorf encouraged Floyd to share his feelings with Krause which Floyd did. Reinsdorf did what a smart manager does in using someone else to close off what he believed to be a bad decision so he didn't have to use his veto power (Reinsdorf has always taken pride in letting his people do their jobs).

I spent a lot of effort in defending Krause back in the day. This Floyd interview makes me feel foolish. Yes, Krause made a lot of great moves that contributed to the Bulls dynasty, but his judgement in attempting to replace Jackson with an unproven Floyd before '98 is simply indefensible.

Yeah wanting to fire PJ after 96 is shocking and unforgivable. I never knew that small nugget. Krause comes off so stupid and petty right there. You think if there was ever a time for JR to move on from Krause it was that day. A normal owner most likely says to Krause to get over it or you're moving on. Instead JR let it fester for another two years!!!

[fleet]

As an aside, if you don’t ever listen to Eddie Johnson and Justin Turmine on NBA today you’re missing out on some of the best and funniest radio in any genre. The way those 2 go at each other is so good.

[JordansBulls]

What I want to know is how in the F did they hold on to all this never before seen footage for 20 years? I mean, you would think in 2008 after ten years had gone by they would have done something for the 10 year anniversary. It's really unbelievable that this has been held back for so long.

MJ wouldn't allow it, he had the final say and he didn't say yes until 2016.

Also wouldn't had made sense until they all had been inducted into the hall of fame.

[kulaz3000]

Burrell was just on NBA radio XM. Says don’t blame MJ, a lot of that doesn’t take into context jokes etc. Also, MJ appreciates his work. They golf together, and that clip got him tons of publicity. Also he says, for his part, things get juicer soon. That clip was only the start.

Yeah, not sure why people would get worked up about that scene in particular. MJ was clearly just messing around.

It was more his random and unncessary jabs every time he crossed paths with Krause which I thought borderlined on bullying to me.

[Ccwatercraft]

Finally finished episode 2, really enjoying the hell out of this doc.

[dice]

What I want to know is how in the F did they hold on to all this never before seen footage for 20 years? I mean, you would think in 2008 after ten years had gone by they would have done something for the 10 year anniversary. It's really unbelievable that this has been held back for so long.

MJ wouldn't allow it, he had the final say and he didn't say yes until 2016.

Also wouldn't had made sense until they all had been inducted into the hall of fame.

i think that the best part of the pitch made to MJ was that it was a good time to do this because there are kids walking around in MJ's shoes now who aren't particularly familiar with his playing days

that sales pitch took place on the same day lebron and the cavs held their championship victory parade...coincidence that MJ said yes just as lebron's legacy was reaching a new zenith?

[The Evidence]

We're "playing the result"....and looking too closely at the "optics".

If some Rico Suave Pat Riley type flipped Pippen early for T-Mac, Kemp, or the Boston Haul, etc..... we'd be worshipping that GM like a genius adonis.

Instead we're ripping a Miserable Short Fat dude for breaking up a GOAT team.

Instead we're all sycophantically ripping a dead dude because MJ, Pip, and Phil all hate the same guy.

"Aging stars are the worst players to coach" because they can't acknowledge the fact that they're at the end.

All of this player bitterness is exactly a carbon copy of KG and Pierce's ironic bitterness when Ainge broke up the Celtics.

Sure they weren't coming off a Title, but it was clear they were done. And yet they threw their tantrums.

Ainge's moves worked out better than Krause's, but I don't fault Krause for the logic.

98 was the most impressive run for me, because we should not have won.

I don't think we win in 99, 00, or beyond.

All of this blame game nonsense is just theatrical hysteria.

[kulaz3000]

We're "playing the result"....and looking too closely at the "optics".

If some Rico Suave Pat Riley type flipped Pippen early for T-Mac, Kemp, or the Boston Haul, etc..... we'd be worshipping that GM like a genius adonis.

Instead we're ripping a Miserable Short Fat dude for breaking up a GOAT team.

Instead we're all sycophantically ripping a dead dude because MJ, Pip, and Phil all hate the same guy.

"Aging stars are the worst players to coach" because they can't acknowledge the fact that they're at the end.

All of this player bitterness is exactly a carbon copy of KG and Pierce's ironic bitterness when Ainge broke up the Celtics.

Sure they weren't coming off a Title, but it was clear they were done. And yet they threw their tantrums.

Ainge's moves worked out better than Krause's, but I don't fault Krause for the logic.

98 was the most impressive run for me, because we should not have won.

I don't think we win in 99, 00, or beyond.

All of this blame game nonsense is just theatrical hysteria.

While I get where you're coming from, and quite frankly in most cases I wouldn't think differently, but we are talking about a dynasty. The greatest player and arguably the greatest head coach and number 2 player in NBA history. A team which almost single handidly catapulted the league into the mamoth money making machine it is today. They deserved to ride it out for as long as they damn wanted to until all 4 wheels fell off if they wanted to, if any group of players and head coach deserved it, it was those 3.

As MJ said it himself in a press conference (in the documentary), teams rebuild for decades with nothing in return, and you have a dynasty albiet in the twighlight years, you stick with it for as long as they want to, and once they decide to call it quits is when you pivot. Krause without question let his ego get the better of him, and though I agree it is a little tasteless that they were ragging on him so much in the documentary (considering that Krause couldn't tell his side of the story), they were simply telling it how it was at the time.

[othawhitemeat]

We're "playing the result"....and looking too closely at the "optics".

If some Rico Suave Pat Riley type flipped Pippen early for T-Mac, Kemp, or the Boston Haul, etc..... we'd be worshipping that GM like a genius adonis.

Instead we're ripping a Miserable Short Fat dude for breaking up a GOAT team.

Instead we're all sycophantically ripping a dead dude because MJ, Pip, and Phil all hate the same guy.

"Aging stars are the worst players to coach" because they can't acknowledge the fact that they're at the end.

All of this player bitterness is exactly a carbon copy of KG and Pierce's ironic bitterness when Ainge broke up the Celtics.

Sure they weren't coming off a Title, but it was clear they were done. And yet they threw their tantrums.

Ainge's moves worked out better than Krause's, but I don't fault Krause for the logic.

98 was the most impressive run for me, because we should not have won.

I don't think we win in 99, 00, or beyond.

All of this blame game nonsense is just theatrical hysteria.

I think in 99 they could have won only because season was shortened, but you are correct in that they were going downhill.

[Susan]

We're "playing the result"....and looking too closely at the "optics".

If some Rico Suave Pat Riley type flipped Pippen early for T-Mac, Kemp, or the Boston Haul, etc..... we'd be worshipping that GM like a genius adonis.

Instead we're ripping a Miserable Short Fat dude for breaking up a GOAT team.

Instead we're all sycophantically ripping a dead dude because MJ, Pip, and Phil all hate the same guy.

"Aging stars are the worst players to coach" because they can't acknowledge the fact that they're at the end.

All of this player bitterness is exactly a carbon copy of KG and Pierce's ironic bitterness when Ainge broke up the Celtics.

Sure they weren't coming off a Title, but it was clear they were done. And yet they threw their tantrums.

Ainge's moves worked out better than Krause's, but I don't fault Krause for the logic.

98 was the most impressive run for me, because we should not have won.

I don't think we win in 99, 00, or beyond.

All of this blame game nonsense is just theatrical hysteria.

Ainge got a kings ransom for his mini dynasty breakup. Krause got nothing.

[Chi town]

What I’ve learned through 2 episodes...

JR is the luckiest SOB there is.

MJ falling to 3rd.

Hiring a baseball scout who asked to be GM of the Bulls.


Doesn’t get any luckier than that. Many other owners would have won 7 or even 8 titles. Would have paid Pippen to and straightened out Krause.